Comair Pilot arrested in PA

[Medeco]

I was just watching the local Atlanta news this evening and saw a report that a Comair Capt. was arrested for having a knife in his bag. The report said that he first denied having it and then later admitted to knowing , but forgot it was there.

This is just rediculous, the TSA seems to not use a bit of logic when dealing with pilots. Am I wrong in thinking that if you verify the SIDA badge with the person in front of you, along with company ID, and maybe an outstation manager with the company, that an incident like this should be forgotten immediatly?

It's the old logic that if a Captain of an Airliner wants to harm people it is very easy to without the help of anything other than the plane itself, fire axe, Halon,etc..

They should have higher standers when hiring these idiots.

Yes, rules are rules and laws are laws, but **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**!

 

[SpiderMan]

How about this one. I read it someplace the other day. Some middle-aged woman was going through a security checkpoint with a present for her son or grandchild, not important. Anyway, it was a 12 inch G.I. Joe doll with a small two to three inch plastic machine-gun. The brilliant TSAgent confiscated the dolls plastic gun because federal regulations dont allow replica guns onboard aircraft. These TSA folks are sharp!

 

[flyhard]

I would like to make a short explanation for the two above incidents from where I see it. After I was furloughed I worked as an instructor for the federal airport screeners. So I have seen it from a pilots perspective as well as a screener perspective.

The first incident is no different than if a policeman asked if you had a weapon in your car. You say no and the cop searches your car and finds one. That is called concealment and believe it or not being a "captain" will not get you out of it. Remember the rules do not change if you are a pilot.

As far as the standards (I think that is what you tried to spell) during my training I knew of four people that were furloughed airline pilots from major carriers that failed the test. So the standards are there.

Now the second incident. It use to be that all toy guns were prohibited, now GI Joe types are permitted. That screener just did not read his or her revisions, no excuses. Kind of sounded like a pilot?

The main thing to keep in mind is that TSA is a brand new organization and will take some time to iron out all the bugs. Like I said before I have seen it from both sides and used to be like everyone else. " This is bull$hit, this guy has a power trip," ect. were the words that came out of my mouth. We need to realize that these people are defending our jobs as airline pilots and we need to thank them more often.

 

[Timebuilder]

That is called concealment and believe it or not being a "captain" will not get you out of it. Remember the rules do not change if you are a pilot.

I think that is the point that is being made. To have the same rules for pilots is....uh....what's the word......oh, STUPID. That's the word.

four people that were furloughed airline pilots from major carriers that failed the test.

Is it possible that the test requires you to take leave of common sense?

That screener just did not read his or her revisions, no excuses. Kind of sounded like a pilot?

Perhaps. However, a pilot might face some sort of consequences. What is the TSA going to do about ruining this child's toy?

Nothing, that's what.

We need to realize that these people are defending our jobs as airline pilots and we need to thank them more often.

Defending the jobs of airline pilots?

Sir, forgive me if I seem angry at that statement. I think we need to be smarter than those we are defending against, and the current procedures and policies don't bear that out.

As the public becomes less tolerant of this kind on nonsense, there will be fewer jobs at the main terminal, for both pilots and screeners.

But I'll give you a chance to explain something to me, and I am as serious as a heart attack: why is it necessary to prevent a pilot of a transport category aircraft, carrying dozens of passengers and thousands of pounds of jet fuel, from having a nail clipper in his pocket that has a small nail file?

I'll wait.

 

[flyhard]

First of all it would have been easier to quote my entire response. Maybe you need to step into reality and realize that people do not give a $hit that you are a pilot, so the rules are not going to change. If they did then where would the line be drawn?

As far as common sense, I guess the other 21 pilots that passed the test in the class had no common sense. Whatever.

As far as the child's toy, that is an isolated incident that doesn't happen everyday.

As far as you saying "the public being tolerant" . I guarantee that the general public is satisfied with the job that is being done.

The file and nail clippers have been allowed for the last 8 months, so I do not know where you have been?

 

[Timebuilder]

For the sake of clarity, let's take this a step at a time. I hope you don't mind. This is necessary. (Doesn't it sound annoying when you are told something like that, and you know it is not true?)

realize that people do not give a $hit that you are a pilot, so the rules are not going to change. If they did then where would the line be drawn?

As many have pointed out, it makes no sense to treat the guy at the controls of the aircraft with the same suspicion as a passenger. I haven't yet met the TSA official who can come up with a logical explanation as to why this ridgid "everyone is a potential terrorist" approach is in use. Isn't what we have seen on September 11th all the proof you need that the pilot always has the ultimate weapon at his command? Please, show me how your policy makes sense. I am more than willing to listen. I want to know why the commander of the aircraft gets the same search as the twenty four year old kid named Mohammed with the one way ticket.

As far as common sense, I guess the other 21 pilots that passed the test in the class had no common sense. Whatever.

I don't think so. I think they simply were able to "suspend reality", as we used to say in film school. This doesn't mean that they had no common sense, it only means that they were able to ignore it.

As far as the child's toy, that is an isolated incident that doesn't happen everyday.

I'll bet that both the passenger and child are not content to know that something like that doesn't happen every day. An apology? I'll bet it isn't permitted by the rules.

I guarantee that the general public is satisfied with the job that is being done.

Not the folks I talk with.

The file and nail clippers have been allowed for the last 8 months, so I do not know where you have been?

Apparently, none of the screeners at Philadephia or Fort Lauderdale know this. I sometimes must fly commercial, and have done this several times since April. That would be about eight months, wouldn't it? It's usually an AirTran flight, in order to pick up or drop off an airplane at Boca. After my search, I thought the screener might ask me to go steady. She hasn't called.

Now, it would be very wrong of me to blame you personally for my position on this particular issue. What I can blame you for is making a futile attempt to defend what I see as indefensible, other than an explanation like "we are just blundering through this, trying to please everyone, in a no-win situation".

I'd understand that.

 

[Pilot877]

Well done, Timebuilder, well done..........

 

[Michael Knight]

I agree with Timebuilder

We all realize that the pilots are in the cockpit, at the controls. There IS a difference between passengers and crew... especially the pilots with access to the cockpit. Hopefully this will be addressed soon. Imagine treating Federal Air Marshalls like this: take away the contraband items on their person and then giving them their gun back. Wait... maybe this is done?!?

Those that don't think there should be a difference between crew, FAM's/LEO's, and the flying public simply don't get it.

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

Maybe it was Surplus1 and he had the knife in case someone in his jumpseat started an arguement about scope and the RJDC, b/c you know he takes that stuff very serious.

 

[DoinTime]

As many have pointed out, it makes no sense to treat the guy at the controls of the aircraft with the same suspicion as a passenger. I haven't yet met the TSA official who can come up with a logical explanation as to why this ridgid "everyone is a potential terrorist" approach is in use. Isn't what we have seen on September 11th all the proof you need that the pilot always has the ultimate weapon at his command? Please, show me how your policy makes sense. I am more than willing to listen. I want to know why the commander of the aircraft gets the same search as the twenty four year old kid named Mohammed with the one way ticket.

Everyone has to realize that just because someone presents themselves at the security gate in their uniform with ID's it doesn't neccesarily mean that you are going to be flying that day or even that you know how to fly at all. Pilot uniforms are available to the public market and a good crook can easily replicate a company ID. Unless the TSA agent escorts you down to the plane, watches you preflight, pushback, and taxi out there is now way for them to know who you are or what you do.

 

[Timebuilder]

Well, at that point, we have to stop all flights, period. According to what you are saying, we don't know who the real pilots are.

How in the world can we then let anyone into a cockpit?

 

[toneal]

I am still training for a career in aviation and I hope they do get the bugs ironed out by the time I get hired. Probably not because we all know how slow the government wheel creaks..

 

[DoinTime]

Your absolutely right.

Is it feasible to ground all the aircraft in the US indefinitely? No
Is it feasible to check everyone at the security gate to possibly eliminate a threat before it develops? Yes

There is such a thing as acceptable risk and the process of crews identifying each other from past experience, gate agents verifying identity at the gate against the dispatch release, and jumpseater employment verification virtually eliminate this risk by the time the flight departs. Unfortunately none of these methods are available to the TSA agent.

 

[Timebuilder]

So after the phony pilot is checked for contraband at the gate by the TSA agent, he can then board the plane, right?

Do you see what I am getting at?

If a pilot can be correctly identified to the point of being the genuine article who is supposed to fly the airplane, then why can't a pilot be identified as the genuine article at the gate?

Seems just a little nonsensical to me.

 

[DoinTime]

Timebuilder.....
I'm starting to wonder when the last time you were in an airport was. Nobody just lets you jump on board anymore. For passengers there are a series of ID and property checks from the ticket counter, security checkpoint, gate agent, and possibly a TSA agent if you are a selectee. For crewmembers you are going to be screened by the security checkpoint, your crewmembers, and the gate agent will check all ID's against the names on the release. No one of these checks is infallable but together they offer that 'acceptable' level of risk I spoke of earlier. It would be nice if we all had a magic card in our pocket that positively identified us at the front door and we wouldn't need any further inspection but that card doesn't exist. Maybe someday it will but until then the only feasable way front line security can deal with us is as normal people. Be nice and smile. You may find that many of the agents are kind hard-working people once they realize that you don't hate them.

 

[Timebuilder]

As I pointed out to someone this evening, I have been through the security mill several times in the past eight months.

I don't hate the people for doing their job. What I do hate is the misdirected attention and outright stupidity I read about every week: a medal of honor winner hassled for carrying his medal, a senator hassled because of a steel hip, or the reports of several 55 gallon drums of small nail files being accumulated at airports all over the country.

Unfortunately, a great deal of this is foolishness. Consider this: the 9-11 hijackers didn't take anything past security. Their weapons were placed on board by co-conspirators. In fact, If someone was not on a special list, they could board aircraft at the same gate as the hijackers had, and with the same weapons placed in a similar manner, and might cause the same problems that we have seen. The passengers would probably overpower the hijackers this time, but the question remains: what good is being done by our new security requirements, if the same requirements would not have prevented the hijackings to which we are reacting?

 

[ClassG]

Just as an aside....

What sort of identification do the Sky Marshalls have that it cannot be duplicated by these same "crooks" we're so afraid of? If someone could produce valid-looking credentials as a pilot, couldn't the same be done (in regular street clothes, and with a side arm) ???

Maybe there's some secret squirrel handshake you need to do in order to get through security. Anyone know??

 

[Loafman]

Maybe we could sell the nail files on eB

Want my take on the whole situation? I knew you would. Here it is.

To hell with screening people entering the airport for weapons. I really don't give a $hit if the overhead bins are full of M-16's if there are normal people in the seats who aren't terrorist wackos.

Where we NEED to screen is the PEOPLE getting on the plane. I don't care if everyone is naked and the overhead bins are empty, once you've allowed a hijacker onboard the aircraft, armed or not, you've lost. A determined individual can wreak havoc on an aircraft without a weapon of any kind. Just watch the news, it's happened on several occasions since 9/11, just now the PAX don't allow it.

Ever wonder how they narrowed down the PAX lists of the 9/11 aircraft to the 19 muslim morons?

Simple stupid things like who had and didn't have a social security number. A drivers license. A credit history. A passport. An employment history. Tax Returns. Normal everyday people have these things. Terrorist wackos can forge documents, but not the data trail they leave behind.

Everyone on board an aircraft has their identity verified and their name ends up in a computer somewhere or another. In todays modern techno-data-connected world, surely these things can be referenced prior to the PAX even reaching the screeners. Like when they buy a ticket or list for a flight standby.

Then the ones that don't cross reference correctly on 3 or 4 checks get the extra analprobe at the security checkpont while we all go through the normal cursory lookover.

If a pilot wanted to kill people and break things, the yoke in his hand is a lot more deadly than a nail file. Give me a difficult to duplicate holographic gizmo on my ATP, along with my smiling mug and a digitally encrypted smartchip signature. Don't tell me it's cost prohibitive or the credit card companies would be broke by now with all the spam they send out.

And yes, I know what I mentioned is like profiling, but I'd rather see that than get buttsearches every time I beep.

Want security onboard an aircraft? Give me that bulletproof door and the hand cannon you promised.

 

[NEDude]

Some logical points made here. At many large airlines the gate agents have no idea who the crew members are. They don't recognize them by face. Some companies have close to 10,000 pilots and serve 100 destinations. Yet a quick check of the ID and the fact they are in uniform is enough for the gate agent to let them down the jetway and unsupervised access to the aircraft. But the same ID and uniform is not considered enough to help them through security screening. Seems a little odd.

Of course TSA would have you believe everything is the same at every airport. It is not and we all know it. At one of our airports, TSA directs us to circumvent security and enter the ramp area through our operations. At another TSA prohibits this. Which is the correct policy and why isn't it applied the same? Because despite all the hype, TSA is really not that much different than what we had before. Just better paid.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Everyone has to realize that just because someone presents themselves at the security gate in their uniform with ID's it doesn't neccesarily mean that you are going to be flying that day or even that you know how to fly at all. Pilot uniforms are available to the public market and a good crook can easily replicate a company ID.

I submit that a TSA uniform and badge are even easier to duplicate than most airline uniforms.

Now wouldn't that be chaos.

I wouldn't mind these issues so much if procedures were the same at every airport...but they're not. There are some cities I fly out of where from the time you step out of the hotel van to the time you pull the gear up, you don't go anywhere near a TSA agent or a bag check.

I'm the first to say that the TSA has--so far--done a far superior job than the clowns we had before...but there's a long way to go.

Flyhard, I think I'm a pretty open-minded guy, but I can't get behind the idea that the same security rules that apply to passengers should apply to pilots. It's wasteful. There needs to be a way to verify a pilot's, flight attendant's, or mechanic's identity and employment. After that's done, what they're carrying with them is irrelevant.

And before you tell me that it's not irrelevant, once again, consider the cities where crews are not screened at all.