CommutAir and ALPA?

[What'sit2U]

Just wondering how the vote went?

 

[MJG]

Lost by thirteen votes.

 

[skootertrash]

SO let me get this straight. CAL ALPA allowed CA to almost double in size. Allowed the Express pilots to have jobs and the CA guys to upgrade and then they vote down ALPA?

What the hell is that all about?

 

[MJG]

That's what we're trying to figure out. Looks like another group of pilots who don't give a crap about anyone else but themselves.

 

[CA1900]

That's what we're trying to figure out. Looks like another group of pilots who don't give a crap about anyone else but themselves.

Easy there, big fella. 42% of us do give a crap about the bigger picture, and I hope you'll remember that before shooting all of us dirty looks. A lot of us worked very hard on this campaign, and are every bit as disappointed as you that it didn't work out as we had hoped. Many of us realize that joining ALPA would have been advantageous to both pilot groups.

And remember that many of those "no" votes came from the furloughed pilots from your company that now have jobs here thanks to ALPA. (A group of the furloughees just upgraded here, for heaven's sake!) Yes, I'm as baffled by the results as you are. Stunned, really.

To my co-workers who voted "no": You've officially given up your right to b*tch about anything at the company for the next 12 months, which is how long we'll have to wait if we want to try this again. You had your chance to work to make things better, and you've officially told management that you're happy with whatever they give you. You made your bed, now you get to sleep in it. Enjoy flying the bigger planes for the same 1989 Beech payscale.

To those that voted "yes": Thanks for giving a hoot. I hope we'll be able to try this again.

To those that didn't vote at all: That means you voted "No." There wasn't an option not to vote -- if you didn't call, it was a "no" vote. Hope you're comfortable with that.

Thanks to all parties for their patience.

 

[LaxPilot]

Kudos CA1900

It is sad that those who did not vote at all, lowered the bar for professional pilots everywhere.

The race to the bottom continues.

To those who vote yes and who were on the committe, I hope that ALPA national took note of who did it and those who worked in the shadows to make a vote possible.

Read the CALEX Formus. It very intresting.


I like what one pilot said, "... I did not receive a paper ballot, only a letter that had a phone number and code on it. The only proof that I have saying I voted was the time and day that I wrote on it."

YEAH, ......... RIGHT. That guy did not vote, he's only trying to cover his ass.

Yeah, and OJ is innocent and Clinton never cheated,
Give me a break !

 

[MJG]

CA1900,

You are correct, there were 65 of you who do give a crap about the future and for that I am grateful. Unfortunately you and the other 64 pilots that voted yes will be held "guilty by association". It's not fair and it's not professional. I will be the first to admit that. I certainly don't condone it but I can't stop it from happening either. But that's life, especially these days in the light of what MESA did for our industry. I can only hope that all ALPA pilots still treat you guys and gals the same as they did before the failed organizing campaign but I'm afraid we all know that won't happen. This thing has really rubbed many of my fellow pilots at XJET the wrong way and to know that there may very well have been furloughed XJET pilots working at CommutAir who voted no or didn't bother to vote, just adds fuel to the fire.

The only thing we can all do at this point is move on.

 

[Insatiable]

Is Mesa represented by ALPA?

 

[MJG]

Is Mesa represented by ALPA?

Affirmative........

 

[Insatiable]

....So, how did ALPA help them? They have union representation, and they signed a less than good contract. Why did ALPA let them do that? How could ALPA have helped Commutair? And, can ALPA truly help any regional airline?

 

[B190Captain]

They can't.

 

[MJG]

....So, how did ALPA help them? They have union representation, and they signed a less than good contract. Why did ALPA let them do that? How could ALPA have helped Commutair? And, can ALPA truly help any regional airline?

Because, believe it or not, their previous contract was so bad that this P.O.S. deal they just signed really was an improvement for them in many areas, most of all in their scope language. Problem is that many of the gains they made are about the same, maybe just slightly more, than what most of us have already via our current 5-7 year old C.B.A. s. So as far as raising the bar for the rest of us, well..........

ALPA let them do that because for THEM it was a decent deal. They were all bent over a table about to be J.O.'s Biatch via "Freedumb Air" if they didn't work something out. Their agreement ended "Freedumb Air" and restored C.C. Air pilots to their rightful place in the MESA system. So it was a win for them in several areas. A win for them not for the rest of us.

ALPA could have helped CommutAir in many ways, more than I can list. For example, if said CommutAir pilot balls one up at the end of a runway some day, he/she is pretty much on their own when it comes to defending their pilot certificate and their livelihood. Not to mention if a pax decided to sue the pilot for whatever they could. Also their management could decide tommorrow to furlough half the pilots over there to the street, that basically already happened a couple years back. There's not much their pilots could do about it. Not saying ALPA is the cure for everything but it's sure nice to have big brother in your corner when the times get tough.

Can ALPA truely help any "regional" airline you ask. Well ask any Eagle pilot about the grievance they just won that restored some of their pilots to the left seat. And when Comair pilots were forced to walk the picket lines it was ALPA who provided nearly $1400 a month in strike benefits to their pilots. It was ALPA that restored 2 PAN AM J-31 pilots to their jobs after they had been fired for refusing to violate FAR duty time limits. So you tell me. I could go on and on.

Like I said ALPA is not the cure for everything, but eventually every pilot group gets tired of getting their teeth kidked in on a regular basis. That being the case, I'll take ALPA any day over the alternative: Nothing.

 

[BLWME]

If Commute Air voted ALPA then they could have Voted in a SCAB as President for their MEC.

 

[UPSFO]

I used to work at CommutAir a few years back and unless things have changed quite a bit, it was a great place to work! I've been with a number of companies and they treated me better than any other. CommutAir was the only non-union company I've worked for.

I've read some statements on this board that are inconsistent with my experience there. Perhaps things have changed since I left, but I'll share a few observations with you and those that are currently there can judge.

- A good friend had an altitude bust while operating as FO there. He and the captain where defended by the company's attorney at the company's expense.
-I was investigated for a potential violatation relating to deicing. I later learned that the DO took a strong stand against the FAA and LOI was dropped.
-When I had a family problem at home, I was told to go home, take care of my family, and return when I was ready, at full pay.
-When I told the DO my first child was due a month in advance, she told me the company would do whatever it took to get me there, if it should happen while I was on the road. She even said they would fly an empty plane back to Plattsburgh if necessary.
-I wasn't there when they furloughed, but it was my understanding that they held several job fairs and helped many of the guys get jobs. I've never heard of that happening anywhere although I think some unions did buy their guys arinc memberships.

I know pay is an issue but there are certain economic realities. When the ecomomy was good, we were making real good money with overtime and profit share. Some of the guys were making $80K for flying a 19 seater! As far as the ESOP problem, I'm not happy with that but then again, as a former United employee, I was forced to liquidate my UAL ESOP this week as a result of some bankruptcy law. It was once valued at $40k but I was forced to sell it and got about $227!

I also have a hard time buying the argument that CommutAir's growth can be credited to ALPA! I'm out of the loop on this one but correct me if I'm wrong. COEX wants to get rid of their 19 seaters so they've subcontracted CommutAir to handle the smaller markets that wouldn't be profitable for an RJ. It's win-win for both companies. ALPA allowed the deal to go through but they didn't create the deal. Nor would it cost them any jobs as COEX was getting rid of those routes. ALPA did a great job at protecting the jobs of the furloughed guys with this program though. I thought everyone at CommutAir would be real happy to be at a company that's growing while most others are in retrenchment! Upgrades in under a year is virtually unheard of now adays.

So what's my point? I never fealt like there was a need for a union there because I was treated well and payed commensurate to other 19 seaters. I'm a strong supporter of unions when they are necessary and a staunch supporter of the union at my current job. Without the union, I wouldn't stay here. There are so many scheduling and safety issues that would go unaddressed in the absence of our union. They recently saved 100 jobs when the company threatened to needlessly furlough these guys.

Unions are great when needed but sometimes can ruin a good thing when not needed. Just my opinion...blast away!

 

[CA1900]

I used to work at CommutAir a few years back and unless things have changed quite a bit, it was a great place to work!

I'll keep it brief and just say "Yes," things have changed quite a bit. Schedules are awful. There is no overtime POSSIBLE -- you're hard-pressed to get your 16 days to add up to the minimum (around 64-69 hours). All the domiciles except three closed (although we've now added CLE). Profit sharing has been nonexistent for years.

It's still a fun job, but it's not the company you left. Not by a long shot.

As for why we wanted the union, I'll just say this: Pay was way down on the list of things we wanted changed. Most of the changes we wanted related to scheduling's carte blanche to screw with our lives, and all the unpaid work (deadheading, etc.) that we do. Seniority is regularly disregarded during the bidding process. The biggest change we sought was to have people paid by years at the company, not years in seat -- we have fourth-year guys and first-year guys paid only $1.20 apart.

Thankfully safety issues have never been a concern; the company's always been terrific in that regard.

But as I said, it's not the same place you left. A union wasn't necessary then -- it really IS now. I wish that weren't the case, but it really is.

Thanks for taking an interest. Hopefully we can try again next year if we're still around.

 

[UPSFO]

Sorry to hear that!

 

[NEDude]

That's what we're trying to figure out. Looks like another group of pilots who don't give a crap about anyone else but themselves.

How was this vote about anyone other than Commutair? How does it affect anyone else?

I was a supporter of the effort here, and am disappointed that it didn't happen. But I fail to see how our own internal issues are anyone elses business.

And don't give me this crap about ALPA being a 'brotherhood' of pilots. There is so much internal bickering within ALPA it is crazy. I don't see a big warm happy family at USAirways (mainline vs whollyowned - whollyowned vs. non whollyowned - everyone vs Mesa). I don't see one at Delta either (RJDC) And now the United family is starting to talk about jets for jobs. Where is the harmony and caring about everyone else?

And if you fly an RJ, don't even dare talk about "raising the bar". Tell me this - how is pulling a 737 off a route, furloughing the crew, and then paying an RJ crew a third of the 737 crew to fly the same route "raising the standard"? The RJ is the single greatest threat to pilots income and lifestyle the industry has ever seen. Yet every RJ pilot who belongs to ALPA thinks they are raising the bar. I can introduce you to thousands of furloughed mainline pilots who would argue with you. Just because you got your foot in the door doesn't mean you are helping. If you took an RJ job for anything less than major airline pay, you are guilty of lowering the standard of this industry. Just because you are fighting for higher pay now doesn't mean anything, you have already done the damage.

This vote was about CommutAir and CommutAir only. And obviously a majority of CommutAir pilots didn't feel ALPA could help them. It is disappointing for those of us who wanted it. But please do not make this out to be anything more than what it was. CommutAir not voting in ALPA is not going to affect the industry. Flying an RJ around for less than major airline pay has done far more damage to the piloting profession than the CommutAir pilot group could ever come close to doing by not voting in ALPA.

 

[mckpickle]

Hey if the CA guys want to stay non union thats fine and dandy with me. The thing that puts a hair across my a$$ is that one of the main reasons it failed was because some of our pilots spearheaded the campaign against ALPA.


The same ALPA that negotiated jobs for them in the first place. The same ALPA that facilitated the expansion of CA into the CLE market. Had CA not expanded then I doubt there would have been as much growth over the last year.

I hope the union brings Article VIII charges against them for their actions.

My point is that since CA is doing flying that was previously done by our pilots in our airplanes it would be nice to be able to sit down with representitives of the CA pilot group and work out a common strategy to bennefit everyone. Now we, and CA are just CAL's beotch with no way to work together for a common goal.

 

[George Jetson]

The same ALPA that negotiated jobs for them in the first place. The same ALPA that facilitated the expansion of CA into the CLE market. Had CA not expanded then I doubt there would have been as much growth over the last year.

The same ALPA who also negotiated that when the furloughed pilots (including the Commutair XJT pilots) came back to XJT, they would not incur the required 6 month waiting period prior to receiving health benefits. The same ALPA who paid for medical benefits for some of those Commutair guys while they were on furlough prior to their going over to Commutair. Yep...it stings....get them jobs...double the size of the airline...make them all Captains in 6-12 months...yep...sweet, thanks CAL ALPA furloughed CA pilots.

GJ

 

[MJG]

How was this vote about anyone other than Commutair? How does it affect anyone else?

Because it says to all other airline management teams that here is a group of pilots who are willing to work without union representation. Who are willing not to complain when we need to cut their pay and their days off so that we as management can continue to make our beloved six figure salaries. Who won't complain when we need to furlough half of them to the street to make ends meet. Who basically will let us do whatever it takes to make our company work. Boy these sure are a special breed of pilots. They must have very flexible lives, unmarried with no families who really don't need an income to live on. Can't wait till our own employee groups walk out on us cause we can just surely hire these types of pilots since there seem to be more and more of them these days.

 

[NEDude]

I would buy your arguments if any of it were true.

Give me an example of unions preventing furloughs. A no-furlough clause certainly hasn't helped the Delta pilots out. ALPA hasn't prevented furloughs at United, USAirways, Continental, Northwest, Eagle, ExpressJet, or anywhere else. If they can't and haven't prevented furloughs at these big airlines, what on earth makes you think they would have tried, or been able, to prevent furloughs at Commutair two years ago? I mean come on and get real here.

I supported ALPA here because I think we do need a unified voice in some issues. But let's not go overboard on what ALPA can and will do. CommutAir has never been a union carrier in its 14 years of existence. And in those 14 years it has never grown to a size where it has been able to be used as leverage against a union. The pay, lifestyle and benefits have always been average or better for our equipment type. I do think that things have gone downhill a bit and that is why I supported ALPA. But we are not, and have never been a bunch of bottom feeders who steal flying from everyone. I can think of more than just a couple of ALPA carriers who do fit that mold. In fact I can think of a union carrier that charges its F/Os $20,000 for the opportunity.

So I guess I have to ask the question. Is it better to be a union employee and work more, for less pay and benefits, and be used as leverage to drive down salaries in the industry and steal other unionized carriers flying (ie Mesa)? Or is it better to be non-union and have industry average pay, benefits and work rules and thus unable to be used as effective leverage?

Again I ask the question - how does this affect anyone outside of CommutAir? Nobody has yet shown any real reason as to how it can. I am disappointed in our pilot group for how the vote went. But let's not blow this out of proportion and draw conclusions that just don't exist. Being an ALPA carrier does not, and cannot, prevent any airline from furloughing or becoming a bottom feeder who lowers industry pay and becoming a threat to other unionized carriers.

 

[BLWME]

NEDude,

You have hit the nail on the head,

The Commutair Vote has zero impact on other pilot groups.

The majority of people that are pissed are from Xpress jet and from the CalAlpa MEC. They are pissed because they voted to give furloughed XpressJet pilots health benis and argued to give them first option for hiring at CA. They feel betrayed that all.

Hell they want some pilots brought up on ArticleVII charges, AINT GOING TO HAPPEN. they are just blowing off steam.

 

[MJG]

Give me an example of unions preventing furloughs.

OK since you asked: How about when CALAPA successfully negotiated No-Fly lines with XJET management further preventing additional furloughs that would have happened. Since then no additional XJET pilots have been put on the street.

 

[rubberducky]

"

Tell me this = how is pulling a 737 off a route, furloughing the crew, and then paying an RJ crew a third of the 737 crewto fly the same route

While I somewhat agree with statement, it raises the question. Are you not doing the same thing by flying 1900s on routes that COEX could have put ERJs on for higher pay?

RD

"splash and GO"

 

[walkthasky]

.

By discussing on this board and interacting with other pilots you are making it everyones business. I assume thats why we chat on this board. I used to work for CommutAir. Good place to work. Left there over a year ago, and lifestyle was pretty good. I know some of you want to rush ALPA in, but i miss being able to commute on both sides of a 2 day trip. You can forget that with any other airline. Anywhere from 4 - 6 days straight and youre LUCKY if you can commute on one side of the trip. I also miss building my own line with whatever is leftover from trips assigned to other pilots. I admit the pay did suck at commutair, but youre flying 19 seaters. I recall 2nd year pay around $20 /hour (at commutair). The company i fly for only pays $2.50 more for a 29 seater (ALPA carrier). Like i said the pay sucks, but it sucks everywhere, we are all underpaid, But i thought lifestyle was pretty good at CommutAir. However, I have been out of the loop for 13/14 months, things do change. I'm not sure how good or bad ALPA would have made things for you guys. Its really nice to have representation (somewhat), but it could also be a disadvantage. I wish you guys a lot of luck especially with that ESOP thing going on.
my .02

 

[NEDude]

OK since you asked: How about when CALAPA successfully negotiated No-Fly lines with XJET management further preventing additional furloughs that would have happened. Since then no additional XJET pilots have been put on the street.

Of course none of it had anything to do with the 32.4% increase in ASMs, the 13.7% increase in block hours, the 10.7% increase in departures, the addition of at least 2 new airplanes per month over the past year, or record load factors. No, none of that had anything to do with furloughs stopping.

 

[MJG]

Of course none of it had anything to do with the 32.4% increase in ASMs, the 13.7% increase in block hours, the 10.7% increase in departures, the addition of at least 2 new airplanes per month over the past year, or record load factors. No, none of that had anything to do with furloughs stopping.

It did not. We wouldn't have been able to absorb all the flow-backs coming from CAL at the time even with new aircraft deliveries. You can't send down a couple hundred pilots to XJET all at once without having to furlough off the bottom of our list.

In fact we're still getting 3 new aircraft a month and flying more than we ever have. But yet our management just offered and awarded nearly 100 COLA's of either 4 or 6 months. COLAs get offered when the company forsees being overstaffed. If enough pilots opt for the COLA then the company may get away without having to furlough additional pilots this time around. Additional aircraft deliveries, increased ASMs and increased block hours don't always prevent furloughs from happening.