Comair pilot question.

[AV8OR]

Alright, here's the deal. Today I try and JS from CVG to BHM CMR 5341. Plane is full. 50 , it's pax. We are CASS. Get to the plane and it's loaded pushing in approx 12 min. Cpt looks at creds. Do they have a seat for you in the back? No, they have me up here if it's OK with you. OK. Nop prob. Brief on the seat. There's the headset, yada yada yada, Welcome aboard. Right at push, he says, "I need to go to the restroom." Goes to the back. Comes back up and says, ya know, we might not have enough O2 for you to ride up front, I'm gonna need to check the manual. Looks back and says, "MM sorry, we just don't quite have it. Is there another flight soon to BHM?" Not one that'll get me there in time for the plans with the family, thanks. "Hang on a sec. let me check something.......mmmm, no sorry, can't do it." Thanks again. Merry Christmas! Deplane.

So here's my question......When yall preflight, do yall not look for an O2 min psi or volume that will allow a full boat and a JSer? I mean I have been JSing a long time and never had that happen. Not enough O2. Now, I will tell ya, that he seemed, IMO, to be not to thrilled to have a FFDO transporting in the cockpit. And of course, it's a no no to deny an FFDO based on that, but it just seemed all very odd. I would have figured that he would have known before I stepped aboard that they were tight on O2 . I mean I'm guessing if I'd been FAA, or Checkairman, or whatever, they'd have had to deny me boarding as well. Anyway, before I talk to our JS chairman on the issue, wanted yall's take....

Incedentally, I JS on yall all the time, and always appreciate and enjoy the ride.

Thanks.....

 

[CheapFlyer]

Flight 5341 doesn't go from cvg to bhm.

-CF

 

[wmuflyguy]

Alright, here's the deal. Today I try and JS from CVG to BHM CMR 5341. Plane is full. 50 , it's pax. We are CASS. Get to the plane and it's loaded pushing in approx 12 min. Cpt looks at creds. Do they have a seat for you in the back? No, they have me up here if it's OK with you. OK. Nop prob. Brief on the seat. There's the headset, yada yada yada, Welcome aboard. Right at push, he says, "I need to go to the restroom." Goes to the back. Comes back up and says, ya know, we might not have enough O2 for you to ride up front, I'm gonna need to check the manual. Looks back and says, "MM sorry, we just don't quite have it. Is there another flight soon to BHM?" Not one that'll get me there in time for the plans with the family, thanks. "Hang on a sec. let me check something.......mmmm, no sorry, can't do it." Thanks again. Merry Christmas! Deplane.

So here's my question......When yall preflight, do yall not look for an O2 min psi or volume that will allow a full boat and a JSer? I mean I have been JSing a long time and never had that happen. Not enough O2. Now, I will tell ya, that he seemed, IMO, to be not to thrilled to have a FFDO transporting in the cockpit. And of course, it's a no no to deny an FFDO based on that, but it just seemed all very odd. I would have figured that he would have known before I stepped aboard that they were tight on O2 . I mean I'm guessing if I'd been FAA, or Checkairman, or whatever, they'd have had to deny me boarding as well. Anyway, before I talk to our JS chairman on the issue, wanted yall's take....

Incedentally, I JS on yall all the time, and always appreciate and enjoy the ride.

Thanks.....

There is a min PSI value for 2 Crew and a min PSI for 2 Crew + an Observer/Jumpseater.

Your supposed to check it before each leg, because testing of the 02 mask before each leg is required and depletes the bottle.

If the 02 is below the 2 crew+Observer, the jumpseat is defered(noone cane ride in it, even the FAA) and not available for use, until the 02 is serviced.

As to when he caught it, depends when he does the checklist. It may have just dawned on him that it was close and he needed to check. Anyway, sounds like the Captain did the right thing. He checked, it wasn't within limits, and therefore couldn't take you.

 

[SXMp2c]

Alright, here's the deal. Today I try and JS from CVG to BHM CMR 5341. Plane is full. 50 , it's pax. We are CASS. Get to the plane and it's loaded pushing in approx 12 min. Cpt looks at creds. Do they have a seat for you in the back? No, they have me up here if it's OK with you. OK. Nop prob. Brief on the seat. There's the headset, yada yada yada, Welcome aboard. Right at push, he says, "I need to go to the restroom." Goes to the back. Comes back up and says, ya know, we might not have enough O2 for you to ride up front, I'm gonna need to check the manual. Looks back and says, "MM sorry, we just don't quite have it. Is there another flight soon to BHM?" Not one that'll get me there in time for the plans with the family, thanks. "Hang on a sec. let me check something.......mmmm, no sorry, can't do it." Thanks again. Merry Christmas! Deplane.

So here's my question......When yall preflight, do yall not look for an O2 min psi or volume that will allow a full boat and a JSer? I mean I have been JSing a long time and never had that happen. Not enough O2. Now, I will tell ya, that he seemed, IMO, to be not to thrilled to have a FFDO transporting in the cockpit. And of course, it's a no no to deny an FFDO based on that, but it just seemed all very odd. I would have figured that he would have known before I stepped aboard that they were tight on O2 . I mean I'm guessing if I'd been FAA, or Checkairman, or whatever, they'd have had to deny me boarding as well. Anyway, before I talk to our JS chairman on the issue, wanted yall's take....

Incedentally, I JS on yall all the time, and always appreciate and enjoy the ride.

Thanks.....

Call TSOC. They will figure out if the o2 was actually low or if this CA needs a little DHS refresher.

 

[The Drizzle]

sh!t happens when you J/S, can't expect it to work every time.

 

[AV8OR]

Flight 5341 doesn't go from cvg to bhm.

-CF

Yeah you're right it was 5314. Sorry for the confusion. I'v gotten some info on it and will just contact our JS coordinator to check it out.

Thanks....

 

[AV8OR]

sh!t happens when you J/S, can't expect it to work every time.

Really? Soooo, yer sayin' I cannot expect it to work out every time? Mmm. Well there ya go. Thanks for the tip.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

I don't always think of that either. Maybe he was on the John, and had a vision. You know, the one where there isn't enough O2 for a 3rd crewmember in the cockpit? Now, the CRJ-200 has this little tiny O2 bottle, and after a few tests of the masks, you find yourself without enough air. So, bye bye, and so long. It was nice knowin ya. And have a Merry Christmas.

And by the way, if I say you can't ride, there's nothing your coordinator can do about it. Gun or not.

 

[CoolSidePillow]

I know what the problem was.... the Captain went to restroom to keep from biting through his bottom lip at all the Y'alls going on. Then came back and politely had you deplane.

 

[AV8OR]

I don't always think of that either. Maybe he was on the John, and had a vision. You know, the one where there isn't enough O2 for a 3rd crewmember in the cockpit? Now, the CRJ-200 has this little tiny O2 bottle, and after a few tests of the masks, you find yourself without enough air. So, bye bye, and so long. It was nice knowin ya. And have a Merry Christmas.

And by the way, if I say you can't ride, there's nothing your coordinator can do about it. Gun or not.

Hey Oakum. First, I'm pretty familiar with Cpts. authority. Never said he didn't have a right to it. Support it fully.

Just thought I see if yall preflight your O2 for three crew members more than 5 mins past time to push or do ya check it during the postflight, or do you even care whther or not you have a JSer on board, (I'm guessin I know where you stand on that one.) ...that's all.

As for the JS coordinator, I'm well aware of his inability to do anything about it, but he's my contact. But if you tell an FFDO he can't ride cause he's an FFDO, transporting...eh, nevermind, heck just give it try sometime. Make sure you say it just like you did at the end of your post too.

I questioned whether or not to open myself up to some of this kind of tiny dik crap, but hey, I rolled the dice. To those who were helpful, thanks.

I'll leave the regional board back to my JS-less self.

CoolsideP.......Merry Christmas yooooose gise!

See yooose at the PS Fifty Foah Class a' 97 reunion.

 

[The Drizzle]

Really? Soooo, yer sayin' I cannot expect it to work out every time? Mmm. Well there ya go. Thanks for the tip.

you don't like it, don't come posting in here like a b!tch

 

[Captn]

Sounds like you were a victim of Captain D...Head

 

[172driver]

I'm sorry to hear that happened to you. Yes, the CA should have checked the O2 quantity before boarding, but I'm not surprised it was missed. As you know, cockpit jumpseaters are rare, and often we're fine for two, but a little short for three crew. We test our masks before each leg, which wastes the O2 unnecessarily, and contributes to this scenario. The PSI requirement varies according to temperature, so it's not a constant number and must be looked up. If you're not expecting or thinking about a j/s, it's easy to miss.

I'm sure he would have had mx come out, but the O2 can't be serviced with pax on board. I am a little surprised he didn't look at the O2 immediately when you showed up, but you know how it goes sometimes when you're getting ready for departure. I'm sure it was an innocent mistake. Sorry again, and hope we can help you out next time.

 

[SSDD]

I've been trying not to post because I wasn't there. But I think you guys are just making up excuses for this guy. If he didn't want JS he should have just said so. The low O2 warning in the RJ goes off at 1410 PSI, pretty hard to miss the amber message. And you sure as $hit wouldn't see it from the lav. Anything above 1410 is enough O2 for three people to go from CVG to BHM.

I'll call BS on this one. He was probably stalling for time until he could come up with something. Again, not questioning his captain authority, but he should have denied it up front and not make up some story.

 

[viper548]

I've been on the CRJ for 2 years and have never heard of this happening before. I agree with SSDD, it sounds like some BS reason to not take you. What airline do you work for?

 

[viper548]

On the -200 there have been maybe 3-4 times we weren't able to take a jumpseater and it was either due to weight restriction or the CG too far fwd. We can usually make it happen though. On the -700 I've only left one jumpseater behind and that's because he was GOO-jets and the capt was former TSA

 

[JetPilot_Mike]

I've been trying not to post because I wasn't there. But I think you guys are just making up excuses for this guy. If he didn't want JS he should have just said so. The low O2 warning in the RJ goes off at 1410 PSI, pretty hard to miss the amber message. And you sure as $hit wouldn't see it from the lav. Anything above 1410 is enough O2 for three people to go from CVG to BHM.

I'll call BS on this one. He was probably stalling for time until he could come up with something. Again, not questioning his captain authority, but he should have denied it up front and not make up some story.

I see you have flown the CL65. but maybe it was a long time ago. While you are correct that at 1410PSI you get the amber CREW OXY message, it is certainly not enough for 2+1. I will post this the best I can, since I cannot copy from our Flight Standards Manual. THis table is the last page of the Limitations section

At 0 degrees you need 1084PSI for 2, but 1505PSI for 2+1
At 10 degrees 1133PSI, and 1579PSI
At 20 degrees 1182, and 1654.

In fact, you can fly with the 1410 Amber caution at all times with just the crew, but the requirement goes way up when you add a JS'er. I glance at the PSI when I first get into the airplane, and if it seems low I will have is serviced if time permits. But it would be easy to forget after 3 or 4 legs.

Most people would not tell you it's ok to ride, and then kick you off right before pushback. It prolly just dawned on him while he was in the head. Really, it's no big deal, and for you to go running to your JS guy over this is being a little bit like a crybaby. It happens from time to time. Your lucky you even had a shot, because on a short flight like that the CG was prolly way far forward.

 

[SSDD]

Well, I stand corrected then.

 

[imacdog]

I've been on a leg where we had to have the jumpseater deplane because we didn't hav enough O2 for a third crewmember (and couldn't get it serviced in a reasonable time). We were ready for a flight with two crew members and don't always know about a jumpseater needing the cockpit jumpseat sometimes until he's already onboard. So feel free to take this issue to your jumpseat committee but it was most likely a legitimate reason for not taking you.

 

[standaman]

Alright, here's the deal. Today I try and JS from CVG to BHM CMR 5341. Plane is full. 50 , it's pax. We are CASS. Get to the plane and it's loaded pushing in approx 12 min. Cpt looks at creds. Do they have a seat for you in the back? No, they have me up here if it's OK with you. OK. Nop prob. Brief on the seat. There's the headset, yada yada yada, Welcome aboard. Right at push, he says, "I need to go to the restroom." Goes to the back. Comes back up and says, ya know, we might not have enough O2 for you to ride up front, I'm gonna need to check the manual. Looks back and says, "MM sorry, we just don't quite have it. Is there another flight soon to BHM?" Not one that'll get me there in time for the plans with the family, thanks. "Hang on a sec. let me check something.......mmmm, no sorry, can't do it." Thanks again. Merry Christmas! Deplane.

So here's my question......When yall preflight, do yall not look for an O2 min psi or volume that will allow a full boat and a JSer? I mean I have been JSing a long time and never had that happen. Not enough O2. Now, I will tell ya, that he seemed, IMO, to be not to thrilled to have a FFDO transporting in the cockpit. And of course, it's a no no to deny an FFDO based on that, but it just seemed all very odd. I would have figured that he would have known before I stepped aboard that they were tight on O2 . I mean I'm guessing if I'd been FAA, or Checkairman, or whatever, they'd have had to deny me boarding as well. Anyway, before I talk to our JS chairman on the issue, wanted yall's take....

Incedentally, I JS on yall all the time, and always appreciate and enjoy the ride.

Thanks.....

AV8OR,

I am really sorry to hear this. However something caught my eye in this. I have an alternate theory. You mentioned you are an FFDO. I am not certain but I am assuming you had your weapon with you. Referencing my Ops manual it states that only Delta and Delta Connection Inc carrier FFDO's can ride in the jumpseat while thier weapon is present. By looking at your airplanes flown I don't think you qualify. This may have been the reason or it may not have. If I am reading this wrong please somebody tell me. Comair folks reference Ops Manual 10-22 FFDO's in jumpseat.

 

[172driver]

I am really sorry to hear this. However something caught my eye in this. I have an alternate theory. You mentioned you are an FFDO. I am not certain but I am assuming you had your weapon with you. Referencing my Ops manual it states that only Delta and Delta Connection Inc carrier FFDO's can ride in the jumpseat while thier weapon is present. By looking at your airplanes flown I don't think you qualify. This may have been the reason or it may not have. If I am reading this wrong please somebody tell me. Comair folks reference Ops Manual 10-22 FFDO's in jumpseat.

Actually, it doesn't say "only" a Delta/DCI FFDO may occupy the j/s. It says a DAL/DCI FFDO may, not that others may not, although the intent of the language is very unclear. If you look at the chart of eligible j/s riders on Ops Manual 10-31, it says that OAL j/s riders, including FFDO's, may ride if they have been CASS verified. Someone needs to bring this up and have it clarified.