Comair Rumors

[comrcap]

Word is Radamacher offered a deal similar to the UAL/Skywest deal for furloughed DALPA pilots in exchange for the CRJ 700. DAL offered it to DALPA and was told to shove it. I guess we're the bad guys! DALPA doesn't care about it's own furloughee's. The talk big, but they (furloughee's) are a bargaining chip like ASA/Comair.

 

[~~~^~~~]

ASACAP,

So, Comair has the highest pay in the regionals. Should they take a major cut also just like we should since we are the highest paid mainline? I am not saying that the cuts should be equal---but everyone who has a stake in this job should make a sacrifice.

Bye Bye--General Lee [/B]

General, who elected the Delta MEC to representa ASA and Comair pilots? Particularly when it comes to pay cuts? This does demonstrate the issue the RJDC is flighting for REPRESENTATION. You Delta Pilots wanted no part of us and your MEC Chairman lied to keep up separate, but now that the Delta pilots think they can offset some of their pay cuts by securing concessions from other groups, we are all on the same team again.

I will not re hash all the old arguements about how ASA and Comair are profitable. Everyone knows it.

What I will add is that there were rumors of the Delta MEC's tactics coming out of the RJDC 8 months ago and then I did not believe it. Dan Ford was right - just so far ahead of his time that it is hard to believe, but history always comes around to show the correctness of his reasoning.

That having been said, if his track record remains on track, ALPA should settle this and lasso that runaway MEC of yours, pronto! Dan Ford for ALPA President! Lord knows we need some leadership at National.

~~~^~~~

 

[sleepy]

General,

I have never felt like I was part of your family. I think that most of my fellow ASA employees feel the same way. Give me one example, anything, that DAL or your MEC has done to make us feel like part of your family?

 

[FlyComAirJets]

Three years ago the Delta MEC strenuously opposed the PID between mainline and ASA/Comar because it was convenient for them to say we were separate companies on any number of minute reasons.

Now in a time of prolonged economic downturn, they say, hey, we are all one company after all and so every employee group should share in the paycuts ... because it is convenient .

Hypocricy has no bounds here.

 

[General Lee]

Man alive! I got responses from all of the regulars. I will try to respond to each:


Afellowaviator,

You sir, don't like me, and it shows. I am not trying to be "full of myself." I am trying to give you a point of view---or an opinion---and I am not trying to make anyone mad. Just because you don't like my conclusions or my own opinions---you like to tell me to "go away." That's not going to happen, and you know it. I am not the one handing down your paycut, or anyone's paycut. I really don't know what is going on behind closed doors. I respect your opinion on this opinion board, so why don't you return the favor?


Comrcap,

Word is that there was no "word is." How do we know that happened? A serious rumor that we heard was that the 100 seater order just went to "purchasing." Maybe when we order some 100 seaters you will get a larger 70 seat order. You can't expect us to sit by and watch you grow huge with 1060 of our guys on the street---and the "offer" by Randy is moot now because most of our furloughs would not want to go to Comair for "CRM" reasons. That really really made us mad---you have no idea. Mention it in the ATL crew lounge and you should see the responses. Unfortunately, that is how it is. You guys are chomping at the bit for new expansion--even after you have grown huge in the last 2 years. Now you see Chataqua growing--and you are getting nervous. Remember--this is my opinion and I have nothing to do with this.

Fins,

We so not represent you, but our contract, which Leo signed, gives you a "road map" to follow. Leo, who is in charge, signed it. That is reality. As far as the RJDC goes, Dalpa just received a letter from Ford and Cooksey that seemed a little desperate. Think about it, your suit is against ALPA---not Dalpa. We could actually split from ALPA (along with 4 or 5 other majors), leave it as a former shell that would go bankrupt, and create our own union, which still has a contract with Delta. That way, you can sue and really get nothing. Then the union that does represent you would have little funds to protect you, and our new union would get our dues and fight for us, along with the 4 or 5 other majors. Is that what you want?


Sleepy,

I've got one. Non rev seating. Your ASA seniority can bump junior Delta pilots out of first class. Welcome to our family.


Flycomairjets,

Whether you choose to or not believe that you are part of this corporation is up to you. We all receive pay from the same unit.
If your negotiators choose to participate, great. IF they do not, I bet your growth will go to anothe DCI carrier, and that won't be our fault---it will be yours. Our management team probably remembers your strike and will probably award new flying to Chataqua and others---and that isn't Dalpa's fault. Even if we had taken the ridiculous 31% pay cut that management was asking, they probably would still come after you guys because you too make higher than normal wages between you and your peers. That is the truth.

Thanks guys!!


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Skull-One]

Man alive! I got responses from all of the regulars. I will try to respond to each:


Afellowaviator,

You sir, don't like me, and it shows. I am not trying to be "full of myself." I am trying to give you a point of view---or an opinion---and I am not trying to make anyone mad. Just because you don't like my conclusions or my own opinions---you like to tell me to "go away." That's not going to happen, and you know it. I am not the one handing down your paycut, or anyone's paycut. I really don't know what is going on behind closed doors. I respect your opinion on this opinion board, so why don't you return the favor?

Come on, General, you should have learned by now that opinions are not welcome by many on this board! I have the hate mail to prove it, too!

 

[Heavy Set]

Don't kill the messenger!!!!!!!!! I wish people would not get so personal on these boards. Sometimes the truth hurts I guess....

 

[General Lee]

Skull-one,

Yeah, I know I am not very popular, and this isn't a popularity contest---these are opinions given on an open forum. Take it or leave it.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[sleepy]

General,

I don't dislike you, hell I don't even know you. I enjoy some of your posts. Yea, the non-rev thing. I knew you would say that. Didn't your pilot group file a grievance to prevent ASA employees from getting DOH non-rev? I don't feel the love.

 

[FlyComAirJets]

My point, which apparently eludes you GeeLee, is that the argument that we are all one company seems to vary with the prevailing attitude of your MEC. One day, we are separate companies like the aforementioned PID or on pass bennies (which you guys sued and lost over). On another, we are the same company when management seeks paycuts.

What I choose to believe is beside the point. Indeed, I have always thought we were one company.

What your MEC thinks, well, which way is the wind blowing today?

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Wake up,
Divide and conquer, we are all acting as managment tools by this silly infighting.
Some one is gonna have to offer the olive branch or this whole mess will slide into Pay-for -Training, food stamps and goverment cheese for all.
General, managment is eyeing your slice of the pie and are working 24/7 to figger a way to bring your paycheck inline with the DCI carriers pilots.
DCI pilots, the infighting we all are engaged in is preventing US from mainline pay, or something closer to it.
You ask how do I know this, Mainline 1060 pilots on the street and how much are they asking for? 31%. General your pie has already shrunk, DCI guys Comair guys especially when did you say your Delta interview was scheduled for? I guess your Delta mainline hire date will be, what the day after never.
WAKE UP
PBR

 

[Bill Mostellar]

Give me one example, anything, that DAL or your MEC has done to make us feel like part of your family?

You have date of hire at Com/ASA priority for pass privileges. Those who left Com/ASA for Delta didn't keep the DOH they previously had.

Welcome to the family.


----- added -----

I posted before reading GL's response.

As to the grievance, I don't know the outcome.

 

[FlyComAirJets]

The outcome of the grievance is, you lost.

Remember the grievance over Comair doing shuttle flying in the spring of 1999? Perhaps you were one of the pilots informational picketing outside the terminals handing out leaflets to passengers.

You lost that one, too.



Proud family member for over a third of a decade.

 

[General Lee]

Sleepy,

I am sorry you don't feel the love. There is not much I alone can do but say that hopefully you, along with other ASA pilots, will get preferrential interviews at Delta and then you know you will get pay increases. That is really how it is. You will get paid more if you go to mainline. I am not one of those cocky pilots that puts down the regional guys---primarily because I was there too. I was not an F-15 guy with an attitude.


Flycomairjets,

I get your point, I do. I don't really see it that way, but then again I am not behind closed doors with him. Buergey is finishing his term soon and then our lead negotiator for the C2K contract will take over. Maybe he will have a different stance---but he is the one who negotiated the scope clause. I know you guys want to grow, and we just want to sustain what we have atleast. I still think that another order of 70 seaters will eventually be on the way---but Delta will be the one who assigns where they go. They might ask you to take some sort of cut to get those new ones--and then you can't blame that on us. Your negotiators will have to get you those jets after Dalpa signs off on them--and that probably will eventually happen. In the mean time Chataqua is growing.....Also, you are right about the Shuttle flying. Recently the Comair RJs have been put on STBY service for overbooking passengers too. But, after some thought about customer wants and needs---they just added STBY lines back to Delta Shuttle pilots. If our planes are full and extra passengers expect a larger 737---they should get it. Those passengers pay the highest fare and expect larger airplanes.


PBR,

Our paychecks will always be larger than DCI's--and I am not bragging. They will not be able to do that(get closer to DCI's) without Chap 11, and they cannot just go into Chap 11 without being sued by every stock holder. Our CFO has said that we are far from it, and everything is slowly getting better. Managment is actually trying to get concessions now before things get a lot better---they are running out of time. We know that we have a debt problem looming, and we will address that with some sort of temporary pay cuts shortly. And, I know our pie has gotten smaller---the percentages have gone up in DCI's favor lately--and that is why we are trying to atleast sustain what we have. We have to keep a certain amount of higher paying jobs, or those jobs will be lost forever. As those percentages rise, so do the lower paying jobs. I want everyone to get higher paying jobs---but that is getting harder and harder all of the time.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[sidseal]

If you are at ASA you will probably have a chance to go higher---and there will ABSOLUTELY be a good chance for you guys to interview at the big D when they start at it again.

Yep, I forget ASA guys are the only ones that will be able to move higher because Delta is and will be the only game in town. Jeez...I better just quit now since I stand no chance of going anywhere. I guess all the airlines will never hire again. Ya know Gen, Delta has never even been on my list. Please, please, for the sake of everyone's mental health, please get off this "Comair will never go to Delta" crap. Okay, so we are not welcome at Delta. Hmmm, what were you saying about being part of the family?

 

[rjcap]

You have date of hire at Com/ASA priority for pass privileges. Those who left Com/ASA for Delta didn't keep the DOH they previously had.

Big Fckn Deal.

 

[sidseal]

Also, if we do take concessions, I have a favor to ask you Delta guys. Since we are one "big family" I was wondering if "Uncle Gen" and the rest of my "Delta Family" could pool their money and send me a 100 bucks a month so that I could at least feed my kid? I mean we are family, right?

 

[General Lee]

Sidseal,

Talk about family. Atleast you can feed your kid---what about the 1060 pilots out on the street? Forgot about them, huh? A lot of you do. This sure is a great job market for them, and then Comair hires 50 a month and won't give the same courtesy that ASA does about seniority resignation. You expect us to be joyful and hire you guys when things get better? Whatever. I don't know what the hiring practices will be in the future, but people will give their opinions before hand to the retired interviewers, and it will be up to them. And, quit blaming us for future paycuts---your negotiators would be responsible---not us. We can't tell you what to give up---your negotiators will do that. And, you are right--there are other airlines you can interview at----good luck.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

As far as the RJDC goes, Dalpa just received a letter from Ford and Cooksey that seemed a little desperate. Think about it, your suit is against ALPA---not Dalpa. We could actually split from ALPA (along with 4 or 5 other majors), leave it as a former shell that would go bankrupt, and create our own union, which still has a contract with Delta. Is that what you want?Thanks guys!!


Bye Bye--General Lee

General : Either way, we eventually win. If you leave, we then would have no one to block us from negotiations with our employer, Delta. Perhaps we could start fixing what your MEC let out of the bag with codeshare. If you leave, you lose control over our bargaining agent, that is a win for us.

And the letter, which I've seen, was addressed to ALPA's Executive Counsel. I did not realize the ALPA Executive Counsel and Delta MEC were the same thing, but you have a point, it is darned impossible to tell much difference between the two entities.

The RJDC has always preferred a voluntary settlement of our grievances rather than litigation. You might recall that pilots like me are funding this litigation out of our meager paychecks. Despite the fact there are enough of us to raise hundreds of thousands of dollars, it is still a burden to fight our own union. Do not misinterpret another plea to act reasonably with desperation. The RJDC's position is much stronger after ALPA's ill timed motion to dismiss.

We never wanted this fight, but we will fight as long as we are forced to.

P.S. Who would be the 4 or 5 other majors? Southwest? Airtran, JetBlue? You certainly don't mean United and US Air do you? The Delta MEC, United and US Air would not be much of a union. Remember the folks who leave, leave the all the MCF funds in offshore accounts and if you look back at ALPA's history, the Delta MEC has cost tens of millions in legal settlements alone. That was why I was so excited about Miller v. ALPA because it would have forced ALPA to open the books and I was going to post the total cost of the Delta MEC's malfeasance on the net. Unfortunately ALPA settled that suit against the union (by Delta pilots against actions by the Delta MEC) for nearly a million dollars rather than open the books - makes you wonder what is in those books that it is worth a million to keep them under wraps!

P.S.S. I'm still hoping ALPA can be fixed. If your MEC is not happy with the way they have run ALPA - I don't see how leaving will solve their problems - you will still have the same leadership. But, if you want to leave us in control of ALPA and leave a little of your money behind too, we would be fools not to eagerly say - ADIOS suckers. It doesn't matter - mi casa is still your casa.

 

[Anaconda]

everyone needs to share in the resonsibility---not just one group. If you have to take some cuts, I doubt they would be even close to ours---and that is fine. But, everyone should have to sacrifice---not just us----that's called a "family."

I love you all.

ROFLMAO!!!!!

 

[General Lee]

Fins,

How would you win again if we left ALPA and created our own union? Our contract would still be valid (since LEO signed it)---and the scope would still be in place, with you looking for more people to blame. ALPA would be bankrupt, leaving you with no real representation(like you had any before....)---and making you either form your own regional union, or going to the Teamsters. Either way, what is signed by Leo goes---and scope will always be there---otherwise we wouldn't have a mainline. This is all fluff anyways---since our guys don't seem that worried. And, the other "majors" would be NW, CO, and maybe UAL and USAir--since they would still be giving dues..... I have to admit though, I am not familiar with a lot of the things you say about ALPA and the funds overseas etc....You do sound like you know what you are talking about. We just disagree over what will happen---which is normal. We shall see my friend.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[comrcap]

I love the way everybody who ever left Comair or any other regional for a mainline forgets their ROOTS. They tossed the dice to chase the "heavy Iron" and "pension". They bought high and now that the market fell out from under them they cry, "I'm furloughed and nobody cares!" I f*@*'ed up and it's all Comairs fault! I DESERVE to have a job. Has anybody been paying attention to the "trend" in the industry?!! Every other industry is outsourcing their high paying work force. What makes DALPA so special? Or UAL, AMR....Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to have the pay and work rules of the Mainline. But, those are contracts developed over YEARS in a regulated invironment. Unless you haven't noticed General Redneck, deregulation is over 20 years old and the low cost carriers are well entrenched and kicking A**. Either you evolve or die. Let's see...UsAir, UAL almost AMR, DAL hanging on by a thread...Time is working against the Mainline carriers.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Fins,

How would you win again if we left ALPA and created our own union?

Our fight is for representation, issues like scope are the effect, not the cause of our problem. If DALPA left ALPA it is likely the barriers to effective representation of our interests would be removed because ALPA would no longer be held captive to the wishes of the Delta MEC. If you took NW with you, all the better. Then the inner ALPA political establishment wishing for the destruction of ASA and Comair would be gone.

Our contract would still be valid (since LEO signed it)---and the scope would still be in place, with you looking for more people to blame.

Would it? Re-read the "Recognition and Scope" section of your contract. Delta has a contract with ALPA, who represents the Delta pilots. Absent ALPA, there is no agreement. But who cares - Delta wants to renegotiate your entire contract anyway, right? With effective representation, the ASA and Comair pilots would participate in contract 2005 and the outcome would be shaped by all the interests represented at the table.

ALPA would be bankrupt, leaving you with no real representation....I have to admit though, I am not familiar with a lot of the things you say about ALPA and the funds overseas etc....

If a group leaves ALPA, they leave whatever funds they have paid. So the war chest remains. But it brings up an interesting point.
If we look at ALPA's financial history, the union has only been close to bankruptcy once in modern times - this was the litigation over how ALPA handled the Pan Am merger, which both your MEC and Mike Haber (RJDC's Counsel) were directly involved in. My understanding is that ALPA actually sold their building in Herndon, VA to pay their voluntary settlement of the claims brought by Haber. After Haber's good claims were settled, ALPA fought and eventually won the remaining claims that were brought by different attorneys. The settlement was confidential and that confidentiality has been honored by both sides, but we do know it was in the 8 figure range. A lot of money back then.
You add to that settlement the cases like Miller v. ALPA and other messes the Delta MEC has got ALPA into and the number may be as high as 50 to 100 milllion in off the books legal settlements for everything from representational issues to hanky panky in the DAL MEC apartments. We don't know where the money goes because it is not on your MEC's budget - legal settlements and costs are MCF's. So - do we know that the Delta MEC carries its own weight? We know that DALPA does nothing on the cheap and the after a strike, the next most expensive activity ALPA engages in is mainline contract negotiations.
After the Pan Am suit that involved the DAL MEC, ALPA has worked to insulate its war chest from legal judgements by moving the money into off shore investment and insurance arrangements.

Flying the Line III will be interesting, because aside from the "Ra Ra - we got Continental back" the real action has pretty much all involved the Delta MEC. Your group of crazies has done stuff nobody has dared to try before, assembled the best contract in the entire history of the piloting profession and acquired two airlines without merging them. Illegal as heck in many ways, but willing to boldly break the law, pay the price and keep going like a military machine.

Of course all of this Delta leaving ALPA stuff is conjecture. Delta is not leaving ALPA, it would be a foolish move and collectively, your pilots are a pretty smart group. You are not going to hand us the keys. But seriously, if you have the choice of obeying the law, or leaving, you would vote to leave? If so, that explains ALPA's core problem - ALPA is run by pilots who have no allegiance to ALPA.

~~~^~~~

 

[AceCrackshot]

And one other thing...the 1060 furloughees exist primarily because DALPA didn't prevent the ghettoization of jet flying in the early 90's by the regionals, and their willingness to feed up other airlines in the deregulation environment in 1978 to support their (and in fairness UA's and AA's) tactical interest.

So General, I don't have a lot of sympathy for the furloughees. It sucks to lose your job through no fault of your own...happened to me twice. But, they were sold out by their own Delta brothers a long time ago.

 

[rjcap]

And one other thing...the 1060 furloughees exist primarily because DALPA didn't prevent the ghettoization of jet flying in the early 90's by the regionals, and their willingness to feed up other airlines in the deregulation environment in 1978 to support their (and in fairness UA's and AA's) tactical interest.

Excellent point.

If anybody can get their hands on the recent American Airlines APA newsmagazine. Inside the front cover is a letter from the APA president to the members. The president of the APA extends his heart felt condolences to the furloughees and then goes on a 2 paragraph tirade on how the state of the industry and American is the fault of everyone and anything else except of course the APA union.

RJ's, Who could have thought they would become such a force?

RJ's, We didn't want that type of flying anyway.

RJ's, We didn't want to work for those kind of wages ( until now )

And of course the all encompassing focal point of everyone's misery,

9-11, It all started here.

and then of course more of the same blah, blah, blah its not my fault but I will still collect my paycheck as your APA union President.


I guarantee you this is worth the effort to get your hands on and read.

 

[AceCrackshot]

At my employer, we are doing what once was DC9/MD80 flying, for pennies on the dollar. Short of cabotage, we (the regionals) are the third world labor force that management loves. ALPA spent its time and resources courting CO and FedEX, and thought scope to protect everyone's job was the answer. ALPA has protected no one, and as long as management could throw the MEC some bone, they signed off on the whole thing. The U MEC sold the WO's down the river for the equivelent of extra peach cobbler in their crew meals, and then when 1/4 of the mainline pilots went for a walk, conspired to thieve the seniority of the regional pilots. AA bought the airplanes from TW, and then decided to staple the pilots, thus finalizing the killing of once was another longtime union rule (following flying.) I'm sure that the APA king is crying buckets of alligator tears of thought of all the furloughed pilots. After all, God made him an AA Captain, so that rest of us would have someone to look up to.

Theft is a crime. Theft from the poor is utterly dishonorable.

[Warning: reverse thread hijack from RDJC/DAL/CMR in progress]

 

[FDJ2]

Re-read the "Recognition and Scope" section of your contract. Delta has a contract with ALPA, who represents the Delta pilots. Absent ALPA, there is no agreement.

The Delta PWA is a agreement between Delta Air Lines, Inc. and the Air Line Pilots in the Service of Delta Air Lines, Inc., not ALPA.

 

[N2264J]

Remember the grievance over Comair doing shuttle flying in the spring of 1999? Perhaps you were one of the pilots informational picketing outside the terminals handing out leaflets to passengers.

Actually, ALPA, at the behest of the DMEC, sued Delta Air Lines over their family members at Comair flying the Delta Shuttle. Something about "traditional Delta flying" and "the quality of the product."

Judge Glasser declared it a minor dispute and threw it out of court.

 

[~~~^~~~]

The Delta PWA is a agreement between Delta Air Lines, Inc. and the Air Line Pilots in the Service of Delta Air Lines, Inc., not ALPA.

Keep reading, a little further down the page.

 

[FDJ2]

Keep reading, a little further down the page.

I did, and it never says that this agreement is between DAL and ALPA as you insinuate. ALPA is only a bargaining agent. Once again, the agreement is between DAL and DAL pilots, not ALPA.