Comair, watch out!

[daviator]

Just a heads up for our Comair brethren. Last night Delta management held a Furlough Outreach meeting at LAX. One of the questions directed toward the VP of Fleet Planning was why was Comair moving out of Florida and going to Dallas? His answer was I quote "simple economics" its cheaper to use Chautaqua than it was to use Comair. As far as Comair going to Dallas its strickly a defensive strategy to prevent further labor disruptions. There is no plan to grow Comair in Dallas but to be used as (his term) "bullpen" relievers if an ASA flight cancels or some other disruption occurs in addition to their normal routes. I'm not sure what he meant and he didn't elaborate but I think Delta's strategy is to overlap their commuter operations to prevent service interruptions like what happend during the Comair strike. Finally, Delta Mgmt is actively seeking a replacement aircraft for the 737-200. They are looking at a 90-100 seat plane, to be flown by mainline pilots, from either Airbus or Embraer. I hope you find this info helpful. Fly safe but most important have fun!

 

[54fighting]

Last night Delta management held a Furlough Outreach meeting at LAX.

Come on look at the messenger. What do you expect them to tell a group of furloughed pilots, "you know, with Comair opening up a DFW base, we're gonna expand like crazy with them". It's typical management spin. I just don't buy that they are going to send Comair down there to warm the bullpen, and I hope you don't either.

I hope your're right regarding the 90-100 seat jets and it get's you guys back off the street.

 

[canadflyau]

I hear the whipsaw starting to spin!

Delta
Comair
ASA

and...
Skywest
ACA
and now Chautaqua

It is gonna get messy! Learn from the US Airways /Express/ Contract Carriers situation.. This one could actually be more messy. it already is if you ask me.. they are still laying off pilots at DAL!

Time to get everyone working on carefully worded scope clauses!

 

[FlyComAirJets]

Thanks for the heads up, Daviator. Several days before your LAX meeting, there were meetings here in Cincinnati and in Orlando. Curiously, they seem to contradict what your VP of Fleet Planning said. Imagine that? In a memo dated June 10th, under Comair Growth Plans, President "Regional" Randy states that: "We are planning additional Comair flying from Dallas/Fort Worth." Not to be confused with Fort Woerth which as we all know is somewhere in Washington, DC!

But wait, there's more!

"This redeployment allows us to better support the Delta network as we leverage our industry-leading regional jet program to return the entire network to profitability. Re-establishing the health of the Delta mainline operation is important for all of us because a strong, healthy partner translates into a strong, healthy Comair."

Me thinks these guys speak with forked tongues.

Thanks again for your warm support.

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

For the benefit of the uneducated (namely myself), can someone explain why it is such a great deal that ComAir is going to allegedly expand DFW but pull out of MCO, how that benefits the ComAir folks?
I don't have a horse in this race, but it would seem to me that if ComAir/Delta was that interested in expanding they would do it with their own folks. Granted, there may be an equipment and personnel shortage (if they truly plan to expand at DFW) to grow but sounds like a smoke screen for ComAir/Delta to do a hose job at MCO.
Realize it is Delta's company to run but it will be interesting to see if DFW grows. And if it does grow will it be at the expense of DAL mainline and/or is it to keep ASA and ComAir in line? Apologize for the cynicism. I would rather be a wall flower than throw rocks at bee hives but reading some of the reasons/excuses for pulling out of MCO don't make sense (except the new provider at MCO is cheaper to operate, that is believable).
Perhaps someone in the know can logically explain how this will truly benefit the parties involved. Thanks.

 

[FlyComAirJets]

Comair (mis)management gave two reasons:
1.) "Florida is a lower-yield market and has not recovered from the impact of 9/11. Chautauqua's small 37-seat jets provide a lower-cost option for matching the appropriate aircraft with the challenging market conditions in Florida."
2.)"The introduction of Chautauqua's jets will benefit customers because their cost structure allows more jets and more service."

Now here is the interesting part. It has been announced that the pilot and flight attendant bases are to be closed. What about the maintenance and station personnel?

"Work for maintenance employees is expected to remain at current levels. Comair's Maintenance department will have the ability to exercise the first right of refusal for any contract work that Chautauqua may require."

"Customer Service employees will continue with Comair. They will be handling Chautauqua, Comair, and other DCI carrier in Orlando, Fort Lauderdale, Key West, and Miami."

Management makes the call which aircraft the company flies, if it was just the size of the aircraft involved, then they are the one's at fault for operating the wrong-sized aircraft. But as you can see, the only entity to be outsourced are the pilot and flight attendant positions in Orlando, every one else pretty much stays.

 

[skydiverdriver]

Don't worry about the bullpen thing. No Comair pilot will EVER fly any ASA struck work, if it ever comes to that. If you want to stop this sort of thing from happening, join the rjdc and fight along with us.

 

[canadflyau]

How will you be able to tell if you are flying the others "struck" work? It seems that yall are passing eachother on the same routes lately. Flight 1 from CVG to XYZ is flown by Comair, Flight 2 by ASA, flight 3 by Delta mainline, flight 4, 5 and 6 could be one of the contract carriers. So it would seem to me it is not so black and white, and more like shades of grey as they have you guys overlapping coverage. It also appears like they will be in great position for contract negotiations. If an apparent workstoppage seems emminant, one of the other 5 operators will get the call to add flights.. but I think Delta would be ok with a slowdown over a strike, b/c that is all a strike will feel like to Delta Management with all the different pilot groups they have still flying. (Seems like all for one and one for all should become your battle cry... very soon!)

One other thing, how can they explain to you Comair pilots about leaving the ground employees in FL while replacing you all... sounds like "the replacements" are coming in for the pilots and FA's. I hope this isn't a trend Comair is starting, but once CHQ moves in and if it works, watchout for your jobs! That would be interesting, Comair as an airline but employs no pilots, they have a bunch of subcontactor pilots, ground employees, and management.. just a thought. I hope this (MCO) is a wake up call. The hiring trend has been known to reverse itself as quickly as it started. I would hate to see that at such a quality airline as Comair!

 

[Marko Ramius]

More Drama to Come

Don't worry about the bullpen thing. No Comair pilot will EVER fly any ASA struck work, if it ever comes to that. If you want to stop this sort of thing from happening, join the rjdc and fight along with us.

Oh it will come to that and more, it's just a question of when and what regional airline does it. The Comair strike will likely end up as a precursor of "the big one," at some other regional down the line. Sort of like Continental in '83 lit a fuse that blew up at United in '85.

 

[skydiverdriver]

I think Comair WAS the big one. I don't believe it will happen again. Pilots are too afraid to have their airline go away, and management doesn't want that either.

To answer the question about how we will know its' struck work, well, if ASA goes on strike, they will define it for us. Thanks for asking.

 

[surplus1]

One other thing, how can they explain to you Comair pilots about leaving the ground employees in FL while replacing you all... sounds like "the replacements" are coming in for the pilots and FA's. I hope this isn't a trend Comair is starting, but once CHQ moves in and if it works, watchout for your jobs! That would be interesting, Comair as an airline but employs no pilots, they have a bunch of subcontactor pilots, ground employees, and management.. just a thought. I hope this (MCO) is a wake up call. The hiring trend has been known to reverse itself as quickly as it started. I would hate to see that at such a quality airline as Comair!

"They" don't have to explain anything. Comair pilots have a contract with a phantom airline and are completely unprotected against this sort of thing. That is also the case with every other regional airline. Comair doesn't decide anything, doesn't do anything and can't say anything. The Company is Delta Air Lines. Comair is nothing more that a name on a piece of paper and a memory of what once was. Comair pilots have no reason to be upset with Comair, this is the work of Delta.

The bidding wars for the flying have begun and will continue. The major pilot groups will suffer the most, the regional flying will just get cheaper and cheaper (in terms of pilot compensation packages) and before too long the big regionals will be biddng against the majors for the narrow-body flying.

There will always be someone out there with lots of pilots willing to fly for less. The unions gave management the opportunity to do this on a silver platter. Expect them to take full advantage of it.

 

[Marko Ramius]

It's Possible?

I think Comair WAS the big one. I don't believe it will happen again. Pilots are too afraid to have their airline go away, and management doesn't want that either.

SDD,

Maybe, maybe not. I still tend to think that the "mother of all regional airline strikes," will occur sometime down the line-not in the near future though. Most of the labor issues of the 1980's were unprecedented, and I'm sure none of those employees saw the hammer coming or knew how they would react to it. The confusion over at CO in 1983, is a testament to that. I doubt anybody back then thought that the pilots of United would take such a dramatic stand in 1985. I know Dick Ferris didn't!! As outsourcing continues, the dream of many of moving on to a major dimishes and the resolve to make the current employer a better place to work increases. We all know alot of people who have plans to work at XYZ regional for a few years and go to major. When those people realize that the mainline majors(outside of WN) have shrunken to the point where all of the domestic flying is done by regionals, some will become disenchanted over working conditions and the seeds of a labor movement will begin. At the regional carriers that aren't wholly owned, one more facet will be added to the mix: regional management greed. Some of these carriers, like ACA or Mesa will be in control of so much domestic feed in 10 years or so, they will likely attempt to extort their partners for more money. At least one of them will be like Icarus and get too close to the sun. Also, you have a backdrop where regional carriers are attempting to change the balance of power in ALPA in their favor. While this likely will cause some carriers to defect, it will also bolster the bargaining position of regional pilots down the line, adding to the "brew." Again this is all conjecture and far down the line, but if you shift the focus from the majors over to the regionals, the fires that currently occur at the majors will occur at the regionals. It goes unsaid, but all of this is a big reason many regionals are afraid to hire major airline furloughees. Why risk strengthening those carriers with pilots who have seen all of management's shennagins before at another airline(s)?

 

[BigFlyr]

Call it a simpleton's point of view but but you have to admit that were it not for the advent of so called "regional jet" and their low cost operators none of these issues would exist. I wonder why the majors don't just buy and operate their own RJs with their own mainline pilots... like the way Midway Airlines did (ok they screwed it all up). Anyway,... pay RJ drivers less just as they would, a 737 pilot versus a 767 pilot, but not at the current poverty levels of the regionals. The efficiency of the RJ will make up the difference. What's the big deal?

 

[Boeingman]

There will always be someone out there with lots of pilots willing to fly for less. The unions gave management the opportunity to do this on a silver platter. Expect them to take full advantage of it.

Bingo. Well close anyway. The unions are not the sole problem.
The main problem is there are pilots who will whore themselves out to fly. Period. In this job market, with thousands of guys unemployed and/or underemployed, it is even more prevelant.

We are just seeing the first round by managments industry wide to decimate the earning potential and careers of mainline carrier pilots.

I predict the next teir of attacks will be on the higher paid "regional" airlines by using cheap labor in RJ's i.e. kids with stars in their eyes about flying jets with alter ego companies.

In retrospect, I think that has even started.

 

[surplus1]

I wonder why the majors don't just buy and operate their own RJs with their own mainline pilots... like the way Midway Airlines did (ok they screwed it all up).

I don't mean to pick on you, but could you please tell me how you managed to classify Midway Airlines as a "major" airline in your mind?

If anything defines Midway (at its best) it was definitely a "regional" and not even a successful or a large one.

Nothing against Midway people, but a major? Somebody has a vivid imagination.

 

[Clownpilot]

LOL

The bidding wars for the flying have begun and will continue. The major pilot groups will suffer the most, the regional flying will just get cheaper and cheaper (in terms of pilot compensation packages) and before too long the big regionals will be biddng against the majors for the narrow-body flying.>>>




Excellent.
Another update from the reigning king of fantasy land.
Of course his court jester skydiver is right at his heels 'yessing' away like crazy at everything he says.

 

[skydiverdriver]

Hey Boeingman,
So, who do you classify as a "whore?" Everyone who doesn't fly a Boeing? Wouldn't that be all non-military pilots before they get that big break?

Now seriously, what do you propose? That we all refuse to work for regionals? How will we work our way up? And, even if we could all refuse (which could never happen) all the airlines will have to do is train their own, even foriegners who don't know what they are getting into. Management will allways find a way. I agree with Surplus that it's the unions that allowed this situation to occur. They could have stopped it, and they still have a chance, but they seem unwilling to try.

But, if you have a better suggestion, I'm open to it. Thanks for reading.

 

[Clownpilot]

Excellent

Don't worry about the bullpen thing. No Comair pilot will EVER fly any ASA struck work, if it ever comes to that. If you want to stop this sort of thing from happening, join the rjdc and fight along with us.

Yep.
Join the RJDC and guarantee that your fellow pilots are stuck in low paying regional jobs for the rest of their natural lives.

I hope most guys on this board realize the real threat you people present and that you are their enemy. You skydiver, even though you aren't a pilot, feel compelled to post on these boards and there are actual pilots that support the RJDC; incredibly. Since they're pilots it is sometimes difficult to recognize the enemy in our midst. Management takes a clear position against labor and we know where the dangers are. These pilots appear to be peers.

Although your group has almost no support in the pilot ranks at any level, new pilots may be hoodwinked by the rhetoric. I can't tell you how sad it makes me to see pilots attempting to destroy the profession. The ONLY people that the RJDC benefits is those who KNOW they will never go anywhere higher than a regional job. They want to keep everybody down there with them. It's really pretty sick.

 

[Timebuilder]

I can see only one reason that regional pilots would be stuck in low paying jobs: the refusal of their union to treat them like union members, and bargain on their behalf the same way they bargain for their dwindling mainline ranks.

 

[Boeingman]

Hey Boeingman,
So, who do you classify as a "whore?" Everyone who doesn't fly a Boeing? Wouldn't that be all non-military pilots before they get that big break?

Now seriously, what do you propose? That we all refuse to work for regionals? How will we work our way up? And, even if we could all refuse (which could never happen) all the airlines will have to do is train their own, even foriegners who don't know what they are getting into. Management will allways find a way. I agree with Surplus that it's the unions that allowed this situation to occur. They could have stopped it, and they still have a chance, but they seem unwilling to try.

But, if you have a better suggestion, I'm open to it. Thanks for reading.

I'm not trying to suggest I have the answer. It is a fact of the industry that many of these companies will ALWAYS have pilots beating down the door. The unions are only a small part of the problematic equation.

You said it yourself above. "How will we work our way up". Managment will play on that and keep squeezing every chance they get. The attacks on mainline flying will proliferate through the established regional ranks as more of these alter ego carriers crop up. And they will have thousands of applications.

Until something fixes the pilot supply and demand problem, it will always haunt us. If it were possible to instill on kids coming out of these flight school factories that working for slave wages to build time, ultimatly kills their prospects for future bucks. I know, how do you get the experience.

Yes, I was spoiled. I hardly have any prop time, flew fighters and never worried about jet time (let alone flight time) when I was interviewing. But, I am positive I would never of accepted some of the lousy jobs after seperating from the AF that are out there today just to fly. However I think that most civilian guys will (or must) do that to get the experience.

PLEASE, NO ONE START A FLAME ABOUT CIV vs. MILITARY, not my intent.

It carries furtherr that people need to feed their families and will also fly larger equipment at C scale wages to put food on the table. So I'm not just talking about younger regional pilots.

The situation will eventually decimate the contracts ALPA has spent years negotiating. I guarantee the more established smaller airlines pay and growth will eventually get decimated as this low wage, alter ego cancer spread like wildfire.

 

[Timebuilder]

>>Until something fixes the pilot supply and demand problem, it will always haunt us. If it were possible to instill on kids coming out of these flight school factories that working for slave wages to build time, ultimatly kills their prospects for future bucks. I know, how do you get the experience.

When kids see the writing on the wall regarding the changes in commercial aviation, they will enroll in those flight schools in far fewer numbers, making pilots more scarce a commodity. Eventually, supply and demand finds a balance in the marketplace.

The market is the only force capable of "fixing" the supply problem.

 

[BigFlyr]

I don't mean to pick on you, but could you please tell me how you managed to classify Midway Airlines as a "major" airline in your mind?

I didn't mean to imply that Midway was or ever was going to be a major airline. I was just giving the only example I know of where both full-size jets and regional jets operated under the same roof.

 

[surplus1]

I didn't mean to imply that Midway was or ever was going to be a major airline. I was just giving the only example I know of where both full-size jets and regional jets operated under the same roof.

There is one example in North America where a major airline flys the CL-65. Air Canada.

It hasn't happened at any US based major airline because the pilots of those airlines have intentionally prevented it from happening.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

It hasn't happened at any US based major airline because the pilots of those airlines have intentionally prevented it from happening.

That statement is a bit simplistic. I defy you to name an instance when MGT wanted to operate an rj at a major and the pilots have prevented it.

It is accurate to say that we have not done as much as we could to achieve it, but to say we have intentionally prevented it is incorrect. The fact is, despite many allegations to the contrary, DALPA did propose pay rates for rj's during the last contract negotiations. That does not sound like the actions of a pilot group who is actively trying to prevent mgt from flying a specific type.

I know that you were referring to the PID. You are correct that ALPA prevented that from happening (which was, in my view, a mistake). However, it is important to note that even if it was granted, there is very little reason to believe that mgt would have then combined the lists and put rj's on mainline.

I think a more accurate statement would be that mgt has intentionally prevented j's at mainline, but the pilots have been too compliant with mgt's intentions.

 

[RJ Bum]

FlyDeltasJets

Could you please post those RJ rates you are refering too, I'm just curious. Thanks

 

[surplus1]

That statement is a bit simplistic. I defy you to name an instance when MGT wanted to operate an rj at a major and the pilots have prevented it.

Perhaps it is simplistic, but it is also accurate. If the mainline pilots had not tired to scope out all RJs, they would probably all be flying at the majors today. You gave management a free ride and they took it. Your argument is specious and I suspect you know that.

It is accurate to say that we have not done as much as we could to achieve it, but to say we have intentionally prevented it is incorrect. The fact is, despite many allegations to the contrary, DALPA did propose pay rates for rj's during the last contract negotiations. That does not sound like the actions of a pilot group who is actively trying to prevent mgt from flying a specific type.

I don't think it is incorrect at all. I also don't doubt that the DMEC proposed rates for an RJ. You conveniently neglected to mention which RJ. How about a guess that it was for the 70-seat RJ that you were trying to steal from us? Prior to that time, the only thing you proposed was more scope against the RJ. There is one other major airline that also proposed rates for an RJ. That was AA and they proposed rates for the 70-seater that they were trying to take from Eagle. Two predators making two predatory porposals, both trying to take from others. Hardly innovative.

It is quite safe and completely accurate to state that every major airline that could do so has attempted to scope the RJ out of existence. Recently, recognizing that you failed, 2 of you (AA and DL) decided to swipe the 70-seaters. so you proposed rates for them. AA even had a TA on it, but the membership rejected the TA. I could probably dig up those rates if you'd like. I have them somewhere. They actually undercut Comair's proposals. Tell you what, you post the rates that DL proposed and I'll post the ones that the APA TA'd. How's that.

I know that you were referring to the PID. You are correct that ALPA prevented that from happening (which was, in my view, a mistake). However, it is important to note that even if it was granted, there is very little reason to believe that mgt would have then combined the lists and put rj's on mainline.

Yes, ALPA prevented it and the DMEC fought it with lawyers. It was indeed a mistake and a very big one. Not to mention extremely stupid. Neither one of us knows what management would have done. I'll grant you they probably would not have jumped at it and may never have agreed. That depends a great deal on what was presented to them. There is little doubt that a reasonable deal, if presented to them, might well have saved Delta at least $680 millions. That's almost as much as they paid for ALL of ASA and 1/3 of what they paid to buy Comair.

I think a more accurate statement would be that mgt has intentionally prevented j's at mainline, but the pilots have been too compliant with mgt's intentions.

Not surprisingly, we disagree again. The union's policy of aparthied which was generated and is currently supported by all mainline MECs is what precluded the placement of RJs at the mainline. Management merely took advantage of the opportunity you gave them. Your own MEC has done it not once, but twice.

Don't forget who introduced the RJ to North America. When we knew it was going to happen, the truth is we tried desperately to get your attention and to make you aware of what could be done. Your leaders rejected every overture and even went so far as to demand that we apologize for making the attempts. FDJ, you just aren't aware of what went on behind the scenes or you would not make the statements that you do. I know what went down and I'm not guessing. I can document it all with names and dates and copies. I'll never do that in a public forum like this, but I assure you I'm not guessing about this.

You weren't even working for Delta at the time so you could not know first hand. I'm sure you've been told a lot of things and I don't blame you for believing them. Some may be true, but the majority is not. This "story" didn't start yesterday. It's been ongoing continuously since very early in 1993, before Comair took delivery of the 1st RJ ever flown in this country.

I have little doubt that if you really knew the truth, you'd be singing a very different tune. It's not you that I'm angry with, its a series of arrogant leaders of your destiny. When it comes to the RJ question you only had one leader since '89 with an ounce of vision and he was really a WAL pilot with a tenure that was based on a different agenda (a good one) and too brief to do anything.

Your airline has had a remarkable influence and leadership role in ALPA for the last 20 years (as properly you should have). You've done a lot of good things to be sure, but on this particular issue you completely blew an opportunity to make history. This little RJ has had as much impact on our industry as the introduction of jets in the early 60's. It''s still not 10 years old and may well wind up having more impact over the long term because of our failure to see it for what it was and deal with it in a way that would protect us all, particularly the core, which is the mainline.

The fact is that the mainline carriers while trying to protect themselves from the RJ, have put us all into a precarious position that could well upset the apple cart.

 

[PuffDriver]

Don't forget who introduced the RJ to North America. When we knew it was going to happen, the truth is we tried desperately to get your attention and to make you aware of what could be done. Your leaders rejected every overture and even went so far as to demand that we apologize for making the attempts. FDJ, you just aren't aware of what went on behind the scenes or you would not make the statements that you do. I know what went down and I'm not guessing. I can document it all with names and dates and copies. I'll never do that in a public forum like this, but I assure you I'm not guessing about this.

<<<<Man, what a weak statement.>>>>> "I've got the facts, but I won't reveal them. You were proven wrong on the ALPA forums as well, John.>>>>>>


You weren't even working for Delta at the time so you could not know first hand. I'm sure you've been told a lot of things and I don't blame you for believing them. Some may be true, but the majority is not. This "story" didn't start yesterday. It's been ongoing continuously since very early in 1993, before Comair took delivery of the 1st RJ ever flown in this country.

<<<Little John, you are not privy to plenty of things as well. Your "solution" doesn't solve anything.>>>>>

I have little doubt that if you really knew the truth, you'd be singing a very different tune. It's not you that I'm angry with, its a series of arrogant leaders of your destiny. When it comes to the RJ question you only had one leader since '89 with an ounce of vision and he was really a WAL pilot with a tenure that was based on a different agenda (a good one) and too brief to do anything.


<<<Truth, you and your RJDC cronies are suing for 100's of millions hoping to strike gold, because you saw your attempt at an end-run fail--and your pissed.>>>


Your airline has had a remarkable influence and leadership role in ALPA for the last 20 years (as properly you should have). You've done a lot of good things to be sure, but on this particular issue you completely blew an opportunity to make history. This little RJ has had as much impact on our industry as the introduction of jets in the early 60's. It''s still not 10 years old and may well wind up having more impact over the long term because of our failure to see it for what it was and deal with it in a way that would protect us all, particularly the core, which is the mainline.

The fact is that the mainline carriers while trying to protect themselves from the RJ, have put us all into a precarious position that could well upset the apple cart.

The RJ is just another airplane. While you may want to take credit for its inception, invention, success, at the end of the day it's just another airplane. My solution? Delta outright sells ASA and Comair, contracts Skywest, Chautauqua, etc for some 50 seat work, and buys 50+ seat jets for the mainline to truly revolutionize the industry.

We will then give Comair and ASA what they want--a crack at the big jets with the big salaries. Of course, they will have no codeshare, so all bets are off. We will then see the true greatness of the Comair leadership--NOT.


Edited to remove the language which triggered the censor.

 

[Dude]

Life's not fair.......BooHoo

Sometimes I read this board and think, right on! But when it comes to people taking shots at one another over their job choice, please. I remember, not long ago, I was debating the move from corporate to the regionals. At 27, I said what the hell. The majors seem to want the 121 experience, so I decided to fly for a regional. (One of the forementioned)

Let us not forget that we all make our own choices and at the end of the day, have to live with it. Prior to 9-11, I wasn't concerned about my career path, but now have to live with the fact that I make 1/3rd the amount I was earning before jumping ship to gain 121 experience and may be here for a good while. Oh well, my choice to move on and no one elses. Now I have to sit and wait like the rest hoping $82.00/hr and a 70-seat jet isn't my only payoff after 15 years of service.

Here it is; put out your resumes, go to interviews, and jump through the hoops like everyone else did, then bitch a little. But please, If you haven't done the time, do not assume to be qualified to comment on the "greed" of other pilots. Point is at the days end, they are thinking about their families and wives, not putting bigger jets on your companie's certificate.

Just had to vent a little, I'm feeling much better now.

Happy trails

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

FlyDeltasJets

Could you please post those RJ rates you are refering too, I'm just curious. Thanks

RJ,

I do not know them offhand, but I will attempt to get them for you. All I know is that we proposed rates (from a personal conversation with a member of my negotiating committee).

I'll try to get the rates as soon as I can, but that may not be public info.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Perhaps it is simplistic, but it is also accurate. If the mainline pilots had not tired to scope out all RJs, they would probably all be flying at the majors today. You gave management a free ride and they took it. Your argument is specious and I suspect you know that.

Sorry Surplus, I stand by my statement. Your argument did nothing to change my mind. You made an allegation that mainline pilots are actively trying to prevent mgt from operating rjs at mainline. I think that is incorrect. Mgt has no desire to ever operate rj's at mainline. They are the ones preventing it. ALPA is not.

I do not know that my argument is specious. In fact, the very reason that I posted was to correct the inaccuracies in your statement. You can point out many of ALPA's sins, and often you would be correct. However, to say that ALPA intentionally prevented management from operating a jet at mainline lacks even the appearance of accuracy.

I find it ironic that you claim that we are intentionally trying to keep management from operating rj's at mainline, and in the very same post you criticize us for trying to "steal" "your" 70-seaters.

You can't argue both sides of the issue. Either we want them or we don't. Which is it?