JI Gone OH
Scope is NOT for Sale
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Comair Rumors
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General Lee
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Medeco,
I know the regional salaries are poor, and used to fly Brasilias back in the early '90s and I know what you mean. I don't know what they would work out, that is up to the negotiators. I just don't think one group should be singled out because they have a great contract. That doesn't mean that everyone should be taxed the same----of course the mainline pilots should take a bigger hit---but not the only hit. Management doesn't really want to go after the other groups because they don't want other unions on the property. We at Dalpa pay big bucks to protect ourselves, and the others mainline work groups do not. Everyone should have to contribute a little---including management. As I said before, I would NOT expect the other groups to contribute the same % as we do, but everyone really is in this together, and everyone should have to sacrifice. As far as Comair and ASA pilots, that is up to their negotiators---not Dalpa. They have their own contracts and their own interests. I have heard that if we give up 15%---that would save around $270 million a year. If the other groups contribute 5-10%, along with management---I bet we could get a combined total of $500 million a year---helping with that debt problem. This is a problem for everyone, and I think we will give a lot and do our part eventually.
Sleepy,
I don't think our MEC chair stated that "We also want Comair/ASA to give some back..." but, I think he said that we at Dalpa were not going to be the only ones to sacrifice. You can make up your own conclusions---but I think that really means the other work groups at Delta--including management. Our Dalpa MEC has no control of your own contract---and there is no way they can force you into taking any cuts---I think you know that. We negotiated the C2K contract fairly, and are willing to give up some pay----but to be the only ones to do so would show the others that unions always get slapped. That is what management is trying to show the flt attendants and mechanics---don't go union. This is a problem for everyone---including you---and your negotiators will have to represent you.
Bye Bye--General Lee
I know the regional salaries are poor, and used to fly Brasilias back in the early '90s and I know what you mean. I don't know what they would work out, that is up to the negotiators. I just don't think one group should be singled out because they have a great contract. That doesn't mean that everyone should be taxed the same----of course the mainline pilots should take a bigger hit---but not the only hit. Management doesn't really want to go after the other groups because they don't want other unions on the property. We at Dalpa pay big bucks to protect ourselves, and the others mainline work groups do not. Everyone should have to contribute a little---including management. As I said before, I would NOT expect the other groups to contribute the same % as we do, but everyone really is in this together, and everyone should have to sacrifice. As far as Comair and ASA pilots, that is up to their negotiators---not Dalpa. They have their own contracts and their own interests. I have heard that if we give up 15%---that would save around $270 million a year. If the other groups contribute 5-10%, along with management---I bet we could get a combined total of $500 million a year---helping with that debt problem. This is a problem for everyone, and I think we will give a lot and do our part eventually.
Sleepy,
I don't think our MEC chair stated that "We also want Comair/ASA to give some back..." but, I think he said that we at Dalpa were not going to be the only ones to sacrifice. You can make up your own conclusions---but I think that really means the other work groups at Delta--including management. Our Dalpa MEC has no control of your own contract---and there is no way they can force you into taking any cuts---I think you know that. We negotiated the C2K contract fairly, and are willing to give up some pay----but to be the only ones to do so would show the others that unions always get slapped. That is what management is trying to show the flt attendants and mechanics---don't go union. This is a problem for everyone---including you---and your negotiators will have to represent you.
Bye Bye--General Lee
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General Lee,
We are not the highest paid pilots for our equipment type. For us to take cuts is rediculous. A few years ago, you guys were putting us all down for not demanding higher pay. Now you want us to take cuts too. Let me put it this way, I would rather see Delta close their doors than to take a single penny in cuts.
I hope all the furloughs come back soon and you guys remain the highest paid pilots. But the thought that we should take cuts too is wrong. Do you know how much we make? Good lord.
We are not the highest paid pilots for our equipment type. For us to take cuts is rediculous. A few years ago, you guys were putting us all down for not demanding higher pay. Now you want us to take cuts too. Let me put it this way, I would rather see Delta close their doors than to take a single penny in cuts.
I hope all the furloughs come back soon and you guys remain the highest paid pilots. But the thought that we should take cuts too is wrong. Do you know how much we make? Good lord.
IFLYASA
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General, I think that if it comes out that your MEC is behind the Comair concession thing, then it wil give the RJDC a great issue. It would be a PR coup for them.
How about a concession system that is like our tax system (progressive). The more money you make, the bigger the concession rate. DAL management would be at the 39% concession rate. DAL pilots would be at the 25 to 35% concession rate, and ASA and Comair pilots would (because of our super low pay and no benefits) get the Earned Income Concession Credit or EICC. A portion of the DAL Management and Pilots concessions would be transfered to the ASA and Comair pilots because we don't make enough money to actually give a concession.
How about a concession system that is like our tax system (progressive). The more money you make, the bigger the concession rate. DAL management would be at the 39% concession rate. DAL pilots would be at the 25 to 35% concession rate, and ASA and Comair pilots would (because of our super low pay and no benefits) get the Earned Income Concession Credit or EICC. A portion of the DAL Management and Pilots concessions would be transfered to the ASA and Comair pilots because we don't make enough money to actually give a concession.
IFLYASA,
Thanks for the good post.
I have always supported the Delta pilots. I want the furloughed people to come back as soon as possible. However, the thought that we should share in the pay cuts pisses me off. Like I said earlier, we are not the highest paid pilots for our equipment AND we are making money. Why should we take cuts? Even if you guys take the proposed cuts, you would still be the highest paid pilots and you're still loosing money. I would rather have us all go out of business than for ASA/Comair to take any cuts at all. You guys need to get real.
Thanks for the good post.
I have always supported the Delta pilots. I want the furloughed people to come back as soon as possible. However, the thought that we should share in the pay cuts pisses me off. Like I said earlier, we are not the highest paid pilots for our equipment AND we are making money. Why should we take cuts? Even if you guys take the proposed cuts, you would still be the highest paid pilots and you're still loosing money. I would rather have us all go out of business than for ASA/Comair to take any cuts at all. You guys need to get real.
General Lee
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Sleepy,
I never said the cuts would be the same. I love how everyone likes to say that Delta mainline is the one losing money---the whole corporation is losing money due to the debt payments. Delta mainline made an operational profit of $31 million in June, and probably more in July and August. You and I are in the same corporation----Delta INC. Delta INC owns ASA/Comair, and mainline Delta. Got it?
ASACAP,
So, Comair has the highest pay in the regionals. Should they take a major cut also just like we should since we are the highest paid mainline? I am not saying that the cuts should be equal---but everyone who has a stake in this job should make a sacrifice.
IFLYASA,
I know the salaries are lower at ASA. (I've been in that range too--even lower in early '90s) But, some of you might want to eventually go up to Delta mainline (and the ASA pilots will have a chance)---and your chance at higher salaries awaits you. Regardless, your negotiators will do the negotiating for you---not us. If they don't want to give---then that is up to them.
Bye Bye--General Lee
I never said the cuts would be the same. I love how everyone likes to say that Delta mainline is the one losing money---the whole corporation is losing money due to the debt payments. Delta mainline made an operational profit of $31 million in June, and probably more in July and August. You and I are in the same corporation----Delta INC. Delta INC owns ASA/Comair, and mainline Delta. Got it?
ASACAP,
So, Comair has the highest pay in the regionals. Should they take a major cut also just like we should since we are the highest paid mainline? I am not saying that the cuts should be equal---but everyone who has a stake in this job should make a sacrifice.
IFLYASA,
I know the salaries are lower at ASA. (I've been in that range too--even lower in early '90s) But, some of you might want to eventually go up to Delta mainline (and the ASA pilots will have a chance)---and your chance at higher salaries awaits you. Regardless, your negotiators will do the negotiating for you---not us. If they don't want to give---then that is up to them.
Bye Bye--General Lee
Palerider957
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- Jan 30, 2003
- Posts
- 975
General,
If the DAL pilot group wants to choose the singular issue to align ASA/CMR pilots AGAINST them, keep pushing the concessions gig. Really, concessions at our level are rediculous. I have to say I'm with RJCAP, and IFLYASA.... at this point in my career I'd rather see the doors close and ASA/CMR/DAL go the way of the dinosaurs, then take a pay cut.
We all bit.ch and moan about poor salaries, and how we can make more money doing other things. If concessions are thrown at us, I simply wont' be able to afford to continue in this job--hence, I'll have nothing to lose.
At some point we have to have some self respect as professionals. I don't relish the idea of a strike, but I would support it if it came to that.
With our new contract (whenever that comes around), I will NOT vote for anything that doesn't include a reasonable wage increase and some QOL improvements.
We can talk about the Delta "famliy," but this is where I come out.
We work WAY too hard for this.
If the DAL pilot group wants to choose the singular issue to align ASA/CMR pilots AGAINST them, keep pushing the concessions gig. Really, concessions at our level are rediculous. I have to say I'm with RJCAP, and IFLYASA.... at this point in my career I'd rather see the doors close and ASA/CMR/DAL go the way of the dinosaurs, then take a pay cut.
We all bit.ch and moan about poor salaries, and how we can make more money doing other things. If concessions are thrown at us, I simply wont' be able to afford to continue in this job--hence, I'll have nothing to lose.
At some point we have to have some self respect as professionals. I don't relish the idea of a strike, but I would support it if it came to that.
With our new contract (whenever that comes around), I will NOT vote for anything that doesn't include a reasonable wage increase and some QOL improvements.
We can talk about the Delta "famliy," but this is where I come out.
We work WAY too hard for this.
General Lee
Well-known member
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- Aug 24, 2002
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- 20,442
Palerider957,
I know you work hard and make squat--I was there too. If you think this is the end of your career, then I could see why you might want to quit. But, it is not. If you are at ASA you will probably have a chance to go higher---and there will ABSOLUTELY be a good chance for you guys to interview at the big D when they start at it again. The rumors out today include: management has already sent the 100 seat request to "purchasing", there will be a Hawaii crew base for the 767-400, and they will also start flying it to Europe now that it has a crew rest seat. Things are moving and things will get better. I don't know if they will ask you for a pay cut or maybe they want you to take a smaller raise---I don't know. But, all we are asking for is for everyone to contribute---and the amount might be miniscule. I don't know the stats, but I would think that your portion would be very small--but I don't know. You just can't single out one employee group---the only one that is unionized---and expect for them to take the brunt when they are the only ones who have a contract. As far as your group----it is not up to us, but rather your negotiators. If they give up money, it is not our fault.
Bye Bye--General Lee
I know you work hard and make squat--I was there too. If you think this is the end of your career, then I could see why you might want to quit. But, it is not. If you are at ASA you will probably have a chance to go higher---and there will ABSOLUTELY be a good chance for you guys to interview at the big D when they start at it again. The rumors out today include: management has already sent the 100 seat request to "purchasing", there will be a Hawaii crew base for the 767-400, and they will also start flying it to Europe now that it has a crew rest seat. Things are moving and things will get better. I don't know if they will ask you for a pay cut or maybe they want you to take a smaller raise---I don't know. But, all we are asking for is for everyone to contribute---and the amount might be miniscule. I don't know the stats, but I would think that your portion would be very small--but I don't know. You just can't single out one employee group---the only one that is unionized---and expect for them to take the brunt when they are the only ones who have a contract. As far as your group----it is not up to us, but rather your negotiators. If they give up money, it is not our fault.
Bye Bye--General Lee
AFELLOWAVIATOR
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- Mar 6, 2002
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- 411
Gen.,
Why don't you go away? You obviously feel mighty good about yourself, it shows. You are a typical mainline pilot who when times were good, and our MEC had the right idea, merge, you guys denied we were even remotely related. Now when times are bad for you, we are one big family, and we all need to contribute.
There will be no concessions at Comair. I know it is hard to understand the concept, but we will not be pushed around by any one. We have already shown this a number of times, like when burgey attempted to ramrod our MEC into that BS "deal".
Like I have said a number of times, you sir, are so full of yourself, it is comical.
Why don't you go away? You obviously feel mighty good about yourself, it shows. You are a typical mainline pilot who when times were good, and our MEC had the right idea, merge, you guys denied we were even remotely related. Now when times are bad for you, we are one big family, and we all need to contribute.
There will be no concessions at Comair. I know it is hard to understand the concept, but we will not be pushed around by any one. We have already shown this a number of times, like when burgey attempted to ramrod our MEC into that BS "deal".
Like I have said a number of times, you sir, are so full of yourself, it is comical.
Word is Radamacher offered a deal similar to the UAL/Skywest deal for furloughed DALPA pilots in exchange for the CRJ 700. DAL offered it to DALPA and was told to shove it. I guess we're the bad guys! DALPA doesn't care about it's own furloughee's. The talk big, but they (furloughee's) are a bargaining chip like ASA/Comair.
~~~^~~~
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General, who elected the Delta MEC to representa ASA and Comair pilots? Particularly when it comes to pay cuts? This does demonstrate the issue the RJDC is flighting for REPRESENTATION. You Delta Pilots wanted no part of us and your MEC Chairman lied to keep up separate, but now that the Delta pilots think they can offset some of their pay cuts by securing concessions from other groups, we are all on the same team again.General Lee said:ASACAP,
So, Comair has the highest pay in the regionals. Should they take a major cut also just like we should since we are the highest paid mainline? I am not saying that the cuts should be equal---but everyone who has a stake in this job should make a sacrifice.
Bye Bye--General Lee
I will not re hash all the old arguements about how ASA and Comair are profitable. Everyone knows it.
What I will add is that there were rumors of the Delta MEC's tactics coming out of the RJDC 8 months ago and then I did not believe it. Dan Ford was right - just so far ahead of his time that it is hard to believe, but history always comes around to show the correctness of his reasoning.
That having been said, if his track record remains on track, ALPA should settle this and lasso that runaway MEC of yours, pronto! Dan Ford for ALPA President! Lord knows we need some leadership at National.
~~~^~~~
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FlyComAirJets
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Three years ago the Delta MEC strenuously opposed the PID between mainline and ASA/Comar because it was convenient for them to say we were separate companies on any number of minute reasons.
Now in a time of prolonged economic downturn, they say, hey, we are all one company after all and so every employee group should share in the paycuts ... because it is convenient .
Hypocricy has no bounds here.
Now in a time of prolonged economic downturn, they say, hey, we are all one company after all and so every employee group should share in the paycuts ... because it is convenient .
Hypocricy has no bounds here.
General Lee
Well-known member
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- Aug 24, 2002
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- 20,442
Man alive! I got responses from all of the regulars. I will try to respond to each:
Afellowaviator,
You sir, don't like me, and it shows. I am not trying to be "full of myself." I am trying to give you a point of view---or an opinion---and I am not trying to make anyone mad. Just because you don't like my conclusions or my own opinions---you like to tell me to "go away." That's not going to happen, and you know it. I am not the one handing down your paycut, or anyone's paycut. I really don't know what is going on behind closed doors. I respect your opinion on this opinion board, so why don't you return the favor?
Comrcap,
Word is that there was no "word is." How do we know that happened? A serious rumor that we heard was that the 100 seater order just went to "purchasing." Maybe when we order some 100 seaters you will get a larger 70 seat order. You can't expect us to sit by and watch you grow huge with 1060 of our guys on the street---and the "offer" by Randy is moot now because most of our furloughs would not want to go to Comair for "CRM" reasons. That really really made us mad---you have no idea. Mention it in the ATL crew lounge and you should see the responses. Unfortunately, that is how it is. You guys are chomping at the bit for new expansion--even after you have grown huge in the last 2 years. Now you see Chataqua growing--and you are getting nervous. Remember--this is my opinion and I have nothing to do with this.
Fins,
We so not represent you, but our contract, which Leo signed, gives you a "road map" to follow. Leo, who is in charge, signed it. That is reality. As far as the RJDC goes, Dalpa just received a letter from Ford and Cooksey that seemed a little desperate. Think about it, your suit is against ALPA---not Dalpa. We could actually split from ALPA (along with 4 or 5 other majors), leave it as a former shell that would go bankrupt, and create our own union, which still has a contract with Delta. That way, you can sue and really get nothing. Then the union that does represent you would have little funds to protect you, and our new union would get our dues and fight for us, along with the 4 or 5 other majors. Is that what you want?
Sleepy,
I've got one. Non rev seating. Your ASA seniority can bump junior Delta pilots out of first class. Welcome to our family.
Flycomairjets,
Whether you choose to or not believe that you are part of this corporation is up to you. We all receive pay from the same unit.
If your negotiators choose to participate, great. IF they do not, I bet your growth will go to anothe DCI carrier, and that won't be our fault---it will be yours. Our management team probably remembers your strike and will probably award new flying to Chataqua and others---and that isn't Dalpa's fault. Even if we had taken the ridiculous 31% pay cut that management was asking, they probably would still come after you guys because you too make higher than normal wages between you and your peers. That is the truth.
Thanks guys!!
Bye Bye--General Lee
Afellowaviator,
You sir, don't like me, and it shows. I am not trying to be "full of myself." I am trying to give you a point of view---or an opinion---and I am not trying to make anyone mad. Just because you don't like my conclusions or my own opinions---you like to tell me to "go away." That's not going to happen, and you know it. I am not the one handing down your paycut, or anyone's paycut. I really don't know what is going on behind closed doors. I respect your opinion on this opinion board, so why don't you return the favor?
Comrcap,
Word is that there was no "word is." How do we know that happened? A serious rumor that we heard was that the 100 seater order just went to "purchasing." Maybe when we order some 100 seaters you will get a larger 70 seat order. You can't expect us to sit by and watch you grow huge with 1060 of our guys on the street---and the "offer" by Randy is moot now because most of our furloughs would not want to go to Comair for "CRM" reasons. That really really made us mad---you have no idea. Mention it in the ATL crew lounge and you should see the responses. Unfortunately, that is how it is. You guys are chomping at the bit for new expansion--even after you have grown huge in the last 2 years. Now you see Chataqua growing--and you are getting nervous. Remember--this is my opinion and I have nothing to do with this.
Fins,
We so not represent you, but our contract, which Leo signed, gives you a "road map" to follow. Leo, who is in charge, signed it. That is reality. As far as the RJDC goes, Dalpa just received a letter from Ford and Cooksey that seemed a little desperate. Think about it, your suit is against ALPA---not Dalpa. We could actually split from ALPA (along with 4 or 5 other majors), leave it as a former shell that would go bankrupt, and create our own union, which still has a contract with Delta. That way, you can sue and really get nothing. Then the union that does represent you would have little funds to protect you, and our new union would get our dues and fight for us, along with the 4 or 5 other majors. Is that what you want?
Sleepy,
I've got one. Non rev seating. Your ASA seniority can bump junior Delta pilots out of first class. Welcome to our family.
Flycomairjets,
Whether you choose to or not believe that you are part of this corporation is up to you. We all receive pay from the same unit.
If your negotiators choose to participate, great. IF they do not, I bet your growth will go to anothe DCI carrier, and that won't be our fault---it will be yours. Our management team probably remembers your strike and will probably award new flying to Chataqua and others---and that isn't Dalpa's fault. Even if we had taken the ridiculous 31% pay cut that management was asking, they probably would still come after you guys because you too make higher than normal wages between you and your peers. That is the truth.
Thanks guys!!
Bye Bye--General Lee
General Lee
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FlyComAirJets
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My point, which apparently eludes you GeeLee, is that the argument that we are all one company seems to vary with the prevailing attitude of your MEC. One day, we are separate companies like the aforementioned PID or on pass bennies (which you guys sued and lost over). On another, we are the same company when management seeks paycuts.
What I choose to believe is beside the point. Indeed, I have always thought we were one company.
What your MEC thinks, well, which way is the wind blowing today?
What I choose to believe is beside the point. Indeed, I have always thought we were one company.
What your MEC thinks, well, which way is the wind blowing today?
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