Comair, watch out!

[surplus1]

One other thing, how can they explain to you Comair pilots about leaving the ground employees in FL while replacing you all... sounds like "the replacements" are coming in for the pilots and FA's. I hope this isn't a trend Comair is starting, but once CHQ moves in and if it works, watchout for your jobs! That would be interesting, Comair as an airline but employs no pilots, they have a bunch of subcontactor pilots, ground employees, and management.. just a thought. I hope this (MCO) is a wake up call. The hiring trend has been known to reverse itself as quickly as it started. I would hate to see that at such a quality airline as Comair!

"They" don't have to explain anything. Comair pilots have a contract with a phantom airline and are completely unprotected against this sort of thing. That is also the case with every other regional airline. Comair doesn't decide anything, doesn't do anything and can't say anything. The Company is Delta Air Lines. Comair is nothing more that a name on a piece of paper and a memory of what once was. Comair pilots have no reason to be upset with Comair, this is the work of Delta.

The bidding wars for the flying have begun and will continue. The major pilot groups will suffer the most, the regional flying will just get cheaper and cheaper (in terms of pilot compensation packages) and before too long the big regionals will be biddng against the majors for the narrow-body flying.

There will always be someone out there with lots of pilots willing to fly for less. The unions gave management the opportunity to do this on a silver platter. Expect them to take full advantage of it.

 

[Marko Ramius]

It's Possible?

I think Comair WAS the big one. I don't believe it will happen again. Pilots are too afraid to have their airline go away, and management doesn't want that either.

SDD,

Maybe, maybe not. I still tend to think that the "mother of all regional airline strikes," will occur sometime down the line-not in the near future though. Most of the labor issues of the 1980's were unprecedented, and I'm sure none of those employees saw the hammer coming or knew how they would react to it. The confusion over at CO in 1983, is a testament to that. I doubt anybody back then thought that the pilots of United would take such a dramatic stand in 1985. I know Dick Ferris didn't!! As outsourcing continues, the dream of many of moving on to a major dimishes and the resolve to make the current employer a better place to work increases. We all know alot of people who have plans to work at XYZ regional for a few years and go to major. When those people realize that the mainline majors(outside of WN) have shrunken to the point where all of the domestic flying is done by regionals, some will become disenchanted over working conditions and the seeds of a labor movement will begin. At the regional carriers that aren't wholly owned, one more facet will be added to the mix: regional management greed. Some of these carriers, like ACA or Mesa will be in control of so much domestic feed in 10 years or so, they will likely attempt to extort their partners for more money. At least one of them will be like Icarus and get too close to the sun. Also, you have a backdrop where regional carriers are attempting to change the balance of power in ALPA in their favor. While this likely will cause some carriers to defect, it will also bolster the bargaining position of regional pilots down the line, adding to the "brew." Again this is all conjecture and far down the line, but if you shift the focus from the majors over to the regionals, the fires that currently occur at the majors will occur at the regionals. It goes unsaid, but all of this is a big reason many regionals are afraid to hire major airline furloughees. Why risk strengthening those carriers with pilots who have seen all of management's shennagins before at another airline(s)?

 

[BigFlyr]

Call it a simpleton's point of view but but you have to admit that were it not for the advent of so called "regional jet" and their low cost operators none of these issues would exist. I wonder why the majors don't just buy and operate their own RJs with their own mainline pilots... like the way Midway Airlines did (ok they screwed it all up). Anyway,... pay RJ drivers less just as they would, a 737 pilot versus a 767 pilot, but not at the current poverty levels of the regionals. The efficiency of the RJ will make up the difference. What's the big deal?

 

[Boeingman]

There will always be someone out there with lots of pilots willing to fly for less. The unions gave management the opportunity to do this on a silver platter. Expect them to take full advantage of it.

Bingo. Well close anyway. The unions are not the sole problem.
The main problem is there are pilots who will whore themselves out to fly. Period. In this job market, with thousands of guys unemployed and/or underemployed, it is even more prevelant.

We are just seeing the first round by managments industry wide to decimate the earning potential and careers of mainline carrier pilots.

I predict the next teir of attacks will be on the higher paid "regional" airlines by using cheap labor in RJ's i.e. kids with stars in their eyes about flying jets with alter ego companies.

In retrospect, I think that has even started.

 

[surplus1]

I wonder why the majors don't just buy and operate their own RJs with their own mainline pilots... like the way Midway Airlines did (ok they screwed it all up).

I don't mean to pick on you, but could you please tell me how you managed to classify Midway Airlines as a "major" airline in your mind?

If anything defines Midway (at its best) it was definitely a "regional" and not even a successful or a large one.

Nothing against Midway people, but a major? Somebody has a vivid imagination.

 

[Clownpilot]

LOL

The bidding wars for the flying have begun and will continue. The major pilot groups will suffer the most, the regional flying will just get cheaper and cheaper (in terms of pilot compensation packages) and before too long the big regionals will be biddng against the majors for the narrow-body flying.>>>




Excellent.
Another update from the reigning king of fantasy land.
Of course his court jester skydiver is right at his heels 'yessing' away like crazy at everything he says.

 

[skydiverdriver]

Hey Boeingman,
So, who do you classify as a "whore?" Everyone who doesn't fly a Boeing? Wouldn't that be all non-military pilots before they get that big break?

Now seriously, what do you propose? That we all refuse to work for regionals? How will we work our way up? And, even if we could all refuse (which could never happen) all the airlines will have to do is train their own, even foriegners who don't know what they are getting into. Management will allways find a way. I agree with Surplus that it's the unions that allowed this situation to occur. They could have stopped it, and they still have a chance, but they seem unwilling to try.

But, if you have a better suggestion, I'm open to it. Thanks for reading.

 

[Clownpilot]

Excellent

Don't worry about the bullpen thing. No Comair pilot will EVER fly any ASA struck work, if it ever comes to that. If you want to stop this sort of thing from happening, join the rjdc and fight along with us.

Yep.
Join the RJDC and guarantee that your fellow pilots are stuck in low paying regional jobs for the rest of their natural lives.

I hope most guys on this board realize the real threat you people present and that you are their enemy. You skydiver, even though you aren't a pilot, feel compelled to post on these boards and there are actual pilots that support the RJDC; incredibly. Since they're pilots it is sometimes difficult to recognize the enemy in our midst. Management takes a clear position against labor and we know where the dangers are. These pilots appear to be peers.

Although your group has almost no support in the pilot ranks at any level, new pilots may be hoodwinked by the rhetoric. I can't tell you how sad it makes me to see pilots attempting to destroy the profession. The ONLY people that the RJDC benefits is those who KNOW they will never go anywhere higher than a regional job. They want to keep everybody down there with them. It's really pretty sick.

 

[Timebuilder]

I can see only one reason that regional pilots would be stuck in low paying jobs: the refusal of their union to treat them like union members, and bargain on their behalf the same way they bargain for their dwindling mainline ranks.

 

[Boeingman]

Hey Boeingman,
So, who do you classify as a "whore?" Everyone who doesn't fly a Boeing? Wouldn't that be all non-military pilots before they get that big break?

Now seriously, what do you propose? That we all refuse to work for regionals? How will we work our way up? And, even if we could all refuse (which could never happen) all the airlines will have to do is train their own, even foriegners who don't know what they are getting into. Management will allways find a way. I agree with Surplus that it's the unions that allowed this situation to occur. They could have stopped it, and they still have a chance, but they seem unwilling to try.

But, if you have a better suggestion, I'm open to it. Thanks for reading.

I'm not trying to suggest I have the answer. It is a fact of the industry that many of these companies will ALWAYS have pilots beating down the door. The unions are only a small part of the problematic equation.

You said it yourself above. "How will we work our way up". Managment will play on that and keep squeezing every chance they get. The attacks on mainline flying will proliferate through the established regional ranks as more of these alter ego carriers crop up. And they will have thousands of applications.

Until something fixes the pilot supply and demand problem, it will always haunt us. If it were possible to instill on kids coming out of these flight school factories that working for slave wages to build time, ultimatly kills their prospects for future bucks. I know, how do you get the experience.

Yes, I was spoiled. I hardly have any prop time, flew fighters and never worried about jet time (let alone flight time) when I was interviewing. But, I am positive I would never of accepted some of the lousy jobs after seperating from the AF that are out there today just to fly. However I think that most civilian guys will (or must) do that to get the experience.

PLEASE, NO ONE START A FLAME ABOUT CIV vs. MILITARY, not my intent.

It carries furtherr that people need to feed their families and will also fly larger equipment at C scale wages to put food on the table. So I'm not just talking about younger regional pilots.

The situation will eventually decimate the contracts ALPA has spent years negotiating. I guarantee the more established smaller airlines pay and growth will eventually get decimated as this low wage, alter ego cancer spread like wildfire.