Comair, watch out!

[Timebuilder]

>>Until something fixes the pilot supply and demand problem, it will always haunt us. If it were possible to instill on kids coming out of these flight school factories that working for slave wages to build time, ultimatly kills their prospects for future bucks. I know, how do you get the experience.

When kids see the writing on the wall regarding the changes in commercial aviation, they will enroll in those flight schools in far fewer numbers, making pilots more scarce a commodity. Eventually, supply and demand finds a balance in the marketplace.

The market is the only force capable of "fixing" the supply problem.

 

[BigFlyr]

I don't mean to pick on you, but could you please tell me how you managed to classify Midway Airlines as a "major" airline in your mind?

I didn't mean to imply that Midway was or ever was going to be a major airline. I was just giving the only example I know of where both full-size jets and regional jets operated under the same roof.

 

[surplus1]

I didn't mean to imply that Midway was or ever was going to be a major airline. I was just giving the only example I know of where both full-size jets and regional jets operated under the same roof.

There is one example in North America where a major airline flys the CL-65. Air Canada.

It hasn't happened at any US based major airline because the pilots of those airlines have intentionally prevented it from happening.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

It hasn't happened at any US based major airline because the pilots of those airlines have intentionally prevented it from happening.

That statement is a bit simplistic. I defy you to name an instance when MGT wanted to operate an rj at a major and the pilots have prevented it.

It is accurate to say that we have not done as much as we could to achieve it, but to say we have intentionally prevented it is incorrect. The fact is, despite many allegations to the contrary, DALPA did propose pay rates for rj's during the last contract negotiations. That does not sound like the actions of a pilot group who is actively trying to prevent mgt from flying a specific type.

I know that you were referring to the PID. You are correct that ALPA prevented that from happening (which was, in my view, a mistake). However, it is important to note that even if it was granted, there is very little reason to believe that mgt would have then combined the lists and put rj's on mainline.

I think a more accurate statement would be that mgt has intentionally prevented j's at mainline, but the pilots have been too compliant with mgt's intentions.

 

[RJ Bum]

FlyDeltasJets

Could you please post those RJ rates you are refering too, I'm just curious. Thanks

 

[surplus1]

That statement is a bit simplistic. I defy you to name an instance when MGT wanted to operate an rj at a major and the pilots have prevented it.

Perhaps it is simplistic, but it is also accurate. If the mainline pilots had not tired to scope out all RJs, they would probably all be flying at the majors today. You gave management a free ride and they took it. Your argument is specious and I suspect you know that.

It is accurate to say that we have not done as much as we could to achieve it, but to say we have intentionally prevented it is incorrect. The fact is, despite many allegations to the contrary, DALPA did propose pay rates for rj's during the last contract negotiations. That does not sound like the actions of a pilot group who is actively trying to prevent mgt from flying a specific type.

I don't think it is incorrect at all. I also don't doubt that the DMEC proposed rates for an RJ. You conveniently neglected to mention which RJ. How about a guess that it was for the 70-seat RJ that you were trying to steal from us? Prior to that time, the only thing you proposed was more scope against the RJ. There is one other major airline that also proposed rates for an RJ. That was AA and they proposed rates for the 70-seater that they were trying to take from Eagle. Two predators making two predatory porposals, both trying to take from others. Hardly innovative.

It is quite safe and completely accurate to state that every major airline that could do so has attempted to scope the RJ out of existence. Recently, recognizing that you failed, 2 of you (AA and DL) decided to swipe the 70-seaters. so you proposed rates for them. AA even had a TA on it, but the membership rejected the TA. I could probably dig up those rates if you'd like. I have them somewhere. They actually undercut Comair's proposals. Tell you what, you post the rates that DL proposed and I'll post the ones that the APA TA'd. How's that.

I know that you were referring to the PID. You are correct that ALPA prevented that from happening (which was, in my view, a mistake). However, it is important to note that even if it was granted, there is very little reason to believe that mgt would have then combined the lists and put rj's on mainline.

Yes, ALPA prevented it and the DMEC fought it with lawyers. It was indeed a mistake and a very big one. Not to mention extremely stupid. Neither one of us knows what management would have done. I'll grant you they probably would not have jumped at it and may never have agreed. That depends a great deal on what was presented to them. There is little doubt that a reasonable deal, if presented to them, might well have saved Delta at least $680 millions. That's almost as much as they paid for ALL of ASA and 1/3 of what they paid to buy Comair.

I think a more accurate statement would be that mgt has intentionally prevented j's at mainline, but the pilots have been too compliant with mgt's intentions.

Not surprisingly, we disagree again. The union's policy of aparthied which was generated and is currently supported by all mainline MECs is what precluded the placement of RJs at the mainline. Management merely took advantage of the opportunity you gave them. Your own MEC has done it not once, but twice.

Don't forget who introduced the RJ to North America. When we knew it was going to happen, the truth is we tried desperately to get your attention and to make you aware of what could be done. Your leaders rejected every overture and even went so far as to demand that we apologize for making the attempts. FDJ, you just aren't aware of what went on behind the scenes or you would not make the statements that you do. I know what went down and I'm not guessing. I can document it all with names and dates and copies. I'll never do that in a public forum like this, but I assure you I'm not guessing about this.

You weren't even working for Delta at the time so you could not know first hand. I'm sure you've been told a lot of things and I don't blame you for believing them. Some may be true, but the majority is not. This "story" didn't start yesterday. It's been ongoing continuously since very early in 1993, before Comair took delivery of the 1st RJ ever flown in this country.

I have little doubt that if you really knew the truth, you'd be singing a very different tune. It's not you that I'm angry with, its a series of arrogant leaders of your destiny. When it comes to the RJ question you only had one leader since '89 with an ounce of vision and he was really a WAL pilot with a tenure that was based on a different agenda (a good one) and too brief to do anything.

Your airline has had a remarkable influence and leadership role in ALPA for the last 20 years (as properly you should have). You've done a lot of good things to be sure, but on this particular issue you completely blew an opportunity to make history. This little RJ has had as much impact on our industry as the introduction of jets in the early 60's. It''s still not 10 years old and may well wind up having more impact over the long term because of our failure to see it for what it was and deal with it in a way that would protect us all, particularly the core, which is the mainline.

The fact is that the mainline carriers while trying to protect themselves from the RJ, have put us all into a precarious position that could well upset the apple cart.

 

[PuffDriver]

Don't forget who introduced the RJ to North America. When we knew it was going to happen, the truth is we tried desperately to get your attention and to make you aware of what could be done. Your leaders rejected every overture and even went so far as to demand that we apologize for making the attempts. FDJ, you just aren't aware of what went on behind the scenes or you would not make the statements that you do. I know what went down and I'm not guessing. I can document it all with names and dates and copies. I'll never do that in a public forum like this, but I assure you I'm not guessing about this.

<<<<Man, what a weak statement.>>>>> "I've got the facts, but I won't reveal them. You were proven wrong on the ALPA forums as well, John.>>>>>>


You weren't even working for Delta at the time so you could not know first hand. I'm sure you've been told a lot of things and I don't blame you for believing them. Some may be true, but the majority is not. This "story" didn't start yesterday. It's been ongoing continuously since very early in 1993, before Comair took delivery of the 1st RJ ever flown in this country.

<<<Little John, you are not privy to plenty of things as well. Your "solution" doesn't solve anything.>>>>>

I have little doubt that if you really knew the truth, you'd be singing a very different tune. It's not you that I'm angry with, its a series of arrogant leaders of your destiny. When it comes to the RJ question you only had one leader since '89 with an ounce of vision and he was really a WAL pilot with a tenure that was based on a different agenda (a good one) and too brief to do anything.


<<<Truth, you and your RJDC cronies are suing for 100's of millions hoping to strike gold, because you saw your attempt at an end-run fail--and your pissed.>>>


Your airline has had a remarkable influence and leadership role in ALPA for the last 20 years (as properly you should have). You've done a lot of good things to be sure, but on this particular issue you completely blew an opportunity to make history. This little RJ has had as much impact on our industry as the introduction of jets in the early 60's. It''s still not 10 years old and may well wind up having more impact over the long term because of our failure to see it for what it was and deal with it in a way that would protect us all, particularly the core, which is the mainline.

The fact is that the mainline carriers while trying to protect themselves from the RJ, have put us all into a precarious position that could well upset the apple cart.

The RJ is just another airplane. While you may want to take credit for its inception, invention, success, at the end of the day it's just another airplane. My solution? Delta outright sells ASA and Comair, contracts Skywest, Chautauqua, etc for some 50 seat work, and buys 50+ seat jets for the mainline to truly revolutionize the industry.

We will then give Comair and ASA what they want--a crack at the big jets with the big salaries. Of course, they will have no codeshare, so all bets are off. We will then see the true greatness of the Comair leadership--NOT.


Edited to remove the language which triggered the censor.

 

[Dude]

Life's not fair.......BooHoo

Sometimes I read this board and think, right on! But when it comes to people taking shots at one another over their job choice, please. I remember, not long ago, I was debating the move from corporate to the regionals. At 27, I said what the hell. The majors seem to want the 121 experience, so I decided to fly for a regional. (One of the forementioned)

Let us not forget that we all make our own choices and at the end of the day, have to live with it. Prior to 9-11, I wasn't concerned about my career path, but now have to live with the fact that I make 1/3rd the amount I was earning before jumping ship to gain 121 experience and may be here for a good while. Oh well, my choice to move on and no one elses. Now I have to sit and wait like the rest hoping $82.00/hr and a 70-seat jet isn't my only payoff after 15 years of service.

Here it is; put out your resumes, go to interviews, and jump through the hoops like everyone else did, then bitch a little. But please, If you haven't done the time, do not assume to be qualified to comment on the "greed" of other pilots. Point is at the days end, they are thinking about their families and wives, not putting bigger jets on your companie's certificate.

Just had to vent a little, I'm feeling much better now.

Happy trails

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

FlyDeltasJets

Could you please post those RJ rates you are refering too, I'm just curious. Thanks

RJ,

I do not know them offhand, but I will attempt to get them for you. All I know is that we proposed rates (from a personal conversation with a member of my negotiating committee).

I'll try to get the rates as soon as I can, but that may not be public info.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Perhaps it is simplistic, but it is also accurate. If the mainline pilots had not tired to scope out all RJs, they would probably all be flying at the majors today. You gave management a free ride and they took it. Your argument is specious and I suspect you know that.

Sorry Surplus, I stand by my statement. Your argument did nothing to change my mind. You made an allegation that mainline pilots are actively trying to prevent mgt from operating rjs at mainline. I think that is incorrect. Mgt has no desire to ever operate rj's at mainline. They are the ones preventing it. ALPA is not.

I do not know that my argument is specious. In fact, the very reason that I posted was to correct the inaccuracies in your statement. You can point out many of ALPA's sins, and often you would be correct. However, to say that ALPA intentionally prevented management from operating a jet at mainline lacks even the appearance of accuracy.

I find it ironic that you claim that we are intentionally trying to keep management from operating rj's at mainline, and in the very same post you criticize us for trying to "steal" "your" 70-seaters.

You can't argue both sides of the issue. Either we want them or we don't. Which is it?