Commercial Checkride

Cessna172heavy

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I'm preparing to take my commercial checkride in a few weeks. I just recently spoke to my examiner and he asked me "Why don't you take both checkrides (single and multi) on the same day?" I didn't think that was such a bad idea, seeing as how my multi training could be included in my 250 hrs for the single engine time (part 61). I don't have a multi private, instead I have private and instrument SEL. Has anyone done it like this and if so, how does the checkride plan out? My multi can also serve as my complex aircraft (although I got checked out in an Arrow before I realized I could do my checkride like this). Any advice? This is my first post. Thanks!
 

NoPax

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It has been done before

Do the checkride in the Multi (10-15 hrs of training) then the add-on in the single.

The main use of a Commercial ASEL, initially is for instruction, so I'm guessing you are going that route.

The advantage of doing the multi training now is that you'll kill three birds with one stone - total time (not single engine time as you stated) of 250 hrs, while gaining multi experience, and ultimately saving on cost.

Single first with Multi add-on won't give you the 'acting as PIC' loggable time in the twin, something you may want to consider if you want your MEI - 15 hours Multi PIC, with 5 hours make and model - I think (I'll stand corrected if I got this wrong). In other words your training will be done in the Single with training as required in the Multi.

Multi first then Single add-on will mean that the bulk of the part 61 training (20 hours), including the cross-country (acting as PIC) training requirements will have to be met in the twin.

You could use a Cessna 152 for the Commercial Single add-on if you wanted as you are demonstrating the maneuvers in a complex twin.

The latter would be my choice.

Have fun, and welcome to Flight Info.
 
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Tarzan

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I've sent a few guys for checkrides like that. It would save them about $1000 bucks. Instead of the time in the SE complex, we trained in the multi. It was a long ride for these guys but never had a guy bust it. One thing they would do is do all the oral, commercial and multi in one sitting and then do the flying the next day.

What was stated above is almost correct but he's thinking about 141. The five hours in the model is required to give instruction that that model. You need 15 PIC for Part 141 purposes. All you need for your MEI checkride is five hours PIC if you do it Part 61. Your not going to get any multi PIC until you take you checkride in the twin regardless of what order you do it in.
 
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Cessna172heavy

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Thanks for the adivice you guys. I was planning on it being a long day when it comes time to get this done! I've gotten the bulk of my commercial TT under part 61 in the single engine because my flight school doesn't have current part 141 commercial certification. My private and instrument were both done 141 though, and I could also do my multi commercial 141 if I choose, but I dunno how much of an advantage if would be, if any. I'd have to follow the King multi course syllabus, and that might actually mean flying more than I'd need to.

Now that I recall, I think my examiner mentioned doing the multi checkride first and then adding on the single, as was stated in a reply to my first post. However, this leads me to another question...

What does the multi commercial "ride" portion of the test consist of? Would i be doing all of the maneuvers (ie, chandelles, lazy eights, etc.) or would I only do that in one of the two aircraft. I've learned all the maneuvers and gotten them down in a Skyhawk. I guess I was under the impression that during the multi portion, I'd only have to show that I know how to fly a twin, and perform VMC, one engine shutdown ops, and shooting a couple of approaches. If anyone could shed some light on this subject, it would be most appreciated. Thanks!
 

WARMBEER

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The Multi "ride" will consist of single engine ops (approaches, landings Vmc demos.) The only maneuvers you will probably do are steep turns and stalls to comm. standards. Oh and probably short landings as well. Otherwise the Chandelles, lazy 8's, etc. will be done in the single. I've never heard of anyone doing chandelles and stuff on a multi ride. Could be wrong though. GL
 

pilotmiketx

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I don't understand how doing all of your commercial training in a twin will save money? If I remember correctly, when I did mine, I had all of the time requirements met from flying the old C-140, 150 and 172. I did about 3 hours of training in an Arrow and took the checkride and then about 5 hours of training in a Travel Air and took another checkride. With all the money I saved, I bought some block time in an Apache and that got me over the multi "hump".
 

Tarzan

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Instead of using a single engine complex for the check ride, you use the twin and get your twin rating at the same time. And it saves you about $300 on examiner fee if your using a DE.
 

pilotmiketx

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But then you'd have to practice the commercial maneuvers in the multi at at least double the cost of the single. Seems like best case scenario it'd be a wash.
 

BLing

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I dont know about doing it the same day...Maybe spread it out over 2 days. Its a good idea to finish up you hours in the twin. I attempted that and failed because some idiot had to do a gear up landing in the Baron before I was done. But, go for it!
 

Tarzan

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pilotmiketx said:
But then you'd have to practice the commercial maneuvers in the multi at at least double the cost of the single. Seems like best case scenario it'd be a wash.
I guess you didn't instruct very long or else it was a while ago. Unfortunately it was a short time ago for me and I remeber all to well. (Still have nightmares and wake hollering, "RIGHT RUDDER! RIGHT RUDDER!") The maneuvers required for a multi add-on for Commercial are: Short Field T/O and landing, Power on/off Stalls. Slow flight, Steep turns, Vmc demo, Engine failures, Engine shutdown and restart, Emergency Descent and Emergency gear extention. No chandelles, lazy 8's or 8's on pylons.

You'll have to do these regardless of whether or not your doing it the same day or two months later. By doing this, instead of spending money a single engine for your short field and soft field ops along with your emergency gear extenstion, your working on you Commercial Multi Add-On.

As I said earlier, it's sometimes a bit much to do all in one day but I've sent two guys that did it all in one day. Two others that split it up into two days. They saved $1000 dollars on renting the single engine complex plane because they would have spent the money anyway on the twin later on and they saved $300 for the DE fee. Some folks may call $1300 a wash but I don't. Only problem is my school didn't have it in our TCO for 141.
 
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Mud Eagle

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What's required if you have the Commercial Multi, but want to add on the Commercial Single?
 

nosehair

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Get the Commercial PTS. You will see that it has 2 sections: 1 for single & 1 for multi. You don't have to do chandelles, lazy 8's, or 8's on pylons or steep spirals or 180 power off landings in the multi, but you do in the single, and that is what you do to add the single.
 

NoPax

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TiredOfTeaching said:
The five hours in the model is required to give instruction in that model. You need 15 PIC for Part 141 purposes. All you need for your MEI checkride is five hours PIC if you do it Part 61.
Almost correct. It's been a while, but I still know what I'm talking about!!!

15 hours Multi PIC - ref: 61.183 (j)

(j) Log at least 15 hours as pilot in command in the category and
class of aircraft that is appropriate to the flight instructor rating
sought;

5 hours Make and Model 61.195 (f)

(f) Training received in a multiengine airplane, a helicopter, or a
powered-lift. A flight instructor may not give training required for the
issuance of a certificate or rating in a multiengine airplane, a
helicopter, or a powered-lift unless that flight instructor has at least
5 flight hours of pilot-in-command time in the specific make and model
of multiengine airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift, as appropriate.


For the student to save money depends on when the student starts training towards the Commercial Certificate.

If they have over 250 hours - no saving

If they have maybe 125 hours (professional pilot student) they can save a lot, and also train towards CFI/II/MEI. That way when 250 hours rolls around, they are eligable to take checkrides for any of the above certificates, rather than building hours in a single to meet the 250 hour et al requirements, then train in the multi, then CFI/II/MEI .

In this case the MEI may have around 300 hours upon completion

Back when I was Chief Instructor, I had a plan where everything would be done (under ideal conditions) with about 260TT, commercial, single, multi, instrument. High performance, high altitude, complex aircraft, spin training (15 hours aerobatic) tailwheel, CFI CFII & MEI. I think with a little planning and knowledge of the regs you can really accomplish a lot in 250-60 hours for your students.
 

awacs941

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So lets say you do the Commercial Multi First and skip out on the complex single. So now you have a commercial single and a commercial multi... But for the CFI ride don't you have to do stuff in a complex single? If that is true.. it would actually be harder to get it because you wouldn't have more experience in the complex single.. ?
 

minitour

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awacs941 said:
So lets say you do the Commercial Multi First and skip out on the complex single. So now you have a commercial single and a commercial multi... But for the CFI ride don't you have to do stuff in a complex single? If that is true.. it would actually be harder to get it because you wouldn't have more experience in the complex single.. ?
not if you do the MEI first.

-mini
 

SmellsLikeAvGas

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These are all really good points.. and I am currently working on my commercial as well (still at the early point of building time and learning maneuvers... I have about 215 right now, part 61.) I do have one question, though. At least according to my 2004 FAR/AIM, if you are going for the commercial multi engine (without already having the SEL commercial) you need 10 hrs in a multi, but you also need to do the 2 hr day/2 hr night VFR XC in the multi, and the long solo XC (or performing duties of PIC with an authorized instructor) also in the multi (300nm.) If 7-8 hours of your multi time was being spent on XCs, where you don't get much practice with landings and engine outs, wouldn't you need more training just to get comfortable with all that stuff, and might having to do all those XCs in the multi get more expensive than just doing those in a 152/172? Just wondering how it ends up working in the real world, with getting in the usual multi engine training, but also having to do long XCs in the multi as well.... ? I am not (at least at this moment) going for my CFI, so I might not even need the SEL comm, so I'm trying to see what works out best time and money-wise, but was just worried about the XCs in a multi eating away a lot of my moolah. Any thoughts, or am I totally misreading the FARs? Thanks.
 

gkrangers

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SmellsLikeAvGas said:
These are all really good points.. and I am currently working on my commercial as well (still at the early point of building time and learning maneuvers... I have about 215 right now, part 61.) I do have one question, though. At least according to my 2004 FAR/AIM, if you are going for the commercial multi engine (without already having the SEL commercial) you need 10 hrs in a multi, but you also need to do the 2 hr day/2 hr night VFR XC in the multi, and the long solo XC (or performing duties of PIC with an authorized instructor) also in the multi (300nm.) If 7-8 hours of your multi time was being spent on XCs, where you don't get much practice with landings and engine outs, wouldn't you need more training just to get comfortable with all that stuff, and might having to do all those XCs in the multi get more expensive than just doing those in a 152/172? Just wondering how it ends up working in the real world, with getting in the usual multi engine training, but also having to do long XCs in the multi as well.... ? I am not (at least at this moment) going for my CFI, so I might not even need the SEL comm, so I'm trying to see what works out best time and money-wise, but was just worried about the XCs in a multi eating away a lot of my moolah. Any thoughts, or am I totally misreading the FARs? Thanks.
(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in Sec. 61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least--
(i) 10 hours of instrument training of which at least 5 hours must be in a multiengine airplane;
(ii) 10 hours of training in a multiengine airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and controllable pitch propellers, or is turbine-powered, or for an applicant seeking a multiengine seaplane rating, 10 hours of training in a multiengine seaplane that has flaps and a controllable pitch propeller;
(iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a multiengine airplane in day VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;
(iv) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a multiengine airplane in night VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(v) 3 hours in a multiengine airplane in preparation for the practical test within the 60-day period preceding the date of the test.
(4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a multiengine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a multiengine airplane with an authorized instructor (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement in paragraph (b)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed in Sec. 61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least--
(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and
(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight with a traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.


20 hours in the multi..completing all of the above tasks...is the way I interpret it...but im not positive.
 
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