COMAIR in Atlanta....

[bvt1151]

Your thoughts, captainv, represent only what you've heard, not what's really going on behind the scenes. If things were just as you said they were, then this would all be very black and white. However they're not. This isn't a case of an outsider being able to look at the situation unjaded and make a fair judgement. This is a case of an outsider who doesn't understand exactly whats happening.

I'll repeat what I asked in my last post: Why don't the Delta pilots negotiate with management to get their furloughs working again? Is the Delta MEC willing to give on an issue to negotiate the Comair/furlough issues? Or would he rather let the Comair pilots compromise their issues with Comair management as a "favor" to the Delta pilots? If they don't agree, then just "go public" and blame the Comair pilots for the Delta furlough problem. Either way he can always tell the furloughs "we did 'all' we could do." Rather brilliant way to keep from compromising with mgmt and to avoid the issue of furloughs...assuming the furloughs don't figure it out.

What, besides threatening Comair pilots, are the Delta pilots doing to get their furloughs working again? This question is not rhetorical. I'm interested in an answer.


In the interest of ending the debate whether or not Comair was threatened, I've included Webster's theories on the subject.
threat (-et)n announcement of what the speaker intends to do if his orders or wishes are not complied with.
Example, "If you don't pressure management into hiring Delta furloughs without requiring them to resign their number, we will see to it that Comair pilots do not get hired at Delta."

 

[captainv]

bvt1151,

>Your thoughts, captainv, represent only what you've heard, not what's really going on behind the scenes.

fair enough, it's either what i've heard, or me trying to apply logic to what i can see for myself. for example, i know for a fact we are adding airplanes and pilots at Comair. anyone can see that. how are the Delta guys trying to restrict us on the 50-seater? (an issue surplus1 raised)

also, how would i know what's going on behind the scenes? the union website has a letter from J.C. Lawson to the Delta MEC, but for some reason it won't open.... i get an error message. also, we want to have a seat at the table if the Delta MEC were to negotiate something that would negatively affect us. well sure, that makes sense. of course that would mean we give the Delta MEC a seat at the table if we were to decide something that would negatively affect the Delta pilots.

on that, the furloughs don't count - no matter where you stand on this, at this time we treat them the same as we treat all other furloughees. they all have to give up their senority numbers. also, you could even argue that our adding planes/routes while Delta cuts planes/routes doesn't count either - that decision was not made by our MEC or our mgt. It was made by Delta mgt.

you say that i'm "an outsider who doesn't understand exactly what's happening." well, obviously i'm not behind the scenes, whatever that means. why am i an outsider? because i'm new? just because i don't share your views or see the evidence supporting them doesn't mean i won't if you were to point it out to me. but there's a difference between opnions and facts. i see lots of opinions on this board (my own included). i'll let the facts sway me.

>I'll repeat what I asked in my last post: Why don't the Delta pilots negotiate with management to get their furloughs working again?

i'd submit that i'm the wrong person to ask. i spend most of my time figuring out what's going on in my own pilot group. perhaps they are. any comments from Delta pilots on this? published reports say they're considering concessions, i know they opposed the force majeure and won, only to have another war break out. i'm sure they're fighting that too. gen. lee insists they're asking for 70-seaters, beyond what we're allocated to get. but all this is from a true outsider's perspective.

>>Is the Delta MEC willing to give on an issue to negotiate the Comair/furlough issues? Or would he rather let the Comair pilots compromise their issues with Comair management as a "favor" to the Delta pilots? If they don't agree, then just "go public" and blame the Comair pilots for the Delta furlough problem. Either way he can always tell the furloughs "we did 'all' we could do." Rather brilliant way to keep from compromising with mgmt and to avoid the issue of furloughs...assuming the furloughs don't figure it out.

>>What, besides threatening Comair pilots, are the Delta pilots doing to get their furloughs working again? This question is not rhetorical. I'm interested in an answer.

if you're asking me to tell you what the Delta MEC is willing to do about the furloughees, again, i'm the wrong person to ask. i gave you my opinion on what they might be doing, but i'm just guessing.

>>In the interest of ending the debate whether or not Comair was threatened, I've included Webster's theories on the subject.
threat (-et)n announcement of what the speaker intends to do if his orders or wishes are not complied with.
Example, "If you don't pressure management into hiring Delta furloughs without requiring them to resign their number, we will see to it that Comair pilots do not get hired at Delta."

well, certainly that's the view of some, if not many, Delta pilots. we won't know if that's true until they start hiring. until then, it's just a threat.

this raises another question central to most of these issues. what exactly happened at the meeting between our MEC and the Delta MEC? Did Delta try to bully us, threatening to blackball our pilots? Did we demand one list as a condition? according to posts on this board, the Delta MEC swears to his pilots that we attacked him. Our MEC swears to us that the Delta MEC ambushed him. someone isn't telling the truth, and i for one would like to know what happened. if i simply put faith in my own MEC, and Delta pilots do the same, we'll just point fingers at each other and go round in circles like this forever. i'd rather know really happened, so i can be confident that my MEC has earned my faith.

we might find out that one of the MEC's has been lying, and if so, he could be recalled. or we might find out that what was discussed in the meeting has been spun and blown completely out of proportion, which might help us all settle down a little.

a few other thoughts. most younger guys, myself included, would like to go on to fly for the majors, if the opportunity should exsist when we have competitive numbers. at this exact moment, Delta and Airtran would be at the top of my list, basically since i live in Atlanta. if the opportunity doesn't exist at any time in the next 30 years, so be it. i'll be happy to stay at Comair. as i've said before, it's a great airline, with great people. i love it here.

still. i would prefer the door at Delta be open, not shut in my face in retribution for a decision i had no input on. (speaking of which, why not vote on it? then we'd know where we all stand on the issue) that doesn't mean i only want to fly for Delta, and it doesn't mean they'd hire me anyway. i'd just like a shot. who knows, in 5-10 years or whenever the furloughs are all back and the majors start hiring again, i'll want to work for one of the top airlines. maybe it'll be Delta, maybe it'll be Southwest, maybe JetBlue, who knows?

Captainv

 

[Bill Mostellar]

What ... are the Delta pilots doing to get their furloughs working again? This question is not rhetorical. I'm interested in an answer.

For starters, we're making their COBRA payments so they can continue with the same level of medical care they had before the furlough. You would be amazed at the number of employers who won't touch a furloughed pilot - not because of their ability, but because of their possibility of recall. Many of the families would be forced into very difficult positions without this safety DALPA has provided.

Second, we're not destroying the profession they worked hard to obtain - at least not yet. Each of us is in this profession for personal, specific reasons. We'll see what happens when the MEC responds to management's request.

I wish you success!

 

[surplus1]

I like your post.

For starters, we're making their COBRA payments so they can continue with the same level of medical care they had before the furlough. You would be amazed at the number of employers who won't touch a furloughed pilot - not because of their ability, but because of their possibility of recall. Many of the families would be forced into very difficult positions without this safety DALPA has provided.

What you are doing with respect to the COBRA payments for your fourloughed pilots is admirable, should be respected and emulated where applicable. It is one of the "the right things" to do. A "well done" to the Delta pilot group is deserved and I happily add my kudos.

You are very correct in saying that very many (I would say most)employers will not touch a furloughed pilot because of the possibility of recall. This is true. It is also not new and is not unique to pilots, and has been present in all previous rounds of furloughs in the airline business. It is difficult for an employer to be eager to hire an individual who makes it known before the fact that he/she has no true interest in working for that company but is using it as a stop-gap or means to go (or return) elsewhere. In your interview with Delta, had you stated your preference for working at United, American or AirTran, I doubt seriously that you would have received a job offer.

Perhaps therefore, Comair management should not be quite so villified for its decision to go with the majority. By the same token the Comair pilot group, which does not control hiring policy at Comair, should not be blamed for management's decisions.

Second, we're not destroying the profession they worked hard to obtain - at least not yet. Each of us is in this profession for personal, specific reasons. We'll see what happens when the MEC responds to management's request.

I wish you success!

Granted you are not destroying the profession. I do hope there is no implication that we might be. In that we share the very same profession, it makes no sense that either of us should seek to destroy it. I am sure that your MEC will do its best to safeguard the achievements of Delta pilots in the upcoming round of concessionary bargaining. I further hope that your MEC will not seek to use the careers of Comair pilots as one of the tools with which it may bargain. A change in that policy, on the part of your MEC, would go a long way to mending the fences.

I too wish you success as well as the speedy recall of all your furloughed associates.

 

[bvt1151]

I agree the cobra payments are necessary to the furloughs, and are one of the most fundamental protections the union can offer. You are right Mr. Mostellar, and I don't want you to think I'm disagreeing with you, because I appreciate the reply to my question. However, I'm interested in DALPA's direct actions to actively get the furloughs back into the cockpit. Paying for benefits only helps sustain a furlough, and is not an active attempt to return the furlough to work.

Is there anything from the DALPA website, or VARS, or other union publications that explains what other options they are looking at to return their furloughs to work? Of course, being at Comair, I only hear of the one thing they've tried to do (approach Comair).

 

[Bill Mostellar]

Is there anything from the DALPA website, or VARS, or other union publications that explains what other options they are looking at to return their furloughs to work? Of course, being at Comair, I only hear of the one thing they've tried to do (approach Comair).

I doubt anything will be published by the MEC until membership ratification is required; it's just not good strategy to reveal that much information to your/our advesary - management. We'll just have to trust the MEC.

However, I suspect they're going to draw a line in the sand at 70 seats. What we offer in return is anyone's guess.

I wish you success!

 

[captainv]

surplus1, bvt1151,

any response to my last post? again, don't take those questions as proof of what i believe, i'm just trying to bring up logical counterpoints to issues you've raised, esp. on Delta/ALPA restricting use of the RJs.

Respectfully,
Captainv

 

[bvt1151]

captainv,

much faith has been placed in our MEC because we have been around long enough to see what he can do for the Comair pilots. You have not, so you have no faith in our MEC. That is why you will understand when you have been around Comair for a while.

As far as the 70-seaters are concerned, it will never happen the way it is being proposed. Either Delta will have all of the 70-seaters or they'll have none. Let me explain why:
Let's say Delta pilots receive the rest of the 70-seater aircraft. That creates a situation where two pilot groups, under the same management, and under the same representative union are flying the same "craft and class" of aircraft. Throw in Delta pilots (furloughs) flying Comair aircraft, and that just makes the situation worse. Comair/ASA pilots have a right to ask for PID, which we all know will never ever be seen in our lifetime. So, how does Delta (or DALPA) rectify the situation and prevent the nmb from granting PID? They have to destroy one of the criteria...the aircraft of the same craft and class. This means that no longer will Comair/ASA pilots AND[/i} Delta pilots be flying the same aircraft. So what happens to the 70-seaters? You can be sure ALPA will fight to obtain all 70-seaters on Delta property (which in itself proposes a huge conflict of interest, since ALPA is supposed to represent the Comair pilot's best interests too...but that's a different post). Since everybody is convinced Delta will not be able to operate the 70-seaters as efficiently as Comair, there will be pressure from management to return the 70's to Comair. Where they go will probably be a battle between DALPA and Delta management, with the "little" Comair pilots screaming on the sides. So what is the risk of both groups flying the 70-seaters?...One of them is going to have aircraft pulled out from under them. In any case, Comair has no voice in any of these arguments.

ALPA has never hesitated to use "force maneure" over its own pilots to further its own national interests. Just look at the Eagle/AMR situation. They screwed over their own pilots for the AMR pilots who they don't even represent! Could it be an effort to woo AMR from APA? One could only speculate. If you're looking for facts, I'd suggest looking up:

Trans World Airlines/Ozark Airlines, 14 NMB 218 (1987)

MESA AIRLINES, INC/CCAIR, INC/AIR MIDWEST, 29 NMB 359 (2002).

Trans World Airlines/American Airlines, 29 NMB 201 (2002).

I'd also suggest looking into the Eagle/AMR situation. Its very easy to relate past situations there, with current situations at Comair. Keep following the path and see where it leaves Comair.

What, besides threatening Comair pilots, are the Delta pilots doing to get their furloughs working again? This question is not rhetorical. I'm interested in an answer.

I wasn't looking for an answer from you, captainv. That was some bad paragraph structure on my part. However, before you pick sides, which although you deny, seems clear you have, its important to ask yourself that question. The only answer I've gotten is "we're not at liberty to say." Before we are asked to compromise with our management for pilots who don't even belong to our group, I'd at least like to know DALPA is trying other avenues. In the letter from the Comair MEC to the Delta MEC, Lawson lists three issues; only one of which would be a sufficient compensation for the concessions we would have to give up while working with management to get Delta furloughs here. Those three things were:
1.Relax scope
2. Negotiate Delta Brand Scope language that defines flying to be performed solely by Delta, Comair, and ASA pilots.
3. Negotiate a plan for future integration seniority lists.

(These have been summarized, however you can find the entire letter on Comair's ALPA website. I haven't had any trouble opening it, but I'd contact the webmaster if you are.)

When the DALPA MEC left the meeting, it was a clear statement that all of these items (not collectively) were more important than returning his furloughs to work.

I'll repeat what I've said before, when you've been at Comair long enough to see the trends, and have faith in the people around you, you'll understand our point of view. Unfortunately by that time, you (we) may be out of a job. Frankly the greatest threat to our job security isn't the economy, nor the threat of terrorism. The greatest threat to our job security comes from pilots within our very own company and union.

Fact is there are more Delta pilots who pay more money to ALPA than Comair pilots. When there is a dispute between the two, who do you think the union is going to support? That is why the Comair pilots are fighting to make the decisions concerning the Comair pilots future.

 

[Bill Mostellar]

In your interview with Delta, had you stated your preference for working at United, American...I doubt seriously that you would have received a job offer.

Many of those hired received offers from more than one major. Plato and his team understood seniority very well and were
typically skeptical of anyone who was adamant about one major vs. another.

Perhaps therefore, Comair management should not be quite so villified for its decision to go with the majority. By the same token the Comair pilot group, which does not control hiring policy at Comair, should not be blamed for management's decisions.

The Comair MEC certainly doesn't decide who's hired, but it did make it's position clear to management:

At its October meeting, the MEC passed a resolution directing the MEC Chairman to meet with the Comair MEC to pursue a reciprocal preferential hiring policy for furloughed Delta pilots at Comair and for Comair pilots at Delta. This week, MEC Chairman Capt. Will Buergey met with the Comair MEC Chairman in Cincinnati to discuss this issue further. The Comair MEC Chairman stated that his MEC administration does not support the hiring of furloughed Delta pilots at Comair. ASA management, at the ASA MEC’s request, has already hired furloughed Delta pilots, who start at the bottom of the airline’s seniority list and retain their recall rights at Delta.
DALPA Code A Phone, December 5, 2002

Granted you are not destroying the profession. I do hope there is no implication that we might be.

It's not an implication. The elimination of Scope will certainly destroy the profession.

In that we share the very same profession, it makes no sense that either of us should seek to destroy it....I further hope that your MEC will not seek to use the careers of Comair pilots as one of the tools with which it may bargain. A change in that policy, on the part of your MEC, would go a long way to mending the fences.

The key difference is that ALL Delta flying (Mainline, Express, Song, ASA, Comair, Skywest, etc.) falls under the scope provisions of Mainline.

I don't know that there will be 'concessionary bargaining' in the near term. If there is, your careers will more likely be used by managment to bargain against us.

I too wish you success as well as the speedy recall of all your furloughed associates.

Thanks.

 

[bvt1151]

In reply to Mr. Mostellar:

The elimination of Scope will certainly destroy the profession.

Thats a very strong statement! It does, however, explain the attitudes of the Delta pilots towards the Connection pilots. Without your intervention (scope), we would ruin the profession.

Starting to see what really makes DALPA tick, captainv?

 

[9rj9]

More Comair in ALT

Rumor has it, ATL crew base early 2004.
ATLANTA, May 22 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Delta Connection will offer additional daily nonstop jet flights in July between Delta Air Lines' (NYSE: DAL - News) hub in Atlanta and the cities of Akron-Canton and Cleveland, Ohio; Houston and Milwaukee. Delta Connection carrier Comair will operate one additional round-trip flight each between Atlanta and Cleveland, Milwaukee and Houston Hobby Airport effective July 1, and to Akron-Canton beginning July 14. The flights will be operated with the Bombardier CRJ regional jet.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

In reply to Mr. Mostellar:



Thats a very strong statement! It does, however, explain the attitudes of the Delta pilots towards the Connection pilots. Without your intervention (scope), we would ruin the profession.

Starting to see what really makes DALPA tick, captainv?

Bvt,

You wouldn't be around to ruin the profession.

Without scope, we would ALL be replaced with the cheapest labor. You are not immune.


As to the rest of this discussion, most of the facts are not in dispute. cmr mgt does control the hiring. They have made a rule that all pilots must resign seniority numbers. They have also expressed a willingness to change the rule, if it did not cause problems witht the cmr pilot group. The cmr mec was unwilling to make such an assurance, even though it would have cost them nothing.

As for me, I fail to see the problem. jc lawson and his cronies have made it clear that they do not support the idea of cmr pilots and Delta pilots sharing a cockpit.

Who are we to ignore his wishes?

 

[DDpaysoff]

Bvt, is right on the three issues we asked for. It is there in writing in the crew room and in my mailbox. You people at DALPA have a chance to do this right. ALL DAL flying to be done my mainline w/ integration of ASA and CMR. We can eliminate scrubs like **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**aqua, skyw and aca. Then we will ask mgmt to change policy, and you left the table.
Don't try to pull a sales job on this pilot group. I think we know that doesn't work. This whole thing about structuring the integration so your new hire military buddies don't have to fly the rj is rediculous. You are willing to negotiate for people who are not even on your list but, not for pilots that are owned by the same comany? That tells me enough, and I have heard that from several of DAL pilots. You can sit there and believe when one of your managers come in the crew room and says that comair believes it is a crm issue to hire DAL pilots, but I see it in writing from our MEC. You chose to leave the table. I am sorry for your furloughed brothers and I can assure you that we are doing all we can to get them back as soon as possible by getting DAL back in the black. I am sure our brothers at ASA, who we will get even closer with in the future, are doing the same thing.

 

[bvt1151]

9rj9,

thanx for returning the thread to its origional topic (or at least trying to). I guess we all got caught in the flame bait.

Mr. Mostellar:

They(cmr mgmt) have also expressed a willingness to change the rule, if it did not cause problems witht the cmr pilot group. The cmr mec was unwilling to make such an assurance, even though it would have cost them nothing.

What information do you have to substantiate that sentence? Comair management has never expressed a willingness to change their policy, unless something was negotiated in return. Comair has been asked to negotiate, not Delta.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

What information do you have to substantiate that sentence? Comair management has never expressed a willingness to change their policy, unless something was negotiated in return. Comair has been asked to negotiate, not Delta.

Please reference the comments made by Fred Buttrell in the ATL pilots lounge in a roadshow attended by himself and Fred Reid. There, he stated that they would love to hire furloughed Delta pilots, but were concerned about "CRM issues."

While many like to post that it is mgt's decision, and I agree with them, one cannot disregard the effect of the cmr pilot group's wishes. Furthermore, if everyone is so convinced that it is only mgt's decision, why not issue a meaningless statement in support of the hiring? It would cost nothing, affect nothing (according to some) and result in not only the support of the Delta pilots for the hiring of cmr pilots at Delta, but also some goodwill between the pilot groups.

Apparently, the cost of a stamp is too dear a price to help a handful of unemployed pilots.

It is shameful, and for the cmr pilots to expect that their silence (and compliance) will be overlooked by the Delta pilots is hopelessly naive.