Comair Part Of Delta Cuts

[DDpaysoff]

Go back through the threads and you'll see that furlough protection was the single most important reason to Comair pilots for voting in the LOA. It is well worth it to take a pay freeze to save the jobs of at least 153 pilots.

If nothing else, the Comair pilots have shown through the strike, negotiated FO wages, and now the pay freeze for furlough protection, that they take care of their young. That is extraordinary in today's union environment.

That was the number one reason, even the guys that voted no that I have talked to said at least we got that. I have to say I think J.C. and the group get a kudos from me. From what I understand that minimum number of a/c clause was negotiated into the agreement. They did a good job.
In Ch. 11 we will have to demonstrate our unity again. We are all doing whatever we can to lower costs and do our part to help delta avoid ch. 11. When the good times roll again we are positioned well to be a part of it.
It would be nice if Comair could strike a deal to do some other feed. It would only help Delta's bottom line.

 

[StarChecker]

This is why the Comair pilot group is so sensitive to the Mesa's, and CHQ's underbidding everyone for quick upgrade. It is their lowsy contracts that we will be compared to.

Oh yes...the first thing I thought when I saw our contract was the opportunity to screw Comair pilots and force furloughs and pay cuts. Thank God it's working out exactly the way we planned it....

 

[surplus1]

Another boring diatribe from my pal Surplus1.

I appreciate that General; it is far more generous than words I would use to describe your musings. You see I don't find you boring, I think you're inept. I prefer to be boring.

You are right, they are moving the chess pieces around,

Yes they are. Reminescent of musical chairs played on the deck of the Titanic. My worry is that my little boat is being caught in the whirlpool suction created by your settleing into the depths. I understand why you think it's our fault and I also know why it isn't.

In reality it is your management's fault. They have consistently made the wrong decisions at the wrong time. Many of the threats to your survival and ours could not be prevented. However, after the storm hit, the response of Delta management has been quite similar to the response of FEMA in the aftermath of Katrina; too little too late. Result .... a great company, like our great nation, is incredibly injured. The consequences will be felt for many years to come.

What we have (in terms of our contract) has not contributed to your fall from grace. What you grabbed (in terms of your contract) has, and it took you far too long to give some of it back.

It still isn't your fault; it is their fault. Bad management on the part of Delta's senior executives; Allen, Mullin, Reid. They ignored all the warnings, they failed to reinforce the dikes, and now the city of Delta is flooded in the cesspool. I know you won't like the analogy, and your mentally challenged supporters won't understand it, but that changes nothing. The hole in the dike is so big that even the best pumps can't drain the city of Delta fast enough to save it. Bankruptcy is now virtually unavoidable and there is no "miracle" in the offing that I can see.

There was no way to prevent the storm of industry changes from happening General, but there were many ways to pevent the destruction that followed. There were choices and your mangement failed to make the right ones, over and over again

Our union did exactly the same thing. It's president is much like the mayor of New Orleans; unwilling to make the tough decisions; unable to protect his people; incompetent. You can defend him 'till he!! freezes over but you can't chage the truth. ALPA has failed its members. Not just at Comair but everywhere. All 60,000 of us have been negatively affected by a series of bad policies continued in the face of pending disaster for well over a decade. The warnings were ignored, over and over again. Today, we are all dealing with the consequences.

You may call that whining if you want to, but it isn't. I'm not whining, I'm just not afraid to call it as I see it. The problem isn't the people (pilots) that complain about the policy. The problem is the people that make the policy.

Mistakes are understandable, we all make them (even you and I). What is not understandable or excuseable is the complete denial and inability to accept responsibility for ones failures.

Denial only causes the same mistakes to be repeated over and over again; like a drug addict on crack. That's exactly what is happening. The powers that be in the union will not admit that their polcy is wrong and so, they continue to hang on to it and repeat the same mistakes. To answer your question, that is why I blame ALPA for its role in the mess.

Wait a second, what about SkyWest and their faulty 50-90 seat same pay deal? What about Mesa and their low cost structure? How about Jetblue and their new 100 seat pay rate that is lower than your 70 seat pay rate? Both SlyWest and Jetblue don't have ALPA, but nevertheless it is ALPA's fault.

These are all contributors to the problem but they are not the cause of the problem. In terms of pilot contracts, the begining starts with MESA. Their "problem" was not caused by the MESA pilots. It was caused by ALPA policy. The MESA pilots were merely the first victims to be sacrificed on the altar of that policy. We know what has happened since then.

Yes, JB is not ALPA. But, JB did not pull those low ball rates out of a hat at a magic show. They were triggered by the ALPA decision at MDA. Call a spade a spade, General. Misery loves company. Ultimately ALL of us, you included, will pay the price if you want to fly that equipment. We will pay the price if you don't, just as CHQ pilots are already doing. The decease is highly contagious and often fatal to CBA's. But, it is just like AIDS ... you don't catch it unless you do the wrong things. ALPA and the U pilots did the wrong things and the rest of us will be infected as a result. Denying it will not change that.

We have had to swallow a pill for that first pay cut, and now a second is probably coming.

Yes, that's true and the "pill" has a bad taste I admit. However, the pill is no more than the result of a contagious decease called greed. You contracted that disease as a result of your own actions. It originated on the UAL property under the auspices of ALPA policy. You just had to go United one better didn't you? Remember your slogan ... United Plus?

American also tried to follow the ALPA line but fortunately the APA was able to change course before it was too late. NWA too was caught up in the folly and they too are on the brink. The only thing that kept CAL out of the same quagmire was the fact that ALPA wasn't able to assimilitate them soon enough to help them destroy their company. In fact, the only reason they joined the charade was an effort to protect themselves by what you might do to them (in event of a merger) if they didn't. They drank the Kool Aid but they came to the party too late and escaped the poisonous effect. They were lucky.

You guys thought you were invincible, and didn't deserve the same because "you guys are the only ones profitable..." Well, that doesn't seem to be the case now, does it?

No, we didn't think we were invincible General, we were just too small to prevent your company from swallowing us and to keep your management from destroying us.

This is a moot point today, but the strike that cost you so much most probably would never have occured if your company had not purchased my company. That's history and it changes nothing now or tomorrow, but it's true nevertheless. We of Comair didn't cause that strike. Delta management did!

As far as our smallest plane being an MD88, I don't know about that. Even in Chap 11 only one airline has gone that way with E190s(USAir with CHQ), and that really isn't settled yet. United hasn't done that, they have A319s. I am sure Delta will come to us and first offer us the 100 seater (we also have a new 737-700 pay rate that may come to fruition too), and I don't think ALPA will give that up if they don't have to. A Jetblue pay rate will probably ensue, and that will be it unfortunately.

Perhaps you are right. All of that was speculation on my part and it is speculation on your part. Our opinions have equal weight and neither one is fact. They are just opinions. What eventually comes out in the wash is left to be seen.

I can only hope that when it wash is done you will not be hurt significantly and I wish you well. I'm not naive enough to expect you to wish the same for us. I know what you really think about us for you've made it quite clear.

More 70 seaters will come around for DCI, and some with first class sections (I think CHQ's E170s have that now). That may be your future.

I agree that more 70-seaters will come to DCI. Whether or not that will include Comair is unknown but I think it is unlikely. As long as we continue to be "owned" by Delta, I doubt we will see more of anything in terms of airframes. We are likely to see a lot less of everything. In other words it will get worse before it gets better. All I can do is hope that we will have the good fortune to be severed from the status of being a Delta subsidiary. I believe that will come eventually, but it could easily come too late.

Also, rumors have been swirling that we may recall everyone by the Spring (most will stay away at new jobs probably), and we MIGHT even hire again(after TBKane is back).

I hope you'll be able to recall all of your furloughed pilots one day soon and I hope too that you will be able to hire again. The difference between us is basic General, I do not want you to fail. I see you in the same way that you see us, a millstone around our neck. I prefer to see you swim or sink on your own and I wish the same for my little company.

The attitude of your group makes our marriage one of constant conflict. A divorce will do us both a favor. Shotgun weddings seldom result in bliss and this one sure hasn't.

Give me your resume and I'll see what I can do.....

Thanks for your offer; I respectfully decline. No offense my friend but the truth is I have never wanted to work for your company and I still don't. If I have to make a change, in my opinion, there are many better options. That's not a change in my attitude, it has always been that way. Your "culture" is incompatible with my culture. I'm sorry if it bothers your psyche but personally I have never felt that Delta Air Lines was the center of the universe. I still don't. Maybe one day you'll figure that out.

Best regards.

 

[surplus1]

To my fellow Comair pilots ...

Keep the faith and stay united. The reports of our death are premature.

 

[bvt1151]

Oh yes...the first thing I thought when I saw our contract was the opportunity to screw Comair pilots and force furloughs and pay cuts. Thank God it's working out exactly the way we planned it....

You've missed the point entirely.

 

[On Your Six]

I appreciate that General; it is far more generous than words I would use to describe your musings. You see I don't find you boring, I think you're inept. I prefer to be boring.



Yes they are. Reminescent of musical chairs played on the deck of the Titanic. My worry is that my little boat is being caught in the whirlpool suction created by your settleing into the depths. I understand why you think it's our fault and I also know why it isn't.

In reality it is your management's fault. They have consistently made the wrong decisions at the wrong time. Many of the threats to your survival and ours could not be prevented. However, after the storm hit, the response of Delta management has been quite similar to the response of FEMA in the aftermath of Katrina; too little too late. Result .... a great company, like our great nation, is incredibly injured. The consequences will be felt for many years to come.

What we have (in terms of our contract) has not contributed to your fall from grace. What you grabbed (in terms of your contract) has, and it took you far too long to give some of it back.

It still isn't your fault; it is their fault. Bad management on the part of Delta's senior executives; Allen, Mullin, Reid. They ignored all the warnings, they failed to reinforce the dikes, and now the city of Delta is flooded in the cesspool. I know you won't like the analogy, and your mentally challenged supporters won't understand it, but that changes nothing. The hole in the dike is so big that even the best pumps can't drain the city of Delta fast enough to save it. Bankruptcy is now virtually unavoidable and there is no "miracle" in the offing that I can see.

There was no way to prevent the storm of industry changes from happening General, but there were many ways to pevent the destruction that followed. There were choices and your mangement failed to make the right ones, over and over again

Our union did exactly the same thing. It's president is much like the mayor of New Orleans; unwilling to make the tough decisions; unable to protect his people; incompetent. You can defend him 'till he!! freezes over but you can't chage the truth. ALPA has failed its members. Not just at Comair but everywhere. All 60,000 of us have been negatively affected by a series of bad policies continued in the face of pending disaster for well over a decade. The warnings were ignored, over and over again. Today, we are all dealing with the consequences.

You may call that whining if you want to, but it isn't. I'm not whining, I'm just not afraid to call it as I see it. The problem isn't the people (pilots) that complain about the policy. The problem is the people that make the policy.

Mistakes are understandable, we all make them (even you and I). What is not understandable or excuseable is the complete denial and inability to accept responsibility for ones failures.

Denial only causes the same mistakes to be repeated over and over again; like a drug addict on crack. That's exactly what is happening. The powers that be in the union will not admit that their polcy is wrong and so, they continue to hang on to it and repeat the same mistakes. To answer your question, that is why I blame ALPA for its role in the mess.




These are all contributors to the problem but they are not the cause of the problem. In terms of pilot contracts, the begining starts with MESA. Their "problem" was not caused by the MESA pilots. It was caused by ALPA policy. The MESA pilots were merely the first victims to be sacrificed on the altar of that policy. We know what has happened since then.

Yes, JB is not ALPA. But, JB did not pull those low ball rates out of a hat at a magic show. They were triggered by the ALPA decision at MDA. Call a spade a spade, General. Misery loves company. Ultimately ALL of us, you included, will pay the price if you want to fly that equipment. We will pay the price if you don't, just as CHQ pilots are already doing. The decease is highly contagious and often fatal to CBA's. But, it is just like AIDS ... you don't catch it unless you do the wrong things. ALPA and the U pilots did the wrong things and the rest of us will be infected as a result. Denying it will not change that.



Yes, that's true and the "pill" has a bad taste I admit. However, the pill is no more than the result of a contagious decease called greed. You contracted that disease as a result of your own actions. It originated on the UAL property under the auspices of ALPA policy. You just had to go United one better didn't you? Remember your slogan ... United Plus?

American also tried to follow the ALPA line but fortunately the APA was able to change course before it was too late. NWA too was caught up in the folly and they too are on the brink. The only thing that kept CAL out of the same quagmire was the fact that ALPA wasn't able to assimilitate them soon enough to help them destroy their company. In fact, the only reason they joined the charade was an effort to protect themselves by what you might do to them (in event of a merger) if they didn't. They drank the Kool Aid but they came to the party too late and escaped the poisonous effect. They were lucky.



No, we didn't think we were invincible General, we were just too small to prevent your company from swallowing us and to keep your management from destroying us.

This is a moot point today, but the strike that cost you so much most probably would never have occured if your company had not purchased my company. That's history and it changes nothing now or tomorrow, but it's true nevertheless. We of Comair didn't cause that strike. Delta management did!



Perhaps you are right. All of that was speculation on my part and it is speculation on your part. Our opinions have equal weight and neither one is fact. They are just opinions. What eventually comes out in the wash is left to be seen.

I can only hope that when it wash is done you will not be hurt significantly and I wish you well. I'm not naive enough to expect you to wish the same for us. I know what you really think about us for you've made it quite clear.



I agree that more 70-seaters will come to DCI. Whether or not that will include Comair is unknown but I think it is unlikely. As long as we continue to be "owned" by Delta, I doubt we will see more of anything in terms of airframes. We are likely to see a lot less of everything. In other words it will get worse before it gets better. All I can do is hope that we will have the good fortune to be severed from the status of being a Delta subsidiary. I believe that will come eventually, but it could easily come too late.



I hope you'll be able to recall all of your furloughed pilots one day soon and I hope too that you will be able to hire again. The difference between us is basic General, I do not want you to fail. I see you in the same way that you see us, a millstone around our neck. I prefer to see you swim or sink on your own and I wish the same for my little company.

The attitude of your group makes our marriage one of constant conflict. A divorce will do us both a favor. Shotgun weddings seldom result in bliss and this one sure hasn't.



Thanks for your offer; I respectfully decline. No offense my friend but the truth is I have never wanted to work for your company and I still don't. If I have to make a change, in my opinion, there are many better options. That's not a change in my attitude, it has always been that way. Your "culture" is incompatible with my culture. I'm sorry if it bothers your psyche but personally I have never felt that Delta Air Lines was the center of the universe. I still don't. Maybe one day you'll figure that out.

Best regards.

I think your response to the General (even though he can be very crass at times) is just way out of line. I don't think he advocates furloughs or that he is mocking the Comair group. You claim he wants the Comair group to fail - what? Just the opposite - it sounds like he has always been a defender of the DAL furloughs and never wanted to see anyone (DAL, Comair or anyone else) on the street.

Sounds like the General and many others (FDJ2 and others) fully oppose the efforts of the RJDC. No surprise there - fighting over scope is an issue at every airline. That was the case at UAL when I was there many years back. How did Comair respond when CHQ started to encroach on its territory (FLA) a few years back? Did Comair pilots welcome CHQ with open arms into its former territory? If you were a DAL pilot, would you encourage more CRJ flying and less mainline flying that could jeopardize your position?

It's easy to slam the General because he can be a bit blunt and even crass at times, but he is consistent. He has consistently supported the DAL furloughees and I do not see him supporting the failure of Comair or the furloughing of Comair pilots. Would he like to see a reduction in CRJ flying? Sounds like it. But the current economic situation clearly doesn't support a lot of CRJ-200 flying with low fares and high fuel prices. But don't confuse that with gloating or openly advocating any furloughs. Hopefully the job impact will not be as severe as some people would have you believe.

 

[General Lee]

I appreciate that General; it is far more generous than words I would use to describe your musings. You see I don't find you boring, I think you're inept. I prefer to be boring.



Yes they are. Reminescent of musical chairs played on the deck of the Titanic. My worry is that my little boat is being caught in the whirlpool suction created by your settleing into the depths. I understand why you think it's our fault and I also know why it isn't.

In reality it is your management's fault. They have consistently made the wrong decisions at the wrong time. Many of the threats to your survival and ours could not be prevented. However, after the storm hit, the response of Delta management has been quite similar to the response of FEMA in the aftermath of Katrina; too little too late. Result .... a great company, like our great nation, is incredibly injured. The consequences will be felt for many years to come.

What we have (in terms of our contract) has not contributed to your fall from grace. What you grabbed (in terms of your contract) has, and it took you far too long to give some of it back.

It still isn't your fault; it is their fault. Bad management on the part of Delta's senior executives; Allen, Mullin, Reid. They ignored all the warnings, they failed to reinforce the dikes, and now the city of Delta is flooded in the cesspool. I know you won't like the analogy, and your mentally challenged supporters won't understand it, but that changes nothing. The hole in the dike is so big that even the best pumps can't drain the city of Delta fast enough to save it. Bankruptcy is now virtually unavoidable and there is no "miracle" in the offing that I can see.

There was no way to prevent the storm of industry changes from happening General, but there were many ways to pevent the destruction that followed. There were choices and your mangement failed to make the right ones, over and over again

Our union did exactly the same thing. It's president is much like the mayor of New Orleans; unwilling to make the tough decisions; unable to protect his people; incompetent. You can defend him 'till he!! freezes over but you can't chage the truth. ALPA has failed its members. Not just at Comair but everywhere. All 60,000 of us have been negatively affected by a series of bad policies continued in the face of pending disaster for well over a decade. The warnings were ignored, over and over again. Today, we are all dealing with the consequences.

You may call that whining if you want to, but it isn't. I'm not whining, I'm just not afraid to call it as I see it. The problem isn't the people (pilots) that complain about the policy. The problem is the people that make the policy.

Mistakes are understandable, we all make them (even you and I). What is not understandable or excuseable is the complete denial and inability to accept responsibility for ones failures.

Denial only causes the same mistakes to be repeated over and over again; like a drug addict on crack. That's exactly what is happening. The powers that be in the union will not admit that their polcy is wrong and so, they continue to hang on to it and repeat the same mistakes. To answer your question, that is why I blame ALPA for its role in the mess.




These are all contributors to the problem but they are not the cause of the problem. In terms of pilot contracts, the begining starts with MESA. Their "problem" was not caused by the MESA pilots. It was caused by ALPA policy. The MESA pilots were merely the first victims to be sacrificed on the altar of that policy. We know what has happened since then.

Yes, JB is not ALPA. But, JB did not pull those low ball rates out of a hat at a magic show. They were triggered by the ALPA decision at MDA. Call a spade a spade, General. Misery loves company. Ultimately ALL of us, you included, will pay the price if you want to fly that equipment. We will pay the price if you don't, just as CHQ pilots are already doing. The decease is highly contagious and often fatal to CBA's. But, it is just like AIDS ... you don't catch it unless you do the wrong things. ALPA and the U pilots did the wrong things and the rest of us will be infected as a result. Denying it will not change that.



Yes, that's true and the "pill" has a bad taste I admit. However, the pill is no more than the result of a contagious decease called greed. You contracted that disease as a result of your own actions. It originated on the UAL property under the auspices of ALPA policy. You just had to go United one better didn't you? Remember your slogan ... United Plus?

American also tried to follow the ALPA line but fortunately the APA was able to change course before it was too late. NWA too was caught up in the folly and they too are on the brink. The only thing that kept CAL out of the same quagmire was the fact that ALPA wasn't able to assimilitate them soon enough to help them destroy their company. In fact, the only reason they joined the charade was an effort to protect themselves by what you might do to them (in event of a merger) if they didn't. They drank the Kool Aid but they came to the party too late and escaped the poisonous effect. They were lucky.



No, we didn't think we were invincible General, we were just too small to prevent your company from swallowing us and to keep your management from destroying us.

This is a moot point today, but the strike that cost you so much most probably would never have occured if your company had not purchased my company. That's history and it changes nothing now or tomorrow, but it's true nevertheless. We of Comair didn't cause that strike. Delta management did!



Perhaps you are right. All of that was speculation on my part and it is speculation on your part. Our opinions have equal weight and neither one is fact. They are just opinions. What eventually comes out in the wash is left to be seen.

I can only hope that when it wash is done you will not be hurt significantly and I wish you well. I'm not naive enough to expect you to wish the same for us. I know what you really think about us for you've made it quite clear.



I agree that more 70-seaters will come to DCI. Whether or not that will include Comair is unknown but I think it is unlikely. As long as we continue to be "owned" by Delta, I doubt we will see more of anything in terms of airframes. We are likely to see a lot less of everything. In other words it will get worse before it gets better. All I can do is hope that we will have the good fortune to be severed from the status of being a Delta subsidiary. I believe that will come eventually, but it could easily come too late.



I hope you'll be able to recall all of your furloughed pilots one day soon and I hope too that you will be able to hire again. The difference between us is basic General, I do not want you to fail. I see you in the same way that you see us, a millstone around our neck. I prefer to see you swim or sink on your own and I wish the same for my little company.

The attitude of your group makes our marriage one of constant conflict. A divorce will do us both a favor. Shotgun weddings seldom result in bliss and this one sure hasn't.



Thanks for your offer; I respectfully decline. No offense my friend but the truth is I have never wanted to work for your company and I still don't. If I have to make a change, in my opinion, there are many better options. That's not a change in my attitude, it has always been that way. Your "culture" is incompatible with my culture. I'm sorry if it bothers your psyche but personally I have never felt that Delta Air Lines was the center of the universe. I still don't. Maybe one day you'll figure that out.

Best regards.

It took me 4 hours to read that, and I went to Harvard......DA DA DA DAM. You can still be my right seat anytime. But, if you want to go off and try something else, I suggest writing text books or creating a new "Harry Potter" like series called "DALPAN, and his Regional Anal Probe" or "RJ DCean, and the Pretty Elves named Lawson and Forddy." You have done a great job so far with Fiction, you may make MILLIONS. I really don't want you to fail here, but I disagree with a lot of what the Comair group as a whole has done over the last 4 years. I do not wish unemployment on anyone. You seem like a good guy, just very loquacious. And, I do love my job---you are right there. That is not a bad thing.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[chperplt]

It took me 4 hours to read that, and I went to Harvard

The General is always there to make me laugh!!! Harvard..... LOL

 

[WSurf]

He didn't miss the point! He avoided the point!!!!

 

[Mikes Apartment]

HEY SURPLUS 1: You suck! I don't think I've ever read any bigger bull$hit than your posts. You need to get in touch with reality dork.