comair to buy aca dojets

[treetopflyer]

strange message today in the rumor mill that the comair mec or cp was saying something about buying the aca dorniers or something like that. thats funny, because things like that are being said over here too.

 

[lowecur]

ACE

Makes perfect sense to me.

This is all part of the chess game being played between UAL and ACA. ACA knows it has to counter the 170's that UAL will bring to IAD with Chautauqua. They need cash and lots of it, that's why I mentioned on my previous thread if anyone was interested in half of the CRJ 200's. ACA knows it can't compete against Chautauqua with CRJ 200's. They need the match with a 170 order of their own. I'm sure Comair (DL) would be glad to take the Dornier's off their hands at a discounted price, and my guess is ACA will jump at it.

 

[DoinTime]

I was under the impression that all of the DoJets were under lease by ACA (possibly a sublease through Delta) in which case there would be no equity gained (except through spare parts inventory) through the sale from one carrier to another. If anything ACA would take a huge hit because of reduced aircraft value (especially anything made by Dornier) over the past few years.

I would bet that ACA tries to hold on to the Delta contract as long as possible as it will be a guaranteed source of income as they venture out on their own. I'm sure a few well timed lawsuits and appeals could drag out any action against ACA by Delta for a year or so.

 

[46Driver]

I too think ACA will hold onto the Dorniers for a while longer - but eventually we will get rid of them or Delta will take them. However, I am betting it won't be anything less than a couple of years.

As for competing with Chatauqua. First, ACA has $250M in the bank - about double what JetBlue had when they started. Second, a CRJ now - up and running with the crews trained and maintenance ready - is better than a EMB-170 down the road. (How soon can CHQ get their EMB-170's?) Right now, time is more important than the size of the aircraft so I don't think you will see us losing any of the CRJ's. I do think the J-41's will be gone the first day though.

 

[WhiteCloud]

I too think ACA will hold onto the Dorniers for a while longer - but eventually we will get rid of them or Delta will take them. However, I am betting it won't be anything less than a couple of years.

As for competing with Chatauqua. First, ACA has $250M in the bank - about double what JetBlue had when they started. Second, a CRJ now - up and running with the crews trained and maintenance ready - is better than a EMB-170 down the road. (How soon can CHQ get their EMB-170's?) Right now, time is more important than the size of the aircraft so I don't think you will see us losing any of the CRJ's. I do think the J-41's will be gone the first day though.

Makes sense to me that ACA would at least be looking at moving the DOJets out. ACA doesn't have a whole lot of the DOJets to begin with. The "one type" fleet concept has proven itself as a good way to minimize training and maintenence costs.

 

[lowecur]

Chautauqua conceivably could have 170's at the beginning of 2004. GECAS still has 5 a/c left from their contract purchase that haven't been picked up by US Airways. GECAS ordered a few years ago, and would have some of the earliest manufacturing slots. ERJ says they can produce 6 per month (US Airways delivery is scheduling 4 per month), plus the are other various carriers that account for around 30 units the first year. Also, it's been said US Airways will take some 175's (which should be available in the 3rd Q of 04), although this has not been officially announced.

The 175's are the best value in my mind, but there is a ton of jockeying going on as to who will make the first order. Speculation on the Star Alliance taking quite a few in addition to the 190/195 is possible. This would also be the perfect a/c for SWA, but they would need to move before the end of Oct to secure valuable manufacturing slots. Look for Chautauqua to possibly grab a few if they can get their contract approved.

I see Major Lee is speculating on the Major Board that an order for 100 seat a/c has been sent to purchasing for approval at DL. This could be the 717, or it may be the 190/195. My guess is that DL could afford to wait on 717, so a purchase order approval now indicates the 190/195. DL may want to get in ahead of the Star Alliance.

Embraer is sitting in a very enviable position.

As far as the Dorniers, strategically it would make more sense to let them go now. RJ prices are only going to go down in 2 years, as the possibility that one of the majors will fail or cut back could be possible. Even if it would be a flat cash out, it's better to unload that part of the business now and focus on the new LCC.

 

[rjcap]

My guess is that DL could afford to wait on 717, so a purchase order approval now indicates the 190/195. DL may want to get in ahead of the Star Alliance.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the EMB 190 is not yet built, has not yet flown is not yet certified. The initial delivery slots are taken by Jetblue for I believe 100 aircraft ?

It will be into 2007 until anybody else can get their hands on that plane.

 

[lowecur]

rjcap

I believe B6 intends to take take 18 per year, unless they exercize their options. If they exercize their options then this would increase to 36 per year. If Embraer can produce 6 per month, then there are still slots open for the 190. Certification is scheduled for 3Q/2005.

The 195 has only 15 orders from the Swiss. This a/c for receive certification in 3Q/2006. So this is wide open.

DL may also look at the 175 which seat 86.

 

[lowecur]

I believe Embraer will make an announcement for increased production capacity in the near future. The announcement will probably include the opening of a US based mfg facility. Chatter has it that Embraer has been talking with officials in South Carolina. They have already commited to building a mfg facility in Jacksonville for their partnership with Lockheed on the military surveilance a/c.

They cannot afford to turn away orders for the 170/190 series because of inadequate production facilities. The RRJ 60-100 seat a/c could receive certification by 2008. This is a joint project with Boeing.

 

[ACE]

Lowecur ,

In reference to your first post on this thread, think again. I have no reason to create a new user name. However, I see your new one was just registered this month.

 

[asarjfo]

According to our MEC chairman, nobody will likely get the DoJets because the parts are like "gold". It is simply to expensive to maintain the airplane since the company went tits up.

If I had to guess, I would bet Chiti taco will move in with the EMB-135 if ACA pulls out of the Delta agreement.

 

[Cappy]

Re: ACE

Makes perfect sense to me.

This is all part of the chess game being played between UAL and ACA. ACA knows it has to counter the 170's that UAL will bring to IAD with Chautauqua. They need cash and lots of it, that's why I mentioned on my previous thread if anyone was interested in half of the CRJ 200's. ACA knows it can't compete against Chautauqua with CRJ 200's. They need the match with a 170 order of their own. I'm sure Comair (DL) would be glad to take the Dornier's off their hands at a discounted price, and my guess is ACA will jump at it.

Where did you get information that Chautauqua is getting EMB-170's? Flying for the UAL code or UsAir?

ACA currently has $270 million in cash now and $300 mil by year-end. Estimates are $310 to $330 million by the time Goldilocs is started.

ACA will NOT be getting the EMB-170. ACA will order the Airbus or Boeing narrowbody product within the next 60 days, according to company press releases.

Facts please!

 

[601Pilot]

ACA Dojets

If I understand the DAL and DAL pilots agreement,
then DAL will end up buying those Dojets, but
it's anyones guess where they will go. The first
day ACA flies something larger than 70 seats,
then the Delta contract will be cancelled by DAL.
According to that contract, DAL is responsible
for the leases on the Dojets and they will have
to do something with them. I'm not sure who
will get them (ASA, Comair, Chit, or Skywest)
or who will take over those routes.

601Pilot

 

[Tim47SIP]

601

The first day ACA flies something larger than 70 seats,
then the Delta contract will be cancelled by DAL.
According to that contract, DAL is responsible
for the leases on the Dojets and they will have
to do something with them.

Well, the contract does imply that ACA can not operate any aircraft >70 Seats, but if ACA voids that contract by non adhearence, then Delta should not have to pay for the leases unless they already owned the leases. I have read several articles that have stated that ACA management is convinced that they have a loophole to operate the 73's on a secondary certificate. Dont know if that will hold water, but anything is possible. Just a guess, but with the associated costs of the Do Jets, Delta would more than likely sublease them, sell them, or send them to the desert. I really don't think that Delta will want to tackle training, MX and pilots, FAA, etc. for such a few number of aircraft. Just a thought.

 

[exphojump]

The ACAI/DAL contract:

http://www.edgar-online.com/bin/edgardoc/finSys_main.asp?dcn=0000904020-99-000015&nad=

ARTICLE 2. EXCLUSIVITY.

A. With the exception of (i) flights operated by ACA with United Airlines, Inc. or its successors ("United"), (ii) code share flights with any non-U.S. carrier with which United has a code-share agreement, and (iii) flights operated solely under the "DH" and Operator two letter designator code, ACA agrees to list its flights only under Delta's code during the term of this Agreement (the "Delta Connection Flights").

B. ACA must obtain Delta's approval if it chooses to enter into a code-sharing arrangement with another carrier (other than United or a non-U.S. carrier with which United has a code share arrangement).

C. Other than with United or a non-U.S. carrier with which United has a code share arrangement, ACA (or any affiliated company) may not operate flights for any other carrier without Delta's prior written approval other ------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- and other than in connection with the disposition of ACA's turboprop aircraft.

D. ACA shall not publish or operate any other scheduled flights in any city pair that includes ------------------------------- without Delta's prior written consent.


ARTICLE 11. TERM AND TERMINATION.

A. This Agreement is effective on the date first written above and will continue thereafter until March 31, 2010. At the end of such initial term, Delta shall have the right to extend the term of the Agreement for an additional five (5) years on the same terms and conditions. In the event of a Merger (as defined below) or Change of Control (as defined below) of Holdings or Operator, Delta shall have the right to extend the term of the Agreement for an additional ten (10) years beyond the applicable termination date of this Agreement pursuant to this Article 11(A).

D. Notwithstanding the provisions of Articles 11(B) and (C), Delta shall have the right to terminate this Agreement immediately and at its sole option upon the occurrence of one or more of the following:

(i) Holdings or Operator agrees to merge into or with any entity, to be acquired by any entity, to sell all or substantially all of its assets to another entity, or enters into a letter of intent, or similar document, to merge into or with any entity or to be acquired by any entity or to sell all or substantially all of its assets to another entity (unless any such letter of intent or similar document in contains a provision whereby Delta's prior approval is a condition precedent to the merger or acquisition), unless Holdings or Operator, as applicable, is the acquiring or surviving entity (each such event, a "Merger");

(ii) The acquisition by any individual, entity or group (within the meaning of Section
13(d)(3) or 14(d)(2) of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934 (the "Exchange Act")) (a "Person") of beneficial ownership (within the meaning of Rule 13d-3 promulgated under the Exchange Act) of more than --- of either (a) the then outstanding shares of common stock of Holdings or Operator, or
(b) the combined voting power of the then outstanding voting securities of either Holdings or Operator entitled to vote generally in the election of such party's directors (each such event, a "Change of Control");

(iii) Operator's level of safety with respect to its operation of the Aircraft is not reasonably satisfactory to Delta;

(iv) pursuant to Article 10(B) hereof;

(v) if Operator fails to maintain any material insurance pursuant to Articles 13 and 14 of this Agreement.

E. Notwithstanding the provisions of Articles 11(A), (B), (C) and (D) hereof, Delta may terminate this Agreement, with or without cause, in its sole discretion, on not less than one hundred eighty (180) days' prior written notice to ACA; ------



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

F. Termination of this Agreement for any reason shall not relieve either party of rights and obligations incurred prior to the effective date of termination.



There is more if you wish to dig through the 10Q. From what I read there is no scope on the size of aircraft, ACAI is free to operate under it's own airline code, certain city pairs are off limits to the new LCC and DAL must assume the leases on the FRJs if it terminates with 180 days notice(minimum).

Have fun,

 

[RJPilott]

I heard that Delta will buy the FRJ's and give the option to ACA FRJ pilots to come with the FRJ's. My source also stated that Delta will work with DALPA to integrate ACA FRJ pilots on the Delta seniority list in order of direct seniority with no fences. This in order to get some DAL furloughees back since Comair wouldnt give pref. hiring.

 

[lowecur]

cappy

Now the day these message boards go to "facts only", then that's the day they will shut it down. Message Boards are filled with rumor, inuendo, and speculations.

Speaking of facts, maybe you could point to me where it was said ACAI will have the kind of money you are quoting. In everything I've read, the maximum they will have is close to $250M at the beginning of the 3Q/04.

As far as the 170 speculation, there have been many threads in the past 2 weeks on Chautauquas new TA, and the possibility of the 170 order. Will it happen? I don't know for sure, but you can't discount the possibility.

Incidently, if you care to go over to the ACAI board on CBS Marketwatch, you'll see a thread posted by Bob10e about the subject of Embraer being brought into negotiations by ACAI. Bob10e is a longtime AAI poster who has connections with Boeing. He has a high level of credibility, and it makes sense to me. If you don't buy it, so be it.

In any case don't let it keep you up at night.

 

[46Driver]

ACA pilots getting Delta seniority numbers in exchange for giving the Dorniers to mainline????? I'll believe that when pigs fly, no, when pigs are in space.... Come to think of it, I do remember the Muppet Show with "Pigs in Spaceeeee!" Who freakin' knows what is going to happen.

 

[HAZ-MAT]

Okay... the other day i saw an ACA crj with no UAL titles on it, and my buddy that flies for ACA said it was being used as a charter jet.. but then i saw a J-41 with the U titles missing... are you painting them over?? or was that another "charter" plane?

 

[Wacopilot]

RJPilott...uhhhhh, right.

Delta does own the FRJ's and has a leaseback deal with ACA. What I heard was that the airplanes will come to CMR...just the airplanes. That's the fresh word from the crewroom.

Go Bucs!