Common Seniority List (for ALL carriers)

[shon7]

I've heard arguments for ONE seniority list for ALL carriers. Is this at all viable or is there too much infighting within the pilot groups for this to occur.

If all pilots were under one list and one union would that give the union more negotiating power or would it just give management to screw pilots as a whole rather than separately!!

 

[jhill]

Did you hear this from a Eastern pilot?

 

[Draginass]

The corporation CEOs and their goverment lackeys will never allow that to happen. Practically speaking, it's impossible with the myriad of contracts now in force and under differing contract provisions. You must also understand that pilots in the same union don't give a rat's butt about each other as well. They'll screw a pilot with one seniority number below them, in a heartbeat. Union solidarity is a joke and the CEOs are taking full advantage of it right now. With the current crisis in the airline industry, the CEOs are being very successful at destroying the last vestages of union power left.

This topic has been debated ad naseum before. Not worth any more electrons.

 

[furloughfodder]

AA would just staple you all anyway.

 

[nitrogen]

Hmmmm

Our stapler broke.

All we have left is a scissors.

AA would just staple you all anyway.

 

[FN FAL]

I've heard arguments for ONE seniority list for ALL carriers. Is this at all viable or is there too much infighting within the pilot groups for this to occur.

If all pilots were under one list and one union would that give the union more negotiating power or would it just give management to screw pilots as a whole rather than separately!!

As long as the "grandfathering" of the seniority on the list is governed by documented 135 and 121 PIC time, I'm all for it.

IE; 10,000 hour documented PIC pilots would be more senior to 9,000 hour documented PIC pilots.

Seniority for those possessing only documented SIC time, would be based on the date of your first checkride.

Once the "grandfathering" process was done, those not included in the list (people without documented 135 or 121 PIC or SIC) would enjoy seniority based on the date on their commercial pilot's license.

 

[flx757]

And that's the reason it will never (at least in my lifetime) come to pass. Everyone has their own "idea" of the best way to implement this plan.

No way, no how. Talking about it is simply a waste of time (other than just for fun and a way to pass the time). It just isn't going to happen.

 

[Clyde]

I've heard arguments for ONE seniority list for ALL carriers. Is this at all viable or is there too much infighting within the pilot groups for this to occur.

If all pilots were under one list and one union would that give the union more negotiating power or would it just give management to screw pilots as a whole rather than separately!!

This topic seems to come up quite a bit. Actually, it comes up most often when the economy hiccups and once secure carriers start shedding some of that security.

Here's my two cents on the topic. No, absoulutely not. I made a decision to come to my current airline. It is secure and well managed. I have a seniority number that was issued to me based on my date of hire with said airline.

Now, if other carriers are struggling (who were once strong), why should someone from one of them be allowed to be senior to me here? Other people made the decision to go to XYZ or ABC airlines for their own personal reasons, just like I chose to come here for mine. I made a good choice. Some didn't. Hindsight is 20/20 and we all have to live with the consequences of our choices. I don't want to see people out of work, but at the same time I have to look out for myself, because nobody else is.

By the way, I think that would give pilots less, not more negotiating power. Too many people, too many interests. Bigger is not always better.

 

[SWA GUY]

I kinda like the seniority number I have....ummmmmmm no thanks.

 

[Ty Webb]

Actually, a better idea would simply be a single pay scale for all pilots flying each piece of equipment. That way, when the carriers do battle, they can leave pilot pay out of the equation. . . . because it is the same for every carrier. I'd say Delta pay would be A-OK with the vast majority of pilots.


How do you get it passed?

Easy . . . . . . get the individual unions together on the issue, and have them contribute lobbying funds. As a wise lawyer once said, 'How much "justice" can you afford?'.

 

[Jack Schitt]

Easy . . . . . . get the individual unions together on the issue

That's funny. ALPA doesn't even know whether to scratch their watch or wind their butt when it comes to their own major and regional groups, but you want them to get together with other unions and come up with a plan. Comical.

 

[AlbieF15]

Not going to happen, but if you want a devil's advocate position here is one:

So, lets see....I forfeit 7, 10, 14, or 20 years to fly for the military, endure combat and family separations, deaths of squadron mates, etc etc so that I can retire and be junior to a 22 year PFT product?

Not fair...so you give me a line number (notional for now) when I get my wings at UPT. Now I show up at FDX with ZERO experience and suddenly I'm senior to a guy who's 35 and has flown at the company 8 years?

There are some benefits to being in a union, and I'm a proud ALPA member. However, at some point the socialism line and the free man capitalist ideals clash, and in this case I'm afraid I don't think many of us former military types would be big fans of a "guild". To get our support for the idea, the rules would have to be so slanted towards our benefit the guys from the commercial side would never support it.

Its a tough, cruel business. Better have a backup plan...

 

[Empennage]

Pilot Self Preservation

I think just by the posts you can see why there is so much oposition to a merged seniority list...self preservation! How many posts have you seen about pilots taking other pilots out at the knees.

I agree, a baseline payrate for all pilots may be the way to go. How do you figure the rate? Per Seat? Per Duty Hour?

It still does not solve the merger problem and I think it is safe to say, more consolodation is on its way.

 

[turn&pull]

I think pay should be based on seniority alone as opposed to how many seats on the aircraft. Senior pilots should be able to bid any aircraft they want based on the lifestyle they would like to have and not be penalized by lower pay.

 

[Ty Webb]

Senior pilots should be able to bid any aircraft they want based on the lifestyle they would like to have and not be penalized by lower pay.

Hey, I think we ought to have white-gloved lackeys carrying our luggage, and limos pick us up at home to start our trip, but it ain;t gonna happen.

We're talking about running a business, not a charity, and if a 747 skipper wants to fly a B1900, do you think he should be paid 747 wages? What are yolu gonna do to offset that? Pay a 747 FO B1900 wages, so he's not penalized for flying a bigger airplane?

Sheesh!

 

[Clyde]

No way to one seniority list. My pilot union is in-house, knows our interests best, and we look after ourselves. And as far as one pay-scale, that would not work either. What happens when the fiscal health at some carriers starts to go south? Does that mean if one falls, everybody does?

As I stated in an earlier post, I, as well as several of friends and colleagues, made decisions based on the information we had at the time. Some of the decisions turned out to be not as good as they seemed. In my case, hindsight being 20/20, my decision was a very good one. So, should someone who made the wrong choice be allowed to step over me in seniority? Absolutely not! We all make choices and we all need to realize that we live with the consequences of those decisions, both good and bad.

It's not until a couple of big carriers start filing Chapter 11 and people get fuloughed or "stuck" that this topic comes up. The only thing that belongs on a seniority list is a staple.

 

[Clyde]

Not going to happen, but if you want a devil's advocate position here is one:

So, lets see....I forfeit 7, 10, 14, or 20 years to fly for the military, endure combat and family separations, deaths of squadron mates, etc etc so that I can retire and be junior to a 22 year PFT product?

Not fair...so you give me a line number (notional for now) when I get my wings at UPT. Now I show up at FDX with ZERO experience and suddenly I'm senior to a guy who's 35 and has flown at the company 8 years?

There are some benefits to being in a union, and I'm a proud ALPA member. However, at some point the socialism line and the free man capitalist ideals clash, and in this case I'm afraid I don't think many of us former military types would be big fans of a "guild". To get our support for the idea, the rules would have to be so slanted towards our benefit the guys from the commercial side would never support it.

Its a tough, cruel business. Better have a backup plan...

Excellent post. Very well said.

 

[100LL... Again!]

It's high time we quit pretending that there was any sort of 'brotherhood' and just admit that it is about to be every man for himself. Personally, I enjoy chaos, so I'm kinda looking forward to it.

 

[capt. megadeth]

" So, should someone who made the wrong choice be allowed to step over me in seniority? Absolutely not! We all make choices and we all need to realize that we live with the consequences of those decisions, both good and bad."

I agree. However, I do think experience should count for something besides getting a job. I just don't think it's right if you are a 20 year or whatever pilot, get furloughed or elect to go to another company etc. and you have to start all over with pay making di$k diddly. I don't know what the answer is but I just don't think that is right.

 

[FN FAL]

" So, should someone who made the wrong choice be allowed to step over me in seniority? Absolutely not! We all make choices and we all need to realize that we live with the consequences of those decisions, both good and bad."

I agree. However, I do think experience should count for something besides getting a job. I just don't think it's right if you are a 20 year or whatever pilot, get furloughed or elect to go to another company etc. and you have to start all over with pay making di$k diddly. I don't know what the answer is but I just don't think that is right.

You know what, even my wife has a hard time explaining that one to her coworkers. While I understand why certain equipment and certain trips net pilots more money...I have never understood why guys have to take so much of a cut to make a move or survive a layoff or airline forclosure. No disrespect to the fo's that are waiting out their turn to get better money, but why does this career have to be fraught with so many ups and downs.

I had a mesaba classmate that due to his military time got on with FedEx...one day he's showing the 727 cockpit to me and at the same time he's telling me that first year SO is way below what I made starting at the feeders. What the ell is up with that?