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Communism Gaining Ground?

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it started heading South where taxes and payscales were lower. In Raleigh, NC in the 80s and 90s every thrid person you met was from Ohio/NY/WV and left to come here for work. The national minimum wage was the same in WV and Ohio as it was in NC. The EPA laws were the same. But with the tax breaks and generally lower payscales (nonunion at first) greed drove them down here.

Thank you for providing an excellent example of my point: costs drive production elsewhere. Nonunion and right to work states, along with good weather and a work ethic drove manufacturing from the northeast and northcentral regions.

What sent them is GREED my man.

What you call "greed" is simply a reaction to changing costs. How many lawsuits do you see in Asia becuase there are offensive calendars on the wall of an office?

Thanks for the help in making my case.



As far as feminism is concerned, here are some core principles, taken from signs seen at rallys:

"A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle"

"free abortions on demand"

"wicca for free abortions"

"Socialist workers for abortion"

"lesbians unite for reproductive rights"

I guess that statement isn't too horribly far from the truth, isn't it?
 
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It's pretty simple in your little world

Disappointed in Timebuilder.

Heartened by Snakum.

I'm out.
 
Jobs leaving the US are like a criminal investigation. Those jobs had motive and opportunity.

Had they not had reason to leave, they would be right where they were.

Who wants to sew Wranglers, when you can get a check from the government for each of your illegitimate children?
 
Timebuilder said:
As far as feminism is concerned, here are some core principles, taken from signs seen at rallys...
How about Buchanan's Hitleresque speech at the '92 Republican convention? Was he representing the core ideals of his party?

Or can you admit that even within any party, there are liberals and conservatives...extremists?

How about David Duke? Staunch Republican. Can I use him as a model for the prototypical Republican?

How about Al Sharpton? Does he embody the ideals of the Democratic party?

The problem, T.B., is that your pendelum swung from full-scale left to full-scale right. You'd have a clearer view if you'd stabilized somewhere in the middle.
 
I don't know how we moved from a discussion of feminism to a comparison of various individuals making political statements. Maybe I missed something. That's happened before. :)

The feminist movement has some pretty well defined ideas that are accepted as gospel withing their ranks. That's what keeps them a marginal entity that the mainstream media holds up as "the opinion of women". They don't represent most women, and their ideas have done a great deal of harm to the American family.

In fact, the conservative group Concerned Women for America has far more members than NOW ever did, and it is growing, while NOW is shrinking.

However, you will never hear Katie Couric mention CWA, or interview their leaders.

Gee, I wonder why?
 
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I believe he compared the most vocal radical extremists of a group against the mainstream of that group, and noted how the former doesn't speak for the latter.

You agreed with him in the last sentence of your second paragraph.

---

It may be because I was raised in the filthy liberal commie indoctrination centers which are our public schools that I hold silly ideas like that women are people too, but I suspect most women also hold that opinion.
 
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You agreed with him in the last sentence of your second paragraph.


which was...

They don't represent most women, and their ideas have done a great deal of harm to the American family.

I don't follow you.

The feminist movement speaks for all of the members of the feminist movement. Is has a singular personality: the NOW organization. Other organizations that represent the views of women are not seen by NOW or the media as being a part of the feminist movement, and as such are deemed to receive no airing of their views. It is as if they don't even exist.

So, while you can have a democrat or a republican espouse a view which does not hold sway for the entire party, you cannot, by their own definition, have that occur in feminism. Because of this, if you suggest a view point that is not a part of the femininst line, as defined by NOW, you are not even a feminist.

Have I managed to make that difference clear?
 
Is has a singular personality: the NOW organization.

Well if you accept that premise, then everything you say is true. However, I don't, and I don't think many people outside of NOW do, either. In fact, the first time I heard that claim is when I read your post.

The nation that women are not inferior to men and should have the same rights has been professed by a huge variety of people for the past century and a half, and casting them all under the mold of the radical branch of the feminist movement is an insult. It is analogous, for example, to ignoring all Christian ideals outside of those espoused by the KKK and recognizing them as representatives of Christianity. Hey -- they think so! But no one gave them the authority to define Christianity, just as no one gave NOW the right to define feminism.
 
Certainly the idea of women having rights started long before NOW. Your post provides a good comparison between the "truth" and what NOW says, by their actions and words, is "the truth". The world according to NOW, if you will.

According to NOW and the mass media, we are left with NOW as the "singular voice" of feminism. Period. They have completely co-opted the feminist pulpit.

You only have to read a major newspaper of watch "Today" whenever there is an issue of "women's rights". NOW is the sole organization that is allowed to speak on this topic. Think about it: how many times over the past decade did you hear or see Patricia Ireland? Now ask yourself, "who is the leader of Concerned Women for America?" Even I can't tell you who it is, as I last heard her interviewed on a talk show three years ago.

As I said before, if you disagree with NOW on a point about feminism, they say you are not really a feminist. NOW isn't the first group to do this. If you believe the Bible, and its doctrine, then you see that there are standards for making one a Christian, by definition. If you are espousing the views of David Koresh, for example, you aren't a Christian. This would be "Christianity according to the Bible, or Biblical Christianity.

For the majority that identify themselves as feminists, there is a very real doctrine that they follow, and the media sees this doctrine as the one source on feminism.

While a political party may have "planks" for their "platform", any old party member with enough visibility and the opportunity can speak and be heard, and still be acknowleged as a party member. This doesn't happen with NOW, and it doesn't hapen that any old "feminist" is interviewed on TV.

The basic stuctures of NOW and a party are really very different.

The core principles are seen as immutable at NOW. That's why you see those signs at rallys. They aren't just there, they are APPROVED to be there. They are officially sanctioned.

During the Lewinsky mess, and going back to Paula Jones and the other Clinton women, they really had some problems at NOW. None of the women, except for Hillary, were women that NOW could hold up as their ideal of strong, independent women. And when women charge that they have been abused or molested, they are always right, accoding to NOW. When Paula Jones and the other stories surfaced, NOW was strangely silent. They set aside ALL of their core principles to keep Clinton in the White House, because they also vote as a democrat block. Patricia Ireland was eventually interviewed, and said that she "didn't believe" the charges were true. From there, it has been straight downhill for NOW.


To tie this together, Pat Robertson's statement about feminism is what NOW, the one voice of feminism in America, is all about. For NOW, his statement was about who they really are.

Feminism encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians.

Not everyone agrees that this is the face of feminism, but you won't see any other faces in the media who don't come from this viewpoint of independence (don't need a man), wicca (which is witchcraft), abortion on demand (kill their children), socialism (destroy capitalism), and become lesbians (see: "don't need a man").

A real women's organization, like CWA, you won't see.
 
Let's not forget how we drove off American manufacturing to the third world by means of mimium wage laws and the EPA.

?????? ooookay.

American manufacturing is driven off by its own greed and lack of responsibility to the very communities that built them. Yes, there IS a mutual benefit between industry and labor. "Those pesky and annoying minimum wage and environmental laws..... let's just move to some third world country and exploit and poison their people. If we encounter any resistance, perhaps we can reach in our back pocket and our appointed president can send "advisors" to train and equip some...uhm...let's call 'em "FREEDOM FIGHTERS"!(that'll get the support from the masses of glassy eyed pseudo-patriots' ).. to advance our profit agenda by force. It didn't quite work like we wanted to in Nicaragua, but we can try again."

The better solution would have been to trust the free market, and use common sense when writing laws that affect our jobs. Of course, when you are a university professor or a politician, your job won't leave when manufacturing is driven off to Maylaysia.

Let the market dictate public policy, yeah , let's put the chickens in charge of the chicken feed.

Your attempt to turn the things 180 degrees from common sense failed miserably. The export of jobs is caused by companies that want carte blanche to operate without regard to people and environment, not due to common sense laws regarding wage and environmental protection.
 
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??? American manufacturing is driven off by its own greed and lack of responsibility to the very communities that built them.

Actually, the shareholders, and that includes every little old lady with an income mutual fund, demanded that the American businesses remain profitable. This profitability is the source of a company's ability to hire poeple and to issue dividends to investors.

"Greed" is a term aplied by socialists to ANY profit making institution. It is those profit making institutions that have made America one of earth's greatest nations. If we lose that, America is lost.

"Those pesky and annoying minimum wage and environmental laws..... let's just move to some third world country

I see this long sentence starts with quotation marks, but it is not attributed to anyone. Is this your way of putting words in the mouth of some imaginary capitalist? That's my guess, at least.



Let the market dictate public policy, yeah , let's put the chickens in charge of the chicken feed.

I see you pasted a quote, yet failed to read or at least understand what was quoted. America is a place where the people, or "the chickens" if you prefer, are in charge of everything. Liberals don't like the idea of the people being in charge of anything. They see themselves as the only reasonable, compassionate, sufficiently intelligent life on the planet. They are their own aristocracy. Let's review.



The better solution would have been to trust the free market, and use common sense when writing laws that affect our jobs. Of course, when you are a university professor or a politician, your job won't leave when manufacturing is driven off to Maylaysia.

The free market is the bedrock of American business, so it must have worked pretty well for a long time. There have always been scoundrels among us, and we need to have a legal framwork to keep them in check, to be sure. That's why we need the second half of the first sentence, "and use common sense when writing laws that affect our jobs."

This is a clear case of the NIMBY effect. You see it when someone wants to open or expand a landfill, or start a quarry business on a piece of land they have purchased. "Not in MY back yard, you don't!!" "Put it somewhere else" is the cry. We have managed to put our businesses "somewhere else".

In this case, we made it untenable through various welfare programs, wage dictates, and environmental restrictions for businesses to remain profitable here, but we still want to wear those sneakers and jeans. Now, it's all in someone else's backyard, and the various interest groups are happy. We are still bleeding factories to countries that are more "user friendly" every day.

Apparently, our environmentalists are not nearly as concerned about what happens in someone else's backyard as they were about their own. And they still put on those sneakers and jeans.

If this trend continues unchecked, we will soon have so few jobs that we will become another also-ran, socialist country with 79% percent income tax, a six week wait to see a doctor, two months guaranteed vacations, and a populace with no spirit or drive.

That's not America. I think we need to make some positive change that makes America more competitive. Not socialism, not communism.

We need to save American capitalism.
 
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Just thought I'd chime in on this one. Having grown up in an Eastern Bloc country. I always am amazed by the Romance of Communism that some people conceive. I don't know if these so called Neo-Communists/Socialists have the notion that it would really be better that way but...Let me tell you you would not want you children growing up in a Communist state. I can state examples of what it was like there.
For example going to the grocery and not finding anything on the shelves but Vodka, eggs, and cheese. Or having to be put on a gov't waitlist for a phone connection, apartment building, or just to even buy a car. BTW my grandparents were finally granted such amenities in 1991-92. Even though this was 2 years past when Communism officially fell. I could go on and on about it, Luckily my Dad was brave enough to get out before Martial Law was declared, and we eventually joined him here.
And as much as I love my native country, I will be forever indebted to my Dad for bringing me here. A country I truly believe is the greatest, and I think I really know what freedom is. Because after all, I don't think you know what freedom is until it has been taken away from you. Now I am neither a Bush Man nor a Dean Man. Just a man.

PS. Somebody said something about Eastern European women, yeah its the truth, all of you guys need to check that part of the world out. Try starting in Budapest, and work your way North. :-)
 
Great story.

Some folks don't know that the lead singer of Stepenwolf, the sixties rock group, escaped from East Berlin with his mother as a child.

There is no romance about communism, unless it is in the mind of an American liberal.
 
The export of jobs is caused by companies that want carte blanche to operate without regard to people and environment, not due to common sense laws regarding wage and environmental protection.
In a nutshell ... dat's it. There is a difference between GREED and the motivation to prosper. One acts for no other reason than personal enrichment, at the expense of integrity and honesty (polititions :D), the other acts for personal gain but with the rights of others and his basic responsibility to his fellow man in mind, as well. Being a capitalist doesn't have to mean being a greedy, dishonest, pr!ck.

I want to see what happens when the board members and CEOs of the GREEDY companies (not all companies are) realize that no one here in the US can afford their shoes, clothes, electronics, etc. anymore because we all work in the service industry for minimum wage. I want to see the reaction of the rabid right-wing pilots (not all R-W pilots are such) when congress and the admnistration begins allowing foreign passenger carriers to fly domestic routes and Mesa is the only US airline that can stay in business. I'd like to see TBs reaction when he's forced to live on this much-maligned minimum wage (I am NOT wishing bad things on him, though, for the record. he's a nice guy :) ) because there's nothing else out there. Try feeding a family on it.

It will be sad ... but it will be interesting.

Minh

And for what it's worth ... I am anti-abortion, but I am pro- women's rights. A woman's rights should end where the life of her child begins. That anyone can not see that a six-month-old unborn child is a HUMAN LIFE is beyond me ... I will never understand that one.
 
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I don't know much about their goals, but I had a lot of fun killing communists in the mid 80's. They tend to think their passion for their ideology makes them bullet-proof.

It does not...
 
I have lived on minimum wage. In fact, SAG and AFTRA set minimum wages for actors, so I will be living on "minumum wage" very soon.

I think it is a misperception about "greed" in the minds of corporations. Certainly you can have a "greedy" CEO, but he is there at the whim of the shareholders, the coupon clipping grannies, the 51% share millionaires, and the small investors with a block of 100 shares. Every share gets a vote.

A few decades ago, we decided it didn't matter where we made things. Now, we are starting to pay a price for that idea.
 
Originally posted by SennaP1
I always am amazed by the Romance of Communism that some people conceive.
Outside of the American Communist Party, who the hell finds Communism romantic? It's proven time and again to be one of the most (if not the most) rotten socio-political systems out there.

I think you'll find that communism is not as popular an idea in the U.S. as the members of this forum would have you believe. There are a lot of far-right wingers who think that anyone who suggests that the federal government should have any authority whatsoever (and doesn't have a George W. Bush shrine in their home) is a "communist." It's a word that gets thrown around a lot.

It's kind of like the guy who, when I told him the Theory of Evolution made sense to me, asked "oh, so you're a monkey, huh?" Americans dislike centrism...it's too complicated to understand that conflicting ideals often co-exist.* They much prefer black-and-white identities. You're either a communist or a fascist. A monkey or a spirit. A democrat or a republican. An angel or a devil.

It's not politics, it's semantics.

So take heart. Very, very few Americans truly support communism.

(Rebuttal, Vlad? :D )




*Apparently Strom Thurmond understood this better than we realized.
 
I had a lot of fun killing communists in the mid 80's.
As did I, in the late 80s. I never suspected that I'd become one of them. :D

Minh "Grunt-Grunt" Thong
 
I think that the idea of making a choice between two things is a part of being human, and that comes from God.

Yes or no when voting.

Light separated from the darkness.

0 and 1 in binary language.

Pitch up or down.

In other words, "maybe" is associated with not making a commited choice.

In Matthew 6:24, we find "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other..."

When you stand in the middle of the road, you are in danger of being run over by a bus.

:D
 
I wasn't going to get into this, but since snakum commented on it...
bart said:
...I had a lot of fun killing communists in the mid 80's.
With all due respect, duty is duty. You're not supposed to enjoy it.
 

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