Comair In Slc

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Fellowaviator
Thanks for the invite to explain how you started the race to the bottom. I see you have company on the board as PFT and, seemingly proud of it.

While others were earning a position in the proper, if not glamerous (but still honorable) path you dropped to your knees like a street hooker and toked on a schlong to get your position. Before you ever set foot in the industry you were doing your part to destroy it. There has to be a genesis to the state we collectively are in today. I can trace that back to your original sin of having no pride in yourself or your profession. PFT, what a way to start out. I suppose the good thing is that people know what you do, only thing to do is negotiate the price. Much the same as a prostitute.

Aviator TX
Just go ahead and call security. The word will eventually filter out who you are if you do it enough. Your at best a Captain at a regional. I am also. I know what powers you think you have. Its not much, just the same as me. So call security, it may give you the power trip you seek.

And you point is?????

Darn, no thank you yet.

Skywest pilots are pathetic. They look to us Unionized pilot groups to fight the fight and are unwilling to step in and do their part.


If it were not for the Unionized pilots standing up thru the years, just think what your salaries and working conditions would be like.

Pathetic, just pathetic.

 

[AviatorTx]

Re: You must be a joy to fly with...

So you regret not being a PFT "whore" while calling others out for something that does not even approach doing the damage you wish you had done to the industry? You can't have it both ways.

I'm confused.

I can tell you are confused. Sorry, I cannot help you there, but professional help is available.

Like I said... Unless you were a military pilot, you paid for training, or you parents did for you. Most of us are guilty in one way or another. Me included. There is little difference in paying for a CFI, or a ( insert plane type ) checkout. If you paid for a CFI in order to teach at a flight school to build time, you did the same as someone that paid for a COEX seat, or a type for a SWA interview. Lets just call a spade a spade. I'm not saying that's wrong, it's just a shame that there are that many more pilots than there are jobs to where the market can allow for such a thing.

Airline pilot jobs are traditionally union jobs. Any gains in the profession can be directly tied to one union or another. Hell, even Gulfstream is union. If you are working for a non-union carrier that consistently votes down union representation, you serve two purposes: Dragging down the rest of the industry, while owing any gains you have to the union folks that have set the bar in a certain area. Again though... It's all about you.

 

[Russ]

Fellowaviator
When I look at a clownair pilot, I dont see the things you would like me to. I see whining PFT babies in most of your senior ranks. I can understand your anger twords SkyWest, I agree with your argument about union issues. Read it again, I agree with you.

But I can help look at you as a leech yourself. For all the anger and disgust your harbor at SkyWest, I feel the same about clownair pilots who bought the job. Its unethical, dishonorable and pathetic. If you had it to do again would you inhale the meat like you did for a job, or now that you've seen the damage you did would you take the proper path?

 

[Rogue5]

I'm not saying that's wrong, it's just a shame that there are that many more pilots than there are jobs to where the market can allow for such a thing.

Airline pilot jobs are traditionally union jobs. Any gains in the profession can be directly tied to one union or another.

So can I assume from the above quotes you will be sending in your cheack to the various left-leaning election campains? I mean, in the name of consitancy, you should therefore be: A) against free-market capitalism, and b) supportive of progressive labor rights.

I don't know if you live on the west coast but I wonder if you may have shopped at Albertsons/Vons/Safeway during their latest stike for health-care benefits, will you refuse the opportunity to fly a Boeing because they have agreed with the new ANA deal to send the construction of the wing of the 7E7 overseas to Japan, and finally, close to home, I assume you will disagree with the ability of businnessmen to make unimpeded decisions without oversight, i.e.: COEX's decision to be an "all jet fleet," and then attempt to run routes that an ERJ could not support.

Did SkyWest steal your IAH flying because they are non-union? NO! They were offered it because it was run at a loss by XJET, who were spun off and therefore had to earn their keep. SkyWest still had EMB's, and could thus turn a profit. The union had nothing to do with it.

Did SkyWest bump all of your captains back to FO after 9/11? No. Becuase they were unaffiliated with any major and had no formal flow-through/back, their pilot group was not adversely affected by the layoffs at the majors.

Do SkyWest pilots make less than you do? Most likely not. Their work rules and pay are above industry average. By acceptiing this and not unionizing are they lowering the bar? How could they be?

This is a group of pilots by virtue of good fortune and good management have faired pretty well as of late. Lucky? Hell yes. Guilty of wrong-doing? Hell no! Listen: we're all doing the best we can. Some have been fortunate, some have not. I don't buy into this "I'm better becuase my airline is better that yours crap." I applied to almost every airline represented on this board and (knowing what I did at the time) would have gone to almost every one. The fact is, SkyWest called me first.

That, I believe, is the main reason why everyone of you is where you are today, for better or for worse.

This industy is severely damaged, but that is the economic world we live in today. The best we can do is focus energies on where the change needs to be made: labor representation with conflicts of interest, disinterested "leaders", government/industry corruption...

The pilot you see wearing another pair of wings is not your enemy, he is truely you.

 

[AviatorTx]

The pilot you see wearing another pair of wings is not your enemy, he is truely you.

Thus, the conflict: We are our own worst enemy...

 

[P38JLightning]

must be brave?

I can't believe the Skywest pilots would be hostile (either passive or agressive) towards the Comair pilots. Afterall, our standing up to management has directly benefited them. They are currently getting OUR flying, as ALL DCI orders and options were purchased by Comair and ASA, for Comair and ASA, not "DCI."

Skywest has grown like crazy on the "Delta side" since our strike, and has directly benefited from it in terms of pay and QOL. Yet they will NEVER be the top of the industry. Yet they will always benefit from those who fight to get to the top or fight to stay on top.

Its like when you invite your friends over to help you move, Skywest (and Chautauqua) are the friends who only pretend to lift their end of the sofa, and are only there for the free beer and pizza after the work is done.

Don't believe me? Just ask your "DCI family" and "scope impact" members who pledge mutual support to all of us in raising the bar and stopping the race to the bottom, because we are all in this together, then turn around and underbid us to help their company "win growth aircraft". A position you were in precisely because WE refused concessions to help ALL of us.

You're welcome. Fellow is right. You can save your cold shoulder for someone who cares.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Well said P38!!!!!!! They just don't get it, do they?
Or they do get it and don't care? Who the puck knows.

They are leachs, plane and simple.


After we fought hard to raise the bar they knife us in the back with those whore wages just to get the aircraft we turned down by saying no to concessions.


Pathetic, just pathetic.

 

[AirBill]

Re: must be brave?

Its like when you invite your friends over to help you move, Skywest (and Chautauqua) are the friends who only pretend to lift their end of the sofa, and are only there for the free beer and pizza after the work is done.

P38,

It's not that no one appreciates what you guys did. We would have LOVED to get CMR + 6, or whatever number was floated. But it gets a little frustrating when we're tied with the "lowering the bar" crowd, when the fact is Mesa lowered the bar before we even got to that point in negotiations.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Don't get me wrong. I thought it was funny. I guess what really p#ssed me off was not one of those guys and gals said "thank you" for fighting so hard for decent wages so those leachs could get paid what they do.( Except for the 70 seat pay, sorry, we tried. you just failed yourselves on that one.)

Oh my, one of the original PFT crowd is miffed that because he didn't get a group hug. Hey thanks for buying your job back in the 90's which put the bar so close to the ground to begin with.

What's even more amusing is that before CMR went on strike their pay and work rules were behind SkyWest. So CMR leapfrogs ahead in some respects and then 9/11 hits. So now we're listening to a CMR puke gloat over having a decent contract that just happened to be negotiated shortly prior to 9/11. I haven't seen too many regionals fare well in post 9/11 negotiations. Even now SKYW has some work rule advantages over many other carriers.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Oh my, one of the original PFT crowd is miffed that because he didn't get a group hug. Hey thanks for buying your job back in the 90's which is what put the bar so close to the ground to begin with.

And your point is?

 

[Dave Benjamin]

I'll use simple words so you you might understand.

When you paid $12,000 for that 10k/yr FO position it caused irreparable long term harm to the bargaining position of regional pilots.

Oh wait a minute. I forgot I was going to keep this simple for you. When you or more likely your parents handed Conair that check with the big number on it you fu_ked it up for all of your fellow pilots.

That's right. You really screwed it up for the guys that had some integrity. We had to wait on the sidelines until PFT went away. And we haven't forgotten nor will we.

 

[Gobi Gred]

Dave,

I agree that PFT hasn't helped our profession, but neither is being non union! Yeah SkyWest has some great work rules. Work rules that can be changed anytime by management. I know what you'll say. "Well if they do that, we'll just vote in a union" But by then it is too late. Maybe SkyWest pilots can thank Comair pilots for standing up to their management and maybe Comair pilots can thank SkyWest pilots for not helping PFT survive. Just remember, the most unified work force in the airline industry is management.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

I'll use simple words so you you might understand.

When you paid $12,000 for that 10k/yr FO position it caused irreparable long term to the bargaining position of regional pilots.






quote. "When you paid $12,000 for that 10k/yr FO position it caused IRREPARABLE LONG TERM TO THE BARGAINING POSITION OF REGIONAL PILOTS"


huh?

 

[Russ]

Swallowing aviator

Were you raising the bar when you wrote out that large check for your job years ago?

Or were you lowering it?

C'mon, address the question of your PFT. Have you blanked out writing the check. Your knees still dirty? Why do you condemn SkyWest yet not talk about your path? You could take the wind out of my sails by admitting what you did was wrong and helped get us where we are now. Go ahead....

Killing the industry before you ever entered it.

I guess I know why you never address PFT at clownair. Its indefensible. It has to be an embarrassment to you.

You always pass over it because you cant defend it.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

I'll use simple words so you you might understand.

When you paid $12,000 for that 10k/yr FO position it caused irreparable long term to the bargaining position of regional pilots.






quote. "When you paid $12,000 for that 10k/yr FO position it caused IRREPARABLE LONG TERM TO THE BARGAINING POSITION OF REGIONAL PILOTS"


huh?

"Harm"
I left out the word harm. Most folks that didn't PFT could probably figure out the missing word without assistance.
So here is the corrected version of the sentence:
When you paid $12,000 for that 10k/yr FO position it caused irreparable long term HARM to the bargaining position of regional pilots.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Dave,

I agree that PFT hasn't helped our profession, but neither is being non union! Yeah SkyWest has some great work rules. Work rules that can be changed anytime by management.

Has ALPA really helped regional pilots?
Did ALPA make a real attempt to stop PFT?
Did ALPA encourage bogus "flow-thru" agreements that provided furlough protection for mainline and resulted in many of our fellow regional pilots collecting unemployment?
Did ALPA encourage the US Air J4J protocol that throws the seniority system out the window?

Now here's some more questions to ponder:
Did non-union SkyWest require pilots to whore themselves out with PFT?
Has non-union SkyWest furloughed? Ever?
Have non-union SkyWest pilots been suckered into bogus "flow-thru" agreements?
Did non-union SkyWest pilots get to vote on whether they wanted to pursue expansion with US Air via the J4J protocol that throws seniority out the window? Did the non-union SkyWest pilot group reject the J4J protocol and US Air expansion by a wide margin?

You state in your post that "Yeah SkyWest has some great work rules. Work rules that can be changed anytime by management."

Do you have any idea how many times work rules are simply ignored by management at union carriers? Have you ever heard the expression "fly it then grieve it?" Are you aware that resolving grievances takes money and sometimes as long as a year or more? One union member made a post on this board claiming that they were having difficulty negotiating with management to get hotel phone numbers printed accurately in their bid packets. If there was a typo like that at your company couldn't you get it fixed with a phone call or two?

If there was a union that did a good job representing regional pilots I'd be the first one to sign a card. Let me know when you find one. ALPA does OK representing the majors which is where they make their money. If I was working for a major I'd be a happy dues paying member.

 

[Mookie]

Super Dave, Rogue, Russ, et al.,

We're all guilty of swallowing the hook and getting caught up in this stupid debate. Let's be above all of this, go out do our job, and let the Afellow's, Aviatrix's, and others just continue their miserable lives.

Mookie
Former Alpa member, and now proud to be SkyWest

 

[sleeve]

i'm rubber and your glue.........

we still make more money than you....

get a life, atleast Comair still "even after 9-11" (since thats the inevitable quote everybody is using to justify their caving in) was able to say hell no to concessions....

I personally know that over at chautaqua they were told that "if you take this pay, you (pilots) will get more aircraft" and guess what.. they took it so they could grow..whoopty do, my second year FO friend still can't afford his own apartment..and I have no sympathy for him..

But we said "no", we don't have any more orders after this year, and personally nobody really could give a rats as.s

sure it would be nice to upgrade, and if we could have gotten even 15 planes I would have upgraded...but atleast nobody is making fun of my contract, or snickering cause we gave in....it feels good to be able to know that in that van ride full of pilots to the hotel I won't be reheating Ramen..

With my second year pay I have a new bike, a new truck, a hot girlfriend and will be buying a house....and no my parents didn't help me with any of it...so the rest of you can shove it.

 

[AirBill]

With my second year pay I have a new bike, a new truck, a hot girlfriend and will be buying a house....and no my parents didn't help me with any of it...so the rest of you can shove it.

Who cares?

With my second-year CHQ pay, I am able to pay a mortgage on a house, build a brick patio in the back yard, buy an SUV and have a beautiful wife.

So what's your point?

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Has ALPA really helped regional pilots?
Did ALPA make a real attempt to stop PFT?
Did ALPA encourage bogus "flow-thru" agreements that provided furlough protection for mainline and resulted in many of our fellow regional pilots collecting unemployment?
Did ALPA encourage the US Air J4J protocol that throws the seniority system out the window?

Now here's some more questions to ponder:
Did non-union SkyWest require pilots to whore themselves out with PFT?
Has non-union SkyWest furloughed? Ever?
Have non-union SkyWest pilots been suckered into bogus "flow-thru" agreements?
Did non-union SkyWest pilots get to vote on whether they wanted to pursue expansion with US Air via the J4J protocol that throws seniority out the window? Did the non-union SkyWest pilot group reject the J4J protocol and US Air expansion by a wide margin?

You state in your post that "Yeah SkyWest has some great work rules. Work rules that can be changed anytime by management."

Do you have any idea how many times work rules are simply ignored by management at union carriers? Have you ever heard the expression "fly it then grieve it?" Are you aware that resolving grievances takes money and sometimes as long as a year or more? One union member made a post on this board claiming that they were having difficulty negotiating with management to get hotel phone numbers printed accurately in their bid packets. If there was a typo like that at your company couldn't you get it fixed with a phone call or two?

If there was a union that did a good job representing regional pilots I'd be the first one to sign a card. Let me know when you find one. ALPA does OK representing the majors which is where they make their money. If I was working for a major I'd be a happy dues paying member.

Well, as long as your able to under cut us after we said no to concessions is all that matters, right??

Your pilot group is pathetic.

 

[bvt1151]

Who cares?

With my second-year CHQ pay, I am able to pay a mortgage on a house, build a brick patio in the back yard, buy an SUV and have a beautiful wife.

How much did she cost?

 

[Russ]

A swallowing aviator

Still dont want to talk about paying for your job? Paying for ones job is a heck of a lot worse than anyone at SkyWest ever did by voting yes


Lets talk PFT and its effect on the industry. C'mon, sack up and tell us how it feels to write a check that big. I usually come away with a car when I write checks as large as you did. All you did was ruin the industry. I usually pity fools because they figure out the mistakes they make, you haven't come to grips yet.

A prostitute plain and simple swallowing aviator. Thats all you are.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Although I did not have to pay the required fee you reference, some did. It was what was required of them at the time. It did nothing to lower wages and quality of life. I fail to see your point.

Now what you people have done HAS contributed to the lowering of wages and quality of life. At a time when we are holding the line, Skywhore, Mesa, Chitaco all bent over and took it up the arss for a chance to get the aircraft we would of gotten if we had taken concessions.

This is a fact. You people are pathetic. Pathetic whores.

 

[jbDC9]

Now what you people have done HAS contributed to the lowering of wages and quality of life. At a time when we are holding the line, Skywhore, Mesa, Chitaco all bent over and took it up the arss for a chance to get the aircraft we would of gotten if we had taken concessions.

This is a fact. You people are pathetic. Pathetic whores.

Nice, very nice.

Dude, do us all a favor and just shut the fukc up already. Stop the friggin' finger pointing and name calling already, it's tired and been done to death. I'm sure you're as big a backstabbing whore (as you so joyfully call everyone else) as any other pilot out there. Why don't you go beat your wife and kids or something, or maybe your dog, get rid of some of that aggression. It might make you feel better.

You sound like a prissy, whiny little bitch... must be a real pleasure to fly with a dildo like you.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Settle down little fella.

I call it as I see it. If you don't like what I say, thats fine.
I suppose you don't disagree with me, you seem to just not like the way I present it. And...that's ok....

 

[Russ]

Swallowing aviator

You were the one in a million that didn't have to pay while everyone around you did. I believe that about as much as I believe Bill Clinton on any given issue. I suppose I cant blame you, swallowing seman cant be one of your prouder accomplishments. Were you wearing a blue dress the day you swallowed, rather signed the PAY FOR TRAINING contract? I cant imagine anything more embarrassing for a wannabe professional pilot. Have to pay to sit in the right seat and pull gear. Not good enough to do it the proper way, barely good enough to do it by going to the clownair flight academy and dropping coin.

You really are less than informed if you think the path you, sorry everyone else at clownair took didn't hurt the industry.

You talk of holding the line. PFT hardly seems like holding the line.
You wouldn't have made it to the aircraft if you hadn't paid.
You will never have the satisfaction of knowing you did it the right way, and you only get one shot at it.

Done with you. Head back to the brothel from where you came from.

PS, were you the putz in the SLC lounge the other day changing your jepps, taking up way to much room singing to yourself?

 

[P38JLightning]

PFT debate

Russ,

When did Comair start PFT? I'm not sure, but I think in the early to mid 90's. It was discontinued sometime in 98 or 99. So you have a 5 to 10 year (at the most) window of PFT at an almost 30 year old airline.

Now I disagree with PFT as much as you do. I didn't do it, and gripe about those who did just like you do. But what's worse, whoring yourself for 10 grand once to get hired, or whoring yourself 10 grand a year, year after year?

That's what you guys did with that pathetic 99 seat and under crap. IF you (heavens forbid) do get more 70's and/or 90's or "99 seaters" the captains flying them will be "PFT-ing" year after year after year.

What's the difference?

Oh yeah, I forgot, you guys are going to get industry leading rates soon after your 18 month "concessions just to get 'em" is over.

Boy, we'll have eggs on our faces then, I tell ya what.

 

[Russ]

P38
The time frame that AFA came from was PFT.

I agree with you about pay issues. I wish we collectively hadn't agreed to it. It really wouldn't have mattered, management simply would have imposed it. I wish they would have so we could see the other side. But alas, in the end one can only be responsible for ones self. I opposed it then as I do now. Like I said, responsible for ones self, and not buying the job.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Swallowing aviator

You were the one in a million that didn't have to pay while everyone around you did. I believe that about as much as I believe Bill Clinton on any given issue. I suppose I cant blame you, swallowing seman cant be one of your prouder accomplishments. Were you wearing a blue dress the day you swallowed, rather signed the PAY FOR TRAINING contract? I cant imagine anything more embarrassing for a wannabe professional pilot. Have to pay to sit in the right seat and pull gear. Not good enough to do it the proper way, barely good enough to do it by going to the clownair flight academy and dropping coin.

You really are less than informed if you think the path you, sorry everyone else at clownair took didn't hurt the industry.

You talk of holding the line. PFT hardly seems like holding the line.
You wouldn't have made it to the aircraft if you hadn't paid.
You will never have the satisfaction of knowing you did it the right way, and you only get one shot at it.

Done with you. Head back to the brothel from where you came from.

PS, were you the putz in the SLC lounge the other day changing your jepps, taking up way to much room singing to yourself?

I wonder if you realize just how stupid you sound. Because it is none of your business, I will not explain the reasons I did not have to pay the fee. I have explained it on this board already.

Like others have said, PFT did nothing to hurt our pay. Agreeing to be a Skywhore just advanced the race to the bottom.

You sure talk about male semon a lot. Are you Gay? Just wondering. If you are, thats your thing dude. I don't think I EVER ponder on males and semon like you do.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

PFT Again

There were many airlines such as Piedmont, Allegheny, Mesa, and American Eagle that did not require PFT in the mid-90s.

There were also dozens of freight companies flying non-sched, single pilot night-frieght in everything from Grumman Cheetas to Beech Bonanzas and Barons to 402s. These companies hired literally hundreds of pilots. They flew approaches to minimums in all kinds of weather, gained valuable experience, and learned real-world decision making skills.

There were many, MANY ways to make a living flying and to continue to build quality experience without writing that check.

The road between Seminole and RJ should not have been bridged in gold -- but rather by hard work and real-world experience.

Everyone had a choice.