Communism Gaining Ground?

[Timebuilder]

The idea that it is possible to get completely random results from normal equations. Chaos theory also covers the reverse: finding the order in what appears to be completely random data.

From everything I have seen, chaos theory (that's theory, meaning that it's theoretical) does not invalidate the Law (Law a step up from theory) of Entrophy or the Laws of Thermodynamics.

While you can find some order in a chaos of gasses and other elements, no one has yet figured out, from a secular, scientific standpoint, how those elements became the world we have today.

 

[Timebuilder]

Any answer you give would negate any of your ideas so you decline to even make an educated guess.

It's always a bad idea to try and answer a flawed question.

We only can concieve of God in an extremely limited way. We have gained a little extra intellectual knowlege over the past several thousand years, but we aren't much better off in our understanding of God than most of the people that have gone before us.

The idea of God being infinitely powerful, and therefore able to create a rock so heavy that He cannot lift it, ignores that His strength is also infinite. At this point, our inability to actually conceive of the idea of the infinite limits our ability to answer the question we have asked.

It is nothing more than a clever puzzle for the limited human mind.

 

[Typhoon1244]

If you are going to duscuss anything to do with God and the Bible, you are going to have to accept the presence of all of what the Bible says.

Interesting.

If I'm going to discuss Tolkien, do I have to accept the presence of all of what The Lord of the Rings says?

 

[skyking1976]

While you can find some order in a chaos of gasses and other elements, no one has yet figured out, from a secular, scientific standpoint, how those elements became the world we have today.

True. However, there are supporting facts that lead to logical scientific conclusions in the direction of a naturally occurring randomness. It's like releasing two pennies simulateously into one of those gravity wishing wells. They might hit each other, or they might not. Chaos. Chance. The definition of entropy itself.

 

[skyking1976]

It is nothing more than a clever puzzle for the limited human mind.

It's actually simple. You have to accept the fact that there is no proof of God's infallibilty.


WOW... I just got the sudden urge to rent the movie "Dogma".

 

[Timebuilder]

It's actually simple. You have to accept the fact that there is no proof of God's infallibilty.

I think you are starting to understand, now.

God provides no "proof" of ANY kind. He instead demands faith.

"Proof", at this point, is not a part of His plan.

He knows the limitations of our minds, and knew before he formed us that this very question would be asked. He is content to let the faithful believe, and the others choose to not believe.

No proof required.

 

[Timebuilder]

Chaos. Chance. The definition of entropy itself.

Now, explain how those two pennies can be formed into a bust of Abraham Lincoln.

The answer is these pennies would have to be altered by several processes, guided by an intelligent designer.

Formed from two coins, an image of a president. It can't happen by random chance, and it can't happen with us, either.

 

[skyking1976]

No proof required.

For you maybe... I prefer to believe in the powers of rationality. And this is why we differ in views. You put your basis of argument on faith and faith alone. I put my basis of argument in fact and probable evidence.

Call the randomness and unknown in nature the work of God himself or chaos. But it is still quite unknown and unable to be explained... for now...

 

[Typhoon1244]

God provides no "proof" of ANY kind. He instead demands faith.

Yet he gave us a mind wired to demand proof. (Well, most of us, anyway...)

So he's either a trickster, incompetent, or doesn't exist the way you think "He" does.

 

[Crizz]

Impressive...

A thread about politics AND religion. All without (much) personal derogatory commentary.

Very interesting reading gentlemen.

 

[Timebuilder]

If I'm going to discuss Tolkien, do I have to accept the presence of all of what The Lord of the Rings says?

If you mean Tolkein the man, maybe. If you mean the created world of Tolkien, then certainly, yes.

Comic book writers borrowed a word from religion to describe the continuity from one issue to the next. It's cannon, or the abilities and demonstrated effects of various characters and objects used in the continuing thread of stories.

SpiderMan has always had an aunt May. Superman is always weakend by the presence of green kryptonite. Pofessor X's mental powers can be blocked by Magneto, and so on.

When I was a child, the letters section of a comic book was almost as much fun as the comic itself, as crafty readers would try to take the writers to task about something that apeared in a story line that they felt was incorrect or inconsistent. People try to do this with the Bible, too. You can have some really heated discussions based on what the Bible says. That's not God's "fault", it's just that we humans are a stiff necked bunch, and prone to try to take everything apart.

 

[skyking1976]

Now, explain how those two pennies can be formed into a bust of Abraham Lincoln.

I can see that happening. I can see copper ore being mined, melted and formed into copper sheets. I have been to the Denver mint and watched a press form the copper into a penny.

Just because you can't see or detect a force that allows the pennies to contact each other doesn't mean it is not there. Chaos is what interferes with assumed direction. Be it protein strands bumping in to each other in a primordial soup or dirt in a gravity well slightly altering the trajectory of a penny.

 

[skyking1976]

Impressive...

A thread about politics AND religion. All without (much) personal derogatory commentary.

Very interesting reading gentlemen.

I love these discussions. Any philosophical discussion is extremely mentally intriguing. I like it almost as much as the BBQ threads...

SK

 

[Timebuilder]

Yet he gave us a mind wired to demand proof.

To demand proof, sure.

He also wired us to accept by faith where He and His ways are concerned. In the garden, we decided that we wanted more than the realationship we had with God. Like Satan, we wanted more, so we listened to Satan and "ate" the fruit of the tree of knowlege. That was the beginning of our undoing, the unrestricted exploration of our freewill by going against God's instruction.

Whether you view this as a myth, an allegory, or an account which involved real "fruit", which is not so farfetched nowadays that we have a knowlege of pharmacology, it is an illustration of how we went astray: by disobedience. Now, the only way out of this swamp is salvation.

So, while we are indeed hard wired to seek knowlege, and proof where appropriate, we are also hard wired to seek God. That's why we have His Word. It's the POH for the human condition. Its our GPS, and the "direct to" is set to Him.

 

[skyking1976]

You can have some really heated discussions based on what the Bible says. That's not God's "fault", it's just that we humans are a stiff necked bunch, and prone to try to take everything apart.

YES!!!! I would love to learn of the existance of God. I don't want to just assume he is there because the Bible says he is. Until I can really, I mean touch, see, smell some evidence of God outside of the Bible, I cannot take his existance for granted.