Comair may be getting the Dork Jets.

[DoJetMX]

I just parked next to 401 (aka spirit of LGA...or as we say "la-gaaa")

I was one of the guys that had to put those Spirit Of LaGargabge stickers on 401. Seems so long ago.

 

[Twotter76]

I remember when I was at ACA we had a cabin mock-up of the DoJet for the flight attendants at the employee center that I think disappeared. Perhaps it has reappeared in MKE - a sign of things to come no doubt. DoJetMX I too like your avatar. I always thought that it would have made more sense to keep the DoJets for Indy and use them on short haul routes - no furloughs, more service, more revenue - everyone wins. Especially if the maintainence issues with those planes are being resolved (ie short engine life). But what I do I know, I just drive...

 

[DoJetMX]

I always thought that it would have made more sense to keep the DoJets for Indy and use them on short haul routes - no furloughs, more service, more revenue - everyone wins. Especially if the maintainence issues with those planes are being resolved (ie short engine life). But what I do I know, I just drive...

All obvious business decisions aside pertaining to the DoJets in Indy, I am all for the NO FURLOUGHS (MX and Pilots alike), more service, and more revenue !! As for the MX, well there WERE a large group of us that knew the plane well, and could keep it moving. Oh well, in another life. Now I have to get to know the CRJ.

 

[jarhead]

Wednesday, August 4, 2004

New carrier may join Delta
Midwest Air Group would fly regional jets

By James Pilcher
Enquirer staff writer

Erlanger-based Comair could have a new Delta Connection sibling as soon as this month, with Milwaukee-based Midwest Air Group in final negotiations to start flying regional jets for Delta Air Lines.

Midwest, which operates a regional subsidiary called Skyway/Midwest Express, is hoping to take control of 30 Fairchild Dornier 328JET, 32-seat regional jets from Atlantic Coast Airlines. ACA now flies those planes for Atlanta-based Delta.

That could mean the creation of a new pilot base here, with eight to 10 new pilots possibly needed per plane.

"We feel we are very close to getting closure on the deal," Midwest spokeswoman Carol Skornicka said Tuesday. "We are looking forward to this, since it will be a major expansion for us and a pretty big variation from our current business model."

The planes are based out of the Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport, Comair's home base and Delta's second-largest hub overall, and will continue to feed regional traffic into the hub, no matter who flies them.

Midwest came to the verge of bankruptcy last summer, but recovered. Its stock closed at $3.32 Tuesday, and the company lost just $2.9 million in the second quarter. The separately branded Skyway/Midwest Express once operated two daily flights from Cincinnati to Milwaukee, but shut down those routes this summer.

Comair officials said Tuesday that they had turned in a bid to fly the planes, and were still awaiting a decision.

Delta officials said they are hoping to have an announcement within two weeks.

Midwest would be the second addition to the Delta Connection lineup in the past two years, but would keep the total number of airlines in the network to five because Atlantic Coast is dropping out.

The other members are fellow Delta subsidiary Atlantic Southeast Airlines; Utah-based Skywest; and Indianapolis-based Chautauqua.

The shuffling began earlier this year, when Atlantic Coast started its own low-cost carrier called Independence Air.

The new carrier is based out of Dulles airport near Washington, thereby voiding Atlantic Coast's contracts with Delta and United.

Tuesday was its last day to fly regional flights on behalf of United. Atlantic Coast spokesman Rick DeLisi said the Dornier jets should be turned back over to Delta by November.

He added that there are no plans for Independence to fly to Cincinnati, but flights between Dulles and Indianapolis, Dayton and Columbus start Aug. 15.

Delta controls the Dornier planes, and has been looking for a new operator for them. In an interview last month, the executive who runs Delta's regional flying network said that the airline had discussed turning the planes over to wholly-owned subsidiaries such as Comair as well as to Midwest.

"But even though Comair is a first-class airline, it would be hard to take on an entire new airplane type, especially one with the maintenance issues that these planes have," said Fred Buttrell, president and chief executive officer of Delta Connection Inc. "Midwest already flies these and is ready to take over."

Atlantic Coast officials acknowledged that the Dornier jets had repeated engine problems that caused frequent engine replacements. They also said maintenance was expensive since the plane's manufacturer had gone bankrupt.

But Midwest spokeswoman Skornicka said officials at that airline "loved the plane. We think it is very user friendly."

She also said that her company is being careful to make sure any contracts include protections, in case Delta files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection, but declined to discuss specifics.

Delta officials also declined to talk about specifics of the negotiation. The airline has lost more than $5billion since the 9/11 attacks.

 

[moscowcfi]

Wednesday, August 4, 2004

New carrier may join Delta
Midwest Air Group would fly regional jets

By James Pilcher
Enquirer staff writer

So I guess it's a definite maybe.

 

[Kohflot]

So now what about the pilots?

 

[CL600Pilot]

Maint. issues??

As an aside (from a possible future Do Jet driver)just to satisfy my own curiosities - I've been seeing an awful lot of comments about 'maint. issues' - even in the Enquirer article it was mentioned - what have been the problems with the airplane? I know that engine life was mentioned earlier in the thread - are you just seeing shorter than expected engine life or have there been actual engine failures? Is it only the engines or are there airframe and avionics issues as well?

Just curious.


CL

 

[surplus1]

Good luck to the Skyway group. Personally, I would hope CMR can avoid having to take on this albatross.

 

[Guam360]

more pilots, more routes, why not.....?

 

[surplus1]

Different equipment, operational difficulties, more cost for no particular advantage. The overall welfare of the Company is what benefits Comair pilots over the long term, not short term growth for a few pilots.

Pilot groups that sell themselves for "growth" are a detriment to the whole. Comair needs more CR7's, not a bunch of Dornier's.

 

[agonyairfo]

I personally would be happy to see Comair get the Dornier. I don't know that it makes good business sense. Growth is good from my limited perspective though. I can understand fear from current comair fo's worried about junior manning into the frj, but i doubt that would happen. They would need to hire the number of pilots it would take to staff the FRJ's. I doubt they would train more new hires in the CRJ and junior man CRJ fo's into the FRJ. Thats two training events where they could get away with one. New hires will go into the frj. Now as far as the captains are concerned, where looking at about 150 right? I dont think there would be that much difficulty in finding volunteers from the current fo ranks (new hires not having the company time and very likely no where near the total time). A new hire now (with no additional growth and based on attrition of 10 pilots a month, which is very high compared to now) would take almost 6 years to upgrade. Add to the fact that there are quite a few fo's who already put a couple years in the right seat at other carriers, and there will be some upgrade antsy people.

I read about a frj/crj swap of 1.6 or 1.8 frj's to a new crj. I can understand Bombardier wanting to get rid of new crj's, but why the heck would they want used frjs instead. I would think they could get 1 1/2 brand new frjs for one crj. Now that there used, I would think it would be 3 to 1 for it to be a competitive offer. Think about a trade in. You go to the BMW dealer and offer him a 97 Saturn and a 96 Hyundai for a new Beemer. Ok the crj is not the BMW of airplanes, but you get my point.

 

[Guam360]

sure we need CR7`s, will we get them, probably not, scope?????hopefully we get some more!!!!!

30 more aircraft, sure, it is good for alot of pilots here,　upgrades for many, who knows what kind of deal they can make with Bombardier, lease them back for 50 seaters, something like they did with the brasilia.

training costs are training costs, are we going to shut down the company because of training costs, no.

we need something, another base or another aircraft type, this CRJ/CVG Bullstein is getting old.

don`t you remember, you retired.

 

[agonyairfo]

Different equipment, operational difficulties, more cost for no particular advantage. The overall welfare of the Company is what benefits Comair pilots over the long term, not short term growth for a few pilots.


I would be glad to fly the FRJ. I am not management. I have zero say in the decisions management makes. THey will look out for the bottom line. They arent going to get them because pilots want them or not. I am just saying I would be happy with more airframes. Sure lets get more 70's. Is there something that says we have to chose between the two? If you think by us getting the FRJ's that we would be skipped over for future 70 deliveries, I can see your point.

 

[agonyairfo]

Pilot groups that sell themselves for "growth" are a detriment to the whole. Comair needs more CR7's, not a bunch of Dornier's.[/QUOTE]
Who is talking about selling ourselves?

 

[surplus1]

You make some good points, but your first sentence says it all; it doesn't make good business sense.

The Comair pilots' contract is already under intense pressure, primarily as a result of other pilot groups that sold thier souls for "growth". At those carriers some people got "quick upgrades" (with the idea that they could go somewhere else), usually at the expense of low-ball wages for everyone, especially First Officers. I don't see that as something we need to copy.

Right now our Company needs to keep its costs under control, not increase them by adding a different aircraft to the fleet; especially one that is know to be a "weird bird". Certainly not because it would mean a quicker "upgrade" for less than 10% of the pilot group. On top of that, we would probably have to negotiate wages "lower" than those currently paid to the present pilots of those aircraft, a concessionary trend that, in my opinion, we would do much better to avoid like the plague it would undoubtedly become.

Granted, it might be possible to exchange these airplanes for more CRJs at some unknown time in the future, but we really don't need more 50-seat airplanes, we need to trade some of the one's we have for more CR7s. Of course right now we can't do that due to artificial restrictions. Nevertheless, I see no good business reason to burden our Company with the Dornier's, especially to gain a few upgrades, even if its 150.

I'm not a "management type" by any means but I know that the welfare of my Company results in the welfare of its pilots. Creating a long-term mess for a short-term gain for a few, just doesn't make sense.

We don't have any Beemers or any Saturns. We have some good Chevys and a few Cadillacs. It would be nice if we could trade some of the Chevys for more Cadillacs, but we'll be better off to stay away from Saturns in the hope that we might get Beemers. Who knows, in time we may get Beemers anyway, without having to suffer through the Saturns. In that case we'd wind up with three types instead of two; not a good deal.

Times are a-changing and I think we would do well to secure what we have until we see what comes out in the pending wash. In my book, letting the DoJets go to Skyway is a great way to do that. We never had them, never wanted them, and don't need them now.

JMO

I personally would be happy to see Comair get the Dornier. I don't know that it makes good business sense. Growth is good from my limited perspective though. I can understand fear from current comair fo's worried about junior manning into the frj, but i doubt that would happen. They would need to hire the number of pilots it would take to staff the FRJ's. I doubt they would train more new hires in the CRJ and junior man CRJ fo's into the FRJ. Thats two training events where they could get away with one. New hires will go into the frj. Now as far as the captains are concerned, where looking at about 150 right? I dont think there would be that much difficulty in finding volunteers from the current fo ranks (new hires not having the company time and very likely no where near the total time). A new hire now (with no additional growth and based on attrition of 10 pilots a month, which is very high compared to now) would take almost 6 years to upgrade. Add to the fact that there are quite a few fo's who already put a couple years in the right seat at other carriers, and there will be some upgrade antsy people.

I read about a frj/crj swap of 1.6 or 1.8 frj's to a new crj. I can understand Bombardier wanting to get rid of new crj's, but why the heck would they want used frjs instead. I would think they could get 1 1/2 brand new frjs for one crj. Now that there used, I would think it would be 3 to 1 for it to be a competitive offer. Think about a trade in. You go to the BMW dealer and offer him a 97 Saturn and a 96 Hyundai for a new Beemer. Ok the crj is not the BMW of airplanes, but you get my point.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Surplus

Surplus,

I could not possibly disagree more.

I dont care whether this management team wants to buy CRJ700s or DornierJets, or Saab 340s, or Metroliners, or Piper Apaches.

Another airplane means one thing: 10 more people on the senority list. It strengthens the pilot group and provides a buffer for those on the junior end of the list.

No, I dont advocate concessions in order to "purchase" the Dorniers. I do, however, believe that it is more than appropriate to negotiate a competitive payrate for that aircraft if management intends to pursue it. Then, simply let them do their job.

As a trade-unionist it is none of my business how management chooses to run the company. But if they say they want to pursue new aircraft, all I can do is close my eyes and pray that they are successful.

-Mike

 

[surplus1]

Surplus,

I could not possibly disagree more.

That's fair and I have no problem with it.

I dont care whether this management team wants to buy CRJ700s or DornierJets, or Saab 340s, or Metroliners, or Piper Apaches.

Another airplane means one thing: 10 more people on the senority list. It strengthens the pilot group and provides a buffer for those on the junior end of the list.

Another airplane does mean more pilots and it does buffer those on the junior end of the list, but that doesn't mean that it strengthens the pilot group. If a new ariplane is turns out to be the wrong airplane for the Company there will be the "buffer" you mention for a short term, only to result in an overall weakening of the Company, which in turn will lose (for the pilots) not only the buffer but more. That doesn't strengthen the pilot group and I see it as shortsighted.

I'm 100% in favor of growth, buffers, and any other improvements that the pilot group can gain, but I want those improvements to be lasting. I want permanent gains that will produce long-term benefits and more job security for all, especially the junior pilots. I just don't think that Dorniers or Apaches would provide either one. We do not differ on what we want but we do differ on how to get it..

No, I dont advocate concessions in order to "purchase" the Dorniers. I do, however, believe that it is more than appropriate to negotiate a competitive payrate for that aircraft if management intends to pursue it. Then, simply let them do their job.

If in fact management intends to pursue that aircraft, it follows that we will have to negotiate for appropriate compensation. I'm not against that and fully recognize that we would have to do it for whatever "new" equipment management might decide to operate. That however, is not the same as wanting management to pursue the acquisition of aircraft that are not beneficial to the Company. Apples and oranges.

"Simply letting them do their job" is something we really have no choice about. That however, does not equate to a need for silence if you think they aren't doing the job in the best way. Sometimes "letting them do their job" ultimately results in bankruptcy when they don't, as you know better than I.

As a trade-unionist it is none of my business how management chooses to run the company. But if they say they want to pursue new aircraft, all I can do is close my eyes and pray that they are successful.
-Mike

Closing your eyes and praying for success sometimes results in unanswered prayers. You should know that too. As a trade-unionist the welfare of the Company is definitely your business for it equates to the welfare of the pilots in our union. In fact that welfare is job number one of the trade- unionist. I agree that we can't run the company and should not try, however to just close our eyes and pray for success does not strike me as a wise course of action. A trade-unionist that relies on closed eyes and prayer isn't doing his job.

I have read many of your posts (in other threads) where you have said that you see job security as our number one issue. I could not agree more with that concept. It is exactly why I don't see expanding the fleet with Dornier's as advantageous to the pilots at this time.

I think our goal is the same. In this case we have a somewhat different idea of how best to get there. Anyway, nothing that I or you say here is going to change what the Company does. If they are determined to get those airplanes and they succeed, then we'll have to fly them and, as you say, "pray for success".

Take care.

 

[surplus1]

I am just saying I would be happy with more airframes. Sure lets get more 70's. Is there something that says we have to chose between the two? If you think by us getting the FRJ's that we would be skipped over for future 70 deliveries, I can see your point.

Like you, I would also be happy with more airframes but I will be a lot happier if they are the right airframes. No, there is nothing I know of that says we have to choose between CR7's and FRJ's. I don't have a crystal ball. I also don't know if we would be "skipped over" for future 70's if we operate the FRJ.

What I do think is that future CR7's will go to the subsidiary that is best equipped to operate them successfully and right now, that is Comair. I would not want us to make an error that might get us into trouble and decrease our chances. In my opinion, our contract will not do that. However, getting bogged down with a strange aircraft type just might. Currently we are the best at what we do and have been for a long time. I would not want to see that change.

When the time comes for more and larger aircraft, I think that we are in the best position to get them and I'm very interested in not doing anything that might adversely affect that. In the current state of the industry, there's not much room for mistakes.

Again, I have no crystal ball. I'm just using what experience I have to offer the best opinion that I can for our future under existing circumstances. Maybe I'm not right about this, but I think I am.

Our company has looked at this aircraft type before. At that time our pilot leaders were asked for their opinions and did not recommend it as the best choice. They recommended that we stay away from the Dornier product. That is what our management chose to do (perhaps not because of our recommendation) and it turned out to be the right choice, by a wide margin. I hope we make the right choice again.

 

[bvt1151]

Dorniers would be a great addition to Comair. As far as pilots are concerned flying is flying. To be able to protect our underbelly with 32-seat aircraft would give is futher reason to doubt CHQ's presence, as well as SKYW or ACA (obviously). Next up should be the Dash-8-Q400 to protect our short stage length flying. Remember that acquiring these aircraft does not mean we won't be receiving any more CR7's or 90's should they become available.
If Comair were to receive the Dorniers, obviously they would be profitable since no airline would accept unprofitable terms. Business-wise, the Dorniers do make sense, not to mention they could be converted to CRJ flying more easily if we already have the airframes.

Nothing is too small or too slow for me! Big heads lead to small pocketbooks and I'm paid hourly!

 

[MedFlyer]

While the extra growth provided by the 328 would be nice, I would be hesitant to take them at Comair. From the rumors I've heard, DL hasn't ever made money with the 328 operation and the economics of the 328 will likely decline as the fleet ages and yields systemwide continue to drop. The extra costs associated with the 328's would likely eat into Comair's margins and reduce Comair's profitability. Reduced profitability (or losses) will have an impact on pilot earnings in the long run. I'd rather work for a profitable company with slow growth, then a rapidly growing company whose bottomline is falling apart.

I also don't see DL staying in the under 40 seat market too long (except for maybe a few SLC based markets). If a market can't fill at least 40 seats at least three times a day, it will be dropped. I'd guess that whoever gets the 328 (SkyWay or Comair) will only operate them for 5 years and then DL will dump the 328's altogether.