Combining the seniority lists

[FlyDeltasJets]

SDD,

Even if the PID was granted, even if the rjdc wins, even if every Delta pilot was for onelist, I don't believe it will ever occur. If you disagree, please give me a realistic strategy to convince mgt to combine the lists, keeping in mind the following points:

1. There is nothing in either of our contracts which comples mgt to combine the lists. We have no legal authority.

2. There is a huge cost advantage in keeping the lists seperate. Management has publically stated that they will never merge the lists. There are way too many cost issues involved, including f/a's, rampers, csa's, retirement funding, etc.

3. Mgt has already accepted an 89 day strike to maintain the current cost structure.

4. The current trend is to spin off regionals rather than combining the lists. We have no way to prevent management from doing this, even if we put massive pressure on them to combine the lists.

5. We (DALPA) could not possibly get released to strike for at least 4 or 5 years.

6. Our contracts are staggered, so we would not be released at the same time.

7. The idea is impossible without the support of the Delta pilots.

8. The rjdc has virtually eliminated any chance of that support being gained.

9. The majority of concessions would have to come from the mainline contract.

10. See number 8.

11. The support that the rjdc hasn't been able to kill is further strained by the Delta pilot's fear of losing seniority.

12. No staple has been asked for, lending credence to the Delta pilot's fear of losing seniority.


There are many other factors working against onelist, but I will stop here!

It is easy to say that onelist should occur. It is easy to file a lawsuit. It is harder to demonstrat that it "could" occur, and harder still to offer a realistic strategy that would be successful.

You have eloquently stated over and over again the need for onelist. Let's assume that we agree. Now please speculate how we could achieve it. Please use specifics.

I don't think that we can achieve it. I would like for you to change my mind.

Anyonce can join in. Surplus, your ideas are always valuable.

No soundbites. I've heard them all. I need realistic proposals.

Thanks.

 

[ifly4food]

Moderator's note...

FDJ asked me to make this a new topic because he felt it warranted more discussion. I agree.
It was originally under the "Freedom Airlines/Scope" thread.
If4f

 

[rjcap]

Flydeltajets,

I agree with you. There is no real reason to think that the lists would ever be combined - stapled of whatever. It would put far too much power in the hands of the pilots.

Having said that its time we accept that we are competitors who are free to compete against each other in a free market.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Rj,

We are competing. We tried to get scope. We succeeded. You tried to get meaningful scope. You failed.

The free market is never entirely free. From a pilot's point of view, I don't think you would like it too much if it was.

 

[Old Crow]

The Disadvantages of not having a onelist situation is multiple managment groups, the lack of the ability to maximize the use of company assets, and the inability to fly the right aircraft in the right market.

No need to comment further cause Big D will never convince the Delta mainline pilots that it would work to their advantage.

 

[rjcap]

Flydeltajets,

We are competing. We tried to get scope. We succeeded. You tried to get meaningful scope. You failed.

You have lost me there?

Mainline is being furloughed.

We are taking delivery of 50 and 70 seat RJ's and increasing our route structure.

I'm not quite sure where I failed here?


Good luck to you

 

[TWA Dude]

I certainly agree that onelist won't come to pass until it's in management's best interest, but management just may have other tricks up its sleeve. They want the cheapest labor they can find, which means the "small jet" carriers. Scope gets in the way so you can bet they'll try to work around it. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see a revision of the Railway Labor Act. In the long run management always has the upper hand so the best we can do is to counter them with a unified front. Call me a cynic but I can't envision pilots forming a unified front.

I am sympathetic to the RJDC to the extent that there's no doubt that ALPA favors mainline pilot groups over regionals, and even a lawsuit won't change that. Management would love to grow the regionals and shrink the majors and of course many small-jet pilots love that idea. We all want our present airline to be the best for us. Thus there'll always be divisions between the carriers regardless of ALPA.

Sorry for rambling. With every passing year the "facts on the ground" change in this industry and management has the momentum.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Flydeltajets,




You have lost me there?

Mainline is being furloughed.

We are taking delivery of 50 and 70 seat RJ's and increasing our route structure.

I'm not quite sure where I failed here?


Good luck to you

I agree with you rj. You guys are winning right now. All I stated is that you failed to get meaningful scope. We did get it, though it is being ignored.

My post was in reponse to your request that we should accept that we are competitors. I agree with that assesment, but think it is direct contrast to the actions of the rjdc who is attempting to abrogate our contract.

I guess that I was not too clear. I apologize. I shouldn't have gotten into it. I would love it if this thread continues with my original intent, garnering ideas for onelist.

 

[skydiverdriver]

Again, the rjdc lawsuit is misrepresented, and misunderstood. It's not just about onelist, it's about treating us the same, as per their own bylaws. That wouldn't be solved with onelist, as there is much more to it.

But, to answer your question, I believe since we kindly asked your MEC to talk about a onelist proposal, and they refused, you should petition your MEC to come to us with a proposal. This seems to make the most sense, because you could draw up a contract, word it any way you want, and submit it to the other involved parties. I dont' think our MEC is able to do this, since they allready did and were turned down.

I totally agree that even if the rjdc gets everything they want, it will NOT, and I repeat, not result in a merger. HOwever, by their bylaws, ALPA is required to do everything in their power to try to get one accomplished. NOw, read that again, they cannot affect a merger, but they are required to try. This is the essense of what the rjdc is suing for. Everyone knows that ALPA cannot make it happen, but their own bylaws require them to TRY. I'm not sure why this keeps getting muddied in the discussion.

If you have a better suggestion, I would be glad to entertain it. HOwever, since it was YOUR side that refused to follow the established procedure, I feel it is your side's obligation to make the first move. Of course, this would put you in control, and isn't that what you want anyway? What do you think?

 

[skydiverdriver]

FDJ, PS,
It's kinda funny that you should ask this, because I have been asking this question all along. I keep hearing people who say we shouldn't have started a lawsuit, and I ask, then what should we do instead? If ALPA wouldn't follow their own bylaws, and Delta's MEC refused to even talk, what then? It seems to me like the only reason anyone is listening to us at all, or even talking about this is because a few brave Comair pilots decided they weren't going to take it any longer. Otherwise, you would not even be talking to us about this.