COMAIR in Atlanta....

[surplus1]

To Captainv Part 2 of 3

Besides that, it happens that the Delta pilots are the ONLY airline pilots that constantly remind Comair pilots of how much they "gave" and how much they "helped". They make it sound as if their "giving" and their "helping", such as it was, created an obligation to them and them alone, that surpasses our obligations to all the other pilot groups that gave and helped and who, by the way, never remind us of the fact. Sorry my friend, but that's extremely tacky. I don't blame every Delta pilot for doing that because every Delta pilot is not doing that, but enough of them are to make it quite clear that is their collective thought process. It is how they think. The American pilots have a lot of folks on furlough too and so do the UAL pilots. USAirways has more than anyone else does. How come none of them are reminding us of how much they helped, how much they gave, how much we "owe them", and demanding preferential treatment. How come? My guess is that if the Comair leadership had known (during our strike) that the mandatory assessments paid by Delta pilots and the donations "given" by a handful (out of 10,000) of Delta pilots would later be used in an effort to buy influence with the Comair MEC, they would probably have been told to keep their money.

They also remind us constantly that "they didn't fly struck work." Well, neither did anyone else. Is that supposed to be "special"? Based on what they say now, it is pretty evident that they didn't fly struck work because they didn't want to be called Scabs. It had nothing to do with wanting to "help" us. When you "help" somebody out of good will, you don't remind him or her all the time and you don't call it "help" when in fact you are merely fulfilling an obligation or covering your own a$$. Maybe you think what the Delta pilots are saying is "cool" Captainv, but I don't. I say again, I think it's tacky and cheap (that's what I can write on here. If you could read my mind you'd know what I really think of it.).

I'm sorry about your personal friend Captainv and yes it does "suck", but as you yourself point out, that is the business we're all in. You take your chances and hope that you make the right choices. Sometimes you do and other times you get furloughed; still other times your airline goes out of business completely. We should always regret when that happens to anyone and I do. I've been furloughed myself and I've had more than one airline go out of business and pull the rug from under me. I don't expect any special treatment because of it and I've never reminded any pilot group of how much I paid in assessments on their behalf over the years. I hope you won't do that either if it should ever happen to you. As for the level of their alleged support, that is also a matter of opinion. If you listen to them you might believe we could not have had a strike but for the "support" of the Delta pilots. They can believe that if they so choose, but I know different and I think it's laughable and unadulterated BS. They did what was required of them and, with rare individual exception, nothing more. No medal; no "T"-shirt.


The union dues and what they are is not important. That's not why I wrote to you at all, it just gave me a chance to say something. What bothers me was that fact that you appear to support a pilot from another airline in preference to your fellow pilots from your own airline who make up your MEC, and many hundreds more who agree with our MEC and support it.

I have no problem whatever with you or any other Comair pilot that disagrees with our MEC. That is not only your right, it is your responsibility whenever you feel that your MEC is not acting in the interests of Comair pilots. Let me say that again so that it is absolutely clear -- not acting in the interests of Comair pilots. NOT Delta pilots, Comair pilots.

When you decide to disagree with your MEC, (which I have often done myself) it should be after you have all the facts and you clearly understand why the MEC made a particular decision. IMO, your decision should not be based on political rhetoric from a bunch of outsiders, especially Delta pilots whose interests are in direct conflict with ours. If you still disagree, then by all means you should voice that opinion. With all due respect, in this case I do not think you have all the facts, neither do you appear to understand fully the reasons for our MEC's decision. I urge you to consult with the members of our MEC and ask them why they made that decision. I am confident they will tell you and explain it to the best of their ability. Have you done that? When things are not crystal clear to you, as a Comair pilot, which is what you are, I would expect you to put greater trust in your fellow Comair pilots than you do in the pilots of another airline. Especially when the best interests of that airline's pilots is in direct conflict with the best interests of your own pilot group. Your real "brothers" are Comair pilots first and foremost. Comair pilots are the one's who will give their all to support and help you when the chips are down. If you don't learn anything else while you're here, please learn that.

I don't expect you to take my word for anything, sir. As a matter of fact I don't want you to do that and it would upset me just as much, if not more, if you did. Comair pilots are not "yes men". You are one of us now, and I sure don't want you to become a "yes" man. I certainly don't have all the answers Captainv and I never will. Yes, I know you're "new" and I'm not "new" but, I once was new and I haven't forgotten. That doesn't make me smarter than you are. I'm not a Delta pilot and I will never be, but guess what -- being a Delta pilot doesn't make them smarter than you or me either. What I would ask you to do is investigate and explore the evidence, whatever the issue may be. That way you will find your own answers to the questions. I'm willing to bet there will be little, if any, disagreement between us once you do and you really understand what is happening here.

Continued in Part 3

 

[surplus1]

To Captainv Part 3 of 3

I wish no harm to any Delta pilot and I would like to see all of the furloughed pilots recalled as soon as possible. However, if for some reason I should have to choose between the welfare of Comair pilots and the welfare of Delta pilots, I do not mind telling you and the world that I will choose Comair pilots first, seven days a week and twice on Sunday. If you don't realize that Delta pilots will choose their own best interests ahead of ours, think again please.

I gathered that you were not here during the strike. That doesn't matter to me, you are still a Comair pilot, just like those of us that were here. The disagreements and dispute between the Delta pilot group and the Comair pilot group are not related to our strike. The strike resulted from a dispute with the management of Delta Air Lines and the management of Comair. It had nothing to do with the Delta pilots and our disputes with them do not involve any type of retribution (your term) for what happened during the strike. It has nothing to do with that.

The dispute is directly related to the past and present effort of the Delta MEC, supported by a majority of Delta pilots, to take away our CL65-700s and, if they can't do that, to limit the number that we can operate. Further, to limit our flying in the CL65-100/200 and stop our growth. Those activities on the part of the Delta MEC began long before there was any strike. They continued during the strike and they continue at this very moment.

Those activities on the part of the Delta MEC are injurious to the well being of EVERY Comair pilot over the term of his/her entire career at Comair. At the very moment that they are demanding (and yes they did both demand and threaten) preferential treatment for their furloughed pilots from our MEC, their MEC is actively engaged in attempting to damage or restrict the careers of every Comair pilot on the property. In exchange for that we should bend over to get them hired at Comair in preference to others? Why in Gods name would we want to do that? Let's call a spade a spade. It is bad enough to have an enemy. Having an enemy within is far worse.

Why should we want to facilitate the hiring of potentially hundreds of pilots from another airline, none of whom have the slightest desire to be Comair pilots, and who will never become Comair pilots, when that very group has made it perfectly clear that it they could, they would transfer all our best aircraft to themselves and leave us with as little as they can of the remainder? Why should we favor a group whose activities, if successful, would cause our fellow Comair pilots to be downgraded or perhaps be furloughed? Why should we favor a pilot group whose activities, if successful, would prevent the future promotion and upgrade of potentially hundreds of Comair pilots for the foreseeable future? These are people that we should help to get on our seniority list, because they have a problem, when they are the same people that have repeatedly told us (when they did not have a problem) that we were not good enough to be on the bottom of their seniority list? I hope you're kidding me.

The General and his associates tell us in their posts that we are "using their furloughed pilots as bargaining chips" and that's dirty. Well I don't think we're doing that at all. We are not bargaining with their Company or with our Company against them. However, I know that their MEC has been using our entire pilot group as a "bargaining chip" in their direct negotiations, with their company, for years and they are still doing it at this very moment. On top of that, they are using the labor union that WE pay to represent our interests against us, and that labor union is aiding and abetting them in that activity. That is not just my opinion, it is fact. The evidence is there for anyone that takes his head out of the sand long enough to see.

According to them, it is right for them to use all or any Delta Connection group as bargaining chips to achieve their objectives, it is right for them to try to take from us whatever they can, it is right for them to stop our growth, it is right for them and their MEC to do to us or with us, whatever they please, if they please, and whenever they please and its is absolutely wrong for us to do anything at all with which they might not agree or to attempt to protect our own interests. Hogwash! Any Comair pilot or ASA pilot that buys that crap is a fool. If anyone believes that will get you a job or a number at Delta Air Lines you have a totally unrealistic perspective and you're letting yourself be played for a sucker..

Take a good look at what is happening to the pilots of American Eagle right now, and recognize that if the Delta pilots could do that to us tomorrow, they would do it in a heartbeat, without the slightest regret or concern for what might happen to any Comair pilot or any ASA pilot. They have been actively attempting it for several years and it is no secret. They talk of it openly and proudly. It happens that I think that’s "dirty" too and a lot more dirty that us merely saying that we are not going to fight to make our Company change its hiring policy. We have not asked our Company not to hire furloughed Delta pilots. We have simply declined to ask our Company to make a special exception for Delta pilots that furloughed pilots from other airlines do not get.

If they aren't happy with that it's just too bad. We're not happy with what they are doing either. When the Delta MEC is ready to stop the activities that are injurious to Comair pilots, that will be the time to talk about doing them favors, not before. Favors are exchanged for favors in the world of business and this is business.

Do I know how to "fix" it? No, I do not. I used to have some ideas but not any more. With the Delta pilot group, it's their way or the highway. That doesn't work with me and, in my opinion, it doesn't work for Comair pilots. If we can fix anything, it's not going to be their way. It has to be a jointly agreed way. This is not a one way street and the sooner they figure that out, the better it will be for everyone concerned. It is time for Comair pilots to stop rolling over and pretending that those folks like us. They don't and they have made it quite clear. You are not paranoid when someone has made it clear that he intends to shaft you and is actively engaged in the process.

Maybe you and some other Comair pilots are too new to realize that they have been actively trying to take from us for at least 9 consecutive years. It is high time we protect our own interests to the extent that we are able. I'm sorry that the furloughed are out of work and I know that they didn't start this dispute, but many of them are very willing participants. It is not our MEC that they need to talk to or about, it's their own MEC.

Those are my opinions and you do not have to agree with them. You asked for my reasons and I have given them. If you see something better than Comair in your future, I have no argument with that and would help you to get whatever you might want if I could. However, while you are a Comair pilot, I would hope that you will stand with your brothers and not with those that seek to harm them. .

Respectfully,
Surplus1

 

[embdrvr]

Good job Surplus!

Surplus,
Beautiful well written eloquent series of posts. Thanks for putting all the time and effort in. Hopefully some folks will take what you said to heart because it rings true.

 

[General Lee]

Surplus1,

Man alive, you really do hold a grudge against "the Delta pilot group" in general. I like your continuing diatribe of the history of all of this. It makes interesting reading, especially when I have insomnia. Now wait a second, I am not "slamming you" or being a Delta pilot who is "beating down on the poor Comair pilot" like your article suggests. We do not have a continuing campaign to "keep the Comair pilots below the rest of us" or whatever. You are obviously seeing things that the rest of us don't. Here is my take:

#1---on your Idea that your company can keep the "resign your senority number " policy. Well, that is your policy. When Fred Reid and Fred Butrell talked to us in the ATL crew lounge a week or so ago, they both said that it was your policy and up to your management (MEC) to decide---they weren't going to force it on you. If you decide to uphold that policy (and ASA--your sister airline that is your mirror image---changed theirs), then that is a direct slap into our furloughs faces, pure and simple. If ASA could do it, why wouldn't you? Upholding history? That is stupid. I guess we cannot believe Fred Reid and Fred Butrell now? They said it was a CRM problem. Your leaders said that. I am not making this up, and I am not trying to divide the groups---they said that. Who are we supposed to believe here? Others keep saying we are drinking the koolaid----well I would like to see a memo that states otherwise.

#2---Our MEC Chair is ruining it for everyone. After 9-11 and the subsequennt announcement to furlough 400 pilots on November 1st of 2001, our MEC started to look for options for our furloughs. It is my understanding that he met with ASA's chair and Comair's chairman, and Comair's chairman wanted things in return for their help---like the elimination of 70 seater restrictions etc. Did that happen or not? Answer the question. That would amount to, "We will help you and your poor furloughs (who probably wrote checks for you during your strike---like the other pilot groups...) if we win out in the process." That is hostage taking. Did your MEC chair ask for something in return when we were in need---like you during your strike????

#3---We will not hire Comair pilots when hiring resumes. I did not say that exactly. I did say that your pilot group is being catagorized as an unhelpful one as a whole because of your company's refusal to drop your senority number issue. Most of our pilots think that is not helpful, and therefore think, "Well, we won't hire them then...!" I have heard that from a lot of our pilots, and there is atleast one pilot (usually a retired one) in the hiring interview, along with an HR person. That doesn't mean that a Comair pilot will never be hired again, it just means that the retired pilot may have his/her own ideas before the person already sits down. It certainly won't help. A lot of our pilots are very protective of our own, and that makes sense, right? To say that the offer to ASA and their pilots won't be honored is ridiculous. It is you spouting that off to the ASA pilots to try to win them over. I have a feeling a lot more (and I mean a lot more) ASA pilots will be hired at Delta than Comair pilots. Their help will be remembered----and the furloughed pilots will probably remind the interviewers. It is stupid to think that this will not affect future hiring, because it very well might. But, if you do not want to go to Delta anyway, well then ok for you.

#4 I never said we at Delta were the only ones to contribute to your strike fund. You really don't know me or what i was thinking during your strike. I actually wanted you to win, and I think all of us did. Leo and his gang outlasted you. I am not making fun of that, it is the truth. We know that all ALPA pilots were required to make contributions, but that doesn't mean our money didn't help you guys. We also did as much as legally possible, which means we didn't fly struck work and some of our guys walked your line. What else did you want us to do? We were being watched very closely and already had been told by Bush that there were going to be NO strikes during that Summer. We told management that we were not going to fly your routes etc---and we stuck to that. We thought you would win, but Leo stuck it out longer and that cost our company (and yours really...) over $250 million in lost revenue, and about $1 Billion total to revamp the airline and re-train everyone. Guess what? That has added to our big losses, and you claim your airline is only helping our bottom line......It also hurt it right before 9-11.

#5 Why would the Delta MEC chair only want infighting at Comair, and not ASA? That doesn't make sense. We think your senority resignation policy stinks, and we want to point that out so that your people may tell the MEC their feelings. This could affect them if they want to fly at Delta. I don't think our MEC chair wants infighting at Comair---just help for our 1310 furloughs. I don't think he is covering up for his lack of fighting on the No Furlough clause---did you or anyone else see 9-11 coming? Did you? That day really hurt this industry. We know that some of the furloughs may have been justified, but we argue on the time it is taking to bring back our furloughs. We needed some help for our most junior furloughs, help that would have put them back into a cockpit for awhile, providing you with good pilots. That didn't happen. Not one of our guys would have bumped any of your pilots, and the costs for training them would have been paid for ultimately by Delta--not you. Delta thought it was ok that ASA went along with it, but you did not. I am just telling you what has happened. No koolaid drinking here. We heard it from Fred Reid and Fred Butrell. Who should we have heard it from, Leo himself? To tell us that they are lying to us and not to believe them is wrong. They said it was ok if your management team agreed---and they didn't. That is a slap in the face.

#6--You say that most of our pilots did not contribute to your "family fund." How much have any of your pilots given to our furlough fund? I bet it is a lot less than we gave you. We actually (along with all of the other ALPA carriers) gave money, and you have given our guys NOTHING. Are your pilots more special than ours? A lot of our furloughs probably were your pilots. What a slap to them! What do you "owe" us? How about eliminating a stupid policy that ASA also eliminated and allowing our furloughed pilots to the bottom of your list to fly the crappiest trips and stay on reserve the longest? Wow, that sounds like that would create a lot of hardship for your pilots.....ASA didn't mind, but you guys can't.

#7---The merging of lists. We never said we did not want you on our lists---but your senior guys want the impossible----date of hire merge. Why would we not want a staple? Sure, looking back now you are probably thankful that you didn't get a staple, but no one knew 9-11 was coming. The staple idea would have provided you with a sure means to getting better pay, bigger equipment, and a better retirement. 9-11 has hurt everyone, but things will get better.

I think my diatribe has gone on for awhile here too. I guess I like to write just like Surplus1. He is also entitled to his opinion, and I respect him. But, captainv, don't always believe everyone in your company. The senior pilots have certain objectives too----like getting a date of hire number at Delta etc...and that hurts the chances of all of the mid-level and junior pilots over there. I do not have an agenda to divide Comair pilots----I just want you to see the whole picture, and my point of view. This is a forum.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[bvt1151]

Great post surplus.

For the benefit of the people who don't have time to read the three posts, I'll pick out the important points:

The fact is that the Comair MEC is NOT preventing Comair from hiring Delta pilots. They are not being hired by Comair because they choose of their own free will not to comply with Comair's requirements.

Yes, Delta does own Comair but the Delta pilots do not. The Delta pilots also do not own or control Comair pilots or the Comair MEC...

Delta management can tell Comair management what to do and when to do it at any time...Why is the Delta MEC asking the Comair MEC to secure the hiring of furloughed Delta pilots? Why doesn't the Delta MEC ask Delta management to direct Comair management to do so?

my opinion is that the Comair MEC was chosen by Comair pilots to represent the interests of Comair pilots, and to protect the job security of Comair pilots, not the interests of Delta pilots and that is exactly what it is doing.

Maybe they will also tell you that the check we got from the American pilots alone, was the biggest and was nearly as much as the donations we received from ALL ALPA carriers combined...Besides that, it happens that the Delta pilots are the ONLY airline pilots that constantly remind Comair pilots of how much they "gave" and how much they "helped".

When you decide to disagree with your MEC, (which I have often done myself) it should be after you have all the facts and you clearly understand why the MEC made a particular decision.

I wish no harm to any Delta pilot and I would like to see all of the furloughed pilots recalled as soon as possible. However, if for some reason I should have to choose between the welfare of Comair pilots and the welfare of Delta pilots, I do not mind telling you and the world that I will choose Comair pilots first, seven days a week and twice on Sunday.

The dispute is directly related to the past and present effort of the Delta MEC, supported by a majority of Delta pilots, to take away our CL65-700s and, if they can't do that, to limit the number that we can operate. Further, to limit our flying in the CL65-100/200 and stop our growth...Those activities on the part of the Delta MEC are injurious to the well being of EVERY Comair pilot over the term of his/her entire career at Comair.

Why should we favor a group whose activities, if successful, would cause our fellow Comair pilots to be downgraded or perhaps be furloughed?

 

[bvt1151]

From the General:

I guess we cannot believe Fred Reid and Fred Butrell now? They said it was a CRM problem. Your leaders said that.

So then Leo speaks for you?

A lot of our pilots are very protective of our own, and that makes sense, right?

...and so are Comair's pilots.

The Comair pilots are trying to secure their future at Comair. Whichever way you twist it, scope is directly detrimental to regional pilots, and directly beneficial to mainline pilots. The way we see it, the Delta pilots are trying to take the aircraft we pioneered into the industry, and then demanding we help them out further by hiring the pilots they can't afford to pay. The greatest threat to a Comair pilot's job isn't competition, Ossama, nor the bad economy. The greatest threat to a Comair pilot's job security is a group of pilots from its very own union, and very own company. Don't be suprised when we reject your demands.

 

[General Lee]

BVT1151,



quote:
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The fact is that the Comair MEC is NOT preventing Comair from hiring Delta pilots. They are not being hired by Comair because they choose of their own free will not to comply with Comair's requirements.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


--Why should they give up their chance to have a great retirement and great pay? ASA has not prevented them from giving up their number....Why should you?? Oh, that's RIGHT---you're a different type of company.........whatever---cocky cocky.
IF you think we think we are the airline, "Gods"---then you guys also need to look in the mirror.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, Delta does own Comair but the Delta pilots do not. The Delta pilots also do not own or control Comair pilots or the Comair MEC...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This is obvious. We never said we owned you. That is why our MEC chair met with yours to "ask" for help, to which he was given a list of demands. Did this not happen? Answer the question. Did your MEC chair ask for the 70 seat restriction to be lifted? HMMM---Hostage taking...Not nice.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Delta management can tell Comair management what to do and when to do it at any time...Why is the Delta MEC asking the Comair MEC to secure the hiring of furloughed Delta pilots? Why doesn't the Delta MEC ask Delta management to direct Comair management to do so?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Fred Reid and Fred Butrell said it was up to your management, and ASA's obviously said it was ok. Why would it be wrong for you guys? Hmmmm. Somebody must have told them not to do it---could it be LAWSON? He is holding all of you back. He has an agenda-----my only agenda is to help the furloughs---not to gain extra 70 seaters....The only reason I have ever brought that up is to help out the 1300 or so furloughs.


quote:
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my opinion is that the Comair MEC was chosen by Comair pilots to represent the interests of Comair pilots, and to protect the job security of Comair pilots, not the interests of Delta pilots and that is exactly what it is doing.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Great. I can understand that. But, to ask for something when people are in need is not nice. That will be remembered. Do you like to kick people when they are down? We were in crisis mode right after 9-11, and your MEC chair saw that. The ASA MEC chair extended a hand, and yours truly slapped ours. Tell me if your MEC wasn't trying to get something in return? That is underhanded.


quote:
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Maybe they will also tell you that the check we got from the American pilots alone, was the biggest and was nearly as much as the donations we received from ALL ALPA carriers combined...Besides that, it happens that the Delta pilots are the ONLY airline pilots that constantly remind Comair pilots of how much they "gave" and how much they "helped".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Well, I am sure the money from the AA pilots helped a lot, and that is good. We also gave a lot of money, and I am sure that ours helped plenty of your pilots. I don't remember many of our pilots complaining then that they were paying a lot of money each month, but now I hear a lot of pilots saying you are ungrateful. Your "management" or MEC or whatever has stuck their noses up at our furloughs---and there is no reason they should have to give up their senority numbers when ASA doesn't do that. Come on! You are not ultimately paying for the training costs---Delta is. Fred Reid said he thought ASA giving jobs to our pilots was a good thing---he didn't have a problem with it. Can't you see that? Fred Reid and Fred Butrell wouldn't mind if you stopped that policy, but someone over there wouldn't---Lawson?


quote:
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When you decide to disagree with your MEC, (which I have often done myself) it should be after you have all the facts and you clearly understand why the MEC made a particular decision.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


All the facts, huh? Your MEC is making decisions for you that might hurt your pilot group. How would allowing Delta furloughs hurt you guys? They would go to the bottom of the list, not bumping anyone. When they would leave to go back to Delta, they would not go back in one large chunk, it would be over time, and that would help move up people junior to them. The training costs are paid for ultimately by Delta, so that is not a factor. Admit it, your excuses are weak.


quote:
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I wish no harm to any Delta pilot and I would like to see all of the furloughed pilots recalled as soon as possible. However, if for some reason I should have to choose between the welfare of Comair pilots and the welfare of Delta pilots, I do not mind telling you and the world that I will choose Comair pilots first, seven days a week and twice on Sunday.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I expect that from anybody. I know that we all have our own worries and we need to help our own first. But, in this case you are not freely helping anyone of our pilots, and your sister company ASA is. If they could, why couldn't you? What is the difference between you and ASA? Do you "owe" us anything, especially since we supported you? I guess not, but don't expect us to help much in the future. Your image over here has been tarnished. The idea that Fred reid and company want us to dislike you and not ASA doesn't make sense. Think about it. Tell me again what their motives are? What are your motives? More 70 seaters?


quote:
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The dispute is directly related to the past and present effort of the Delta MEC, supported by a majority of Delta pilots, to take away our CL65-700s and, if they can't do that, to limit the number that we can operate. Further, to limit our flying in the CL65-100/200 and stop our growth...Those activities on the part of the Delta MEC are injurious to the well being of EVERY Comair pilot over the term of his/her entire career at Comair.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You guys have benefited greatly since 9-11. Your upgrades have multiplied ten fold. Don't cry about what you haven't accomplished as of late. The limits we had have now been stretched and you have gained. Your growth has been only helped by 9-11. And, we have never said anything about taking your 70 seaters. I have pointed out that maybe we should take NEW 70 seaters (after your 57) and place our furloughed pilots in them. What? You don't like that? Why not? You won't hire them without them giving up their numbers, and they want to continue to fly big Delta jets someday. If you would have been nicer to our guys, then maybe we wouldn't be looking for some place to put them. Dalpa is seriously looking into it, and that is because all of our furloughs and more are telling them to. You won't help them, so we have to---which is good for them. Your pilots who are worried about their careers at Comair should also worry about their MEC's decisions---which in turn is hurting their careers.



quote:
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Why should we favor a group whose activities, if successful, would cause our fellow Comair pilots to be downgraded or perhaps be furloughed?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why would they be furloughed? Our guys would have gone to the bottom, not yours. That makes no sense. We just wanted jobs for our unfortunate furloughs, and you guys couldn't deliver without restrictions (give up your number) and more restrictions--(give us more 70 seaters). It is all just too bad.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[embdrvr]

#1---on your Idea that your company can keep the "resign your senority number " policy. Well, that is your policy. When Fred Reid and Fred Butrell talked to us in the ATL crew lounge a week or so ago, they both said that it was your policy and up to your management (MEC) to decide---they weren't going to force it on you.

General must be right. Historically Comair management has deferred to the MEC to make all those important policy decisions. Oh and Fred R and Fred B are up for a nomination to sainthood and always strive to maintain good relations between CMR and and mainline.
Yumm. This is the best Kool-Aid I've had in ages. Anyone want some?
General, I've got some lovely oceanfront property in PHX that I'll sell you.

 

[General Lee]

Embdrvr,

Sweet, I would love to go to the beach in PHX. Anyways, I guess Fred R. and Fred B. have something up their sleeves? I got it---They want to divide everyone and have the Delta pilots only like the ASA pilots, and hate the Comair guys....Don't you think they have other important things to do? Come on, where do you come up with this? I can see them trying to divide the groups--Delta vs Regionals, but not Delta and ASA vs Comair.... Don't get paranoid on me now. It is a simple policy change-----you can do it. Why can't you? Oh, you dont WANT to. Oh, I see. That is a CRM problem.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[sleepy]

To set the record straight, ASA management told our MEC that they were going to hired furloughrd DAL pilots, then asked what our people thought about it. Our people said that it is the right thing to do. I'm glad they did the right thing, but our management would have done what they want to do anyway.

 

[General Lee]

Thanks Sleepy, you just made my point. I don't have an "agenda" here to divide pilot groups. I don't enjoy making people mad. I really want my friends to get back into cockpits and do something they ENJOY. I really enjoy my job, and feel LUCKY to have a good one. I don't think I was ENTITLED to get this one, I was just lucky and did well in the process. My whole point is that there are a lot of good furloughed pilots out there that would not act like they were "all that and a bag of chips" around you---they just want to fly planes and get paid. The majority of pilots at Comair probably want to help, but somebody has to get rid of that policy. The ASA guys didn't see the "jerk" Delta pilots who supposedly talk down to them, they saw the furloughed guys/gals out on the street. They are the ones that are suffering. The ASA pilots did the right thing, and I don't care if I have to call the interviewers myself everyday to remind them, I will remind them what they did for us. It might be a while before we hire, but when we do after the furloughs come back, it will be good for those involved. We hired 3000 pilots from '96 to 99, and yes 1310 are on the street. Being in that first wave really helps, trust me. Thank you again ASA pilots, and to the Comair pilots I will say just think about trashing that policy---it might help.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[cocknbull]

It's funny. I was watching animal kingdom and they were telling the story of the shark and that thing that just rides around the sharks back and sucks its food right of the sharks back. After a while food in the ocean became rare, but that sucker just kept sucking. Soon the sucker was nearly as big as the shark. However that sucker did not appriciate what the shark had did for it. As a result the shark was upset, but the sucker showed no pitty. A few months went by and the sucker swam around the ocean basking in its new found power. The shark down but not out swam and swam and swam; soon the oceans were full of fish and the shark got fat again. The sucker's luck had changed for the worst. The sucker had tried to go alone. It soon realized its small body and niche did not allow it to succeed alone. Tired of seeing the whimpy little sucker the shark bit its head off.

Pitty Pitty isn't it.......

 

[bvt1151]

cocknbull,

nice story. How about the one where the adult male lion kills all the cubs to prevent it from being challenged? But then the one cub who escaped the jaws of the lion came back to win control of the pride...pitty pitty.

There's a story for everything


General,
This could go on forever. Obviously you've got your version of the truth and we've got ours. Pilots are notoriously bull-headed and this instance is no different. Just try to understand one thing; Your entire argument rests on the ideas that the Comair pilots are BELOW the Delta pilots. This mind-set is apparent in the way our MEC was approached with the set of demands. We weren't approached with an offer. We were approached with a threat. "Hire our furloughs or no Comair pilot will ever work for Delta." You've even said it yourself, many times. If you expect us to give up something in negotiations with our own managment you need to offer something (preferential hiring isn't a realistic offer. It doesn't even exist). Until then I think you'll receive the same reception.

Somebody brought up a good point. Your management owns ours. Why don't you pressure them into changing Comair's policy? Leo, Fred A. and B. all want divided pilot groups, its good for business. All they would have to do (if they really cared about furloughs) is to make it so. Just like all your MEC would have to do (if it really was at the top of his list) is pressure management into Comair's changing of the policy. Both have more leverage than the Comair MEC.
So why wouldn't (1)the Freds and (2) your MEC take it into their own hands?

Answers:
1. The Freds see the pilot groups dividing all by themselves, which keeps their black numbers big, and their red numbers small. Labor Relations for Managers 101.

2. Your MEC isn't willing to give on an issue to negotiate the Comair/furlough issues. He would rather let the Comair pilots compromise their issues with Comair management as a "favor" to the Delta pilots. If they don't agree, then he'll just "go public" and blame the Comair pilots for the Delta furlough problem. Either way he can always tell the furloughs "we did 'all' we could do." Rather brilliant way to keep from compromising with mgmt and to avoid the issue of furloughs...assuming the furloughs don't figure it out.

So don't tell me your pilots are on the streets because of Lawson. All your MEC and "friendly" managers have to do is snap their fingers and it's done. They never planned on giving anything up to get the furloughs working again, which is why they were so shocked when Lawson tried to negotiate. Ultimately the responsibility for the furloughs lies squarely on the Delta pilots' sholders. The question is, are the DELTA pilots willing to give up what would be required to get DELTA furloughs working, or are they content sitting back and blaming Comair? Each furlough at Delta needs to ask themselves that question.

 

[captainv]

Surplus1,

First of all, thanks for taking the time to respond in such detail. I appreciate the effort, that's probably the most comprehensive post i've seen concerning the view from the Comair side of the fence.

Also, bvt1151, thanks for the condensed version!

obviously i'm sympathetic to the Delta furloughees because of my friend. but that doesn't mean that i'm not supportive of the Comair pilot group. one reason i post is to try to figure out what's hype and hyperbole and what's the truth. however, there's lots of hype and hyperbole on both sides, and truth often depends on our own point of view. that said, i still have an open mind about things. as i've said before, i'm new to Comair, new to the airlines, new to this whole way of thinking. so, you must understand that things that may seem obvious to you based on your career experiences have no impact on me because i haven't walked in your shoes. they may in time, but then again, my career and my experiences will always be vastly different from yours.

also, i'm going to raise lots of opposing views in response to issues you wrote about. that doesn't necessarily mean i support them, i'm just trying to be objective and add to the debate of ideas. anyway, let me reply to some of the issues you raised.

>>The fact is that the Comair MEC is NOT preventing Comair from hiring Delta pilots. They are not being hired by Comair because they choose of their own free will not to comply with Comair's requirements. (giving up senority at DAL)

true enough. my new hire class of 14 included 4 furloughees from the majors/regionals. They all had to resign from their previous airline, and although they knew of this coming in, it was a difficult decision to make when it came down to it. so yes, the Delta furloughees are asking for special treatment.

and yes, it seems that Delta mgt. has the power to instruct Comair mgt. to hire the furloughees. i've mentioned the role of Delta mgt. in the past, i.e. they control where DCI flies, and where DAL pulls back. they control our aircraft orders and deliveries, and thus our hiring needs. they decide when DAL parks airplanes or retires a specific type and how many options we have for future growth. Delta pilots posted in response that they are infuriated with mgt's actions and discuss it at length in-house. outwardly, they are angry at us for not pitching in to help, as ASA has done by hiring furloughees.

you allege that the Delta MEC wants to divide the Comair pilot group, take the 70-seater for itself and restrict the use of the 50-seater. (i say allege because this is what you believe to be true. none of us can possibly know what someone else is thinking)

now, don't take this excerpt as support for his positions, but Gen. Lee has said that we are limited to 57 in DCI, and that they would want 70-seaters in addition to the 57 DCI would share. if this accurately represents the DAL view (a big if, perhaps), that doesn't impact Comair, unless it's the limit of 57 that you're objecting to. as for restricting use of the 50-seater, if we're adding 30+ airplanes (50s and 70s) this year and hiring 300+ pilots, does it not stand to reason that we are in fact expanding our use of the 50-seater?

or, in another tack, why would Delta take the 70 to mainline? wouldn't that be more expensive than leaving it at DCI? would they pay Comair rates to the furloughees that are brought back to fly it? what about mechanics, flight attendants, gate agents, rampers? i can't see ASA/Comair employees servicing a mainline aircraft flown by mailine pilots. i would think DAL mgt. would see it as more cost-effective for furloughees to fly RJs at Comair first-year rates, so i doubt they would support such a move.

you state that our MEC "was chosen by Comair pilots to represent the interests of Comair pilots, and to protect the job security of Comair pilots, not the interests of Delta pilots and that is exactly what it is doing." i would agree that is what he is doing. also, it's not his job to help me or any other Comair pilot get hired by Delta. that's my problem, should i choose to take that road.

by the same token though, isn't it the responsiblity of the Delta MEC to represent the interests and job security of Delta pilots? (and not those of Comair pilots?) how can we slam him for doing what we so vigorously assert is perfectly logical for us to do?

you mention that some of our pilots are suing to protect our flying as well as what we fly. looking at it from the other side of the fence, don't Delta pilots have a valid beef with us? they are losing aircraft and routes, while we are gaining aircraft and routes. now, i admit that is a very broad and vague statement and i don't have the details to make it more concise. But didn't Delta give up scope to DCI on domestic flights?

as for the "one list" argument, it seems to me that merging based on date of hire is too simplistic. perhaps if you included size of equipment flown, and what you were paid to fly it and also date of hire. still wouldn't be fair though. just in our side of the house, what about a senior guy who stayed in the Brasilia until the last day so he could fly out of MCO? would he be penalized versus someone who went right to the RJ? besides, if we went to one list based on date of hire, then mostly Comair pilots (myself included, of course) would be out on the street, based on recent hiring. that would mean our MEC couldn't support that, because it doesn't protect the interests of Comair pilots.

i'm going to have to give up on what happened during the strike. I wasn't here, i didn't experience it, so in that sense i'll never know. if Comair guys were mistreated somehow, it's not my axe to grind. if Delta guys supported us, it's not for me to say thanks. i have to rely on my own experiences, mainly jumpseating, as it gives me a chance to talk to Delta crews face to face. and I'm proud to say that every captain i've flown with (Comair or Delta) has been entirely professional about jumpseat usage.

on to disagreeing with my MEC. no, i absolutely do not have all the facts, just my opinions, which are subject to change. one reason i spend time on this board is to try to get some of the facts. i just haven't heard that much from the union since training, (@ 6 months ago), and certainly that is my fault as well. i haven't gone looking for it, except in occasional visits to the web site or breezing by the board in Ops. i missed the recent meeting as i was out on a trip, plus i commute and spend as little free time in CVG as possible. however, i'd love to see more correspondence from the union concerning current activities, perhaps through our nifty new company e-mail addresses.

with that, i'll sign off. it's extremely late and much of this has become stream-of-consciousness. i apologize in advance for any unintended flame-bait....

Captainv

 

[Heavy Set]

CaptainV,

Well said. You raise some excellent points. Finally some logic in this lunacy...

 

[bvt1151]

Your thoughts, captainv, represent only what you've heard, not what's really going on behind the scenes. If things were just as you said they were, then this would all be very black and white. However they're not. This isn't a case of an outsider being able to look at the situation unjaded and make a fair judgement. This is a case of an outsider who doesn't understand exactly whats happening.

I'll repeat what I asked in my last post: Why don't the Delta pilots negotiate with management to get their furloughs working again? Is the Delta MEC willing to give on an issue to negotiate the Comair/furlough issues? Or would he rather let the Comair pilots compromise their issues with Comair management as a "favor" to the Delta pilots? If they don't agree, then just "go public" and blame the Comair pilots for the Delta furlough problem. Either way he can always tell the furloughs "we did 'all' we could do." Rather brilliant way to keep from compromising with mgmt and to avoid the issue of furloughs...assuming the furloughs don't figure it out.

What, besides threatening Comair pilots, are the Delta pilots doing to get their furloughs working again? This question is not rhetorical. I'm interested in an answer.


In the interest of ending the debate whether or not Comair was threatened, I've included Webster's theories on the subject.
threat (-et)n announcement of what the speaker intends to do if his orders or wishes are not complied with.
Example, "If you don't pressure management into hiring Delta furloughs without requiring them to resign their number, we will see to it that Comair pilots do not get hired at Delta."

 

[captainv]

bvt1151,

>Your thoughts, captainv, represent only what you've heard, not what's really going on behind the scenes.

fair enough, it's either what i've heard, or me trying to apply logic to what i can see for myself. for example, i know for a fact we are adding airplanes and pilots at Comair. anyone can see that. how are the Delta guys trying to restrict us on the 50-seater? (an issue surplus1 raised)

also, how would i know what's going on behind the scenes? the union website has a letter from J.C. Lawson to the Delta MEC, but for some reason it won't open.... i get an error message. also, we want to have a seat at the table if the Delta MEC were to negotiate something that would negatively affect us. well sure, that makes sense. of course that would mean we give the Delta MEC a seat at the table if we were to decide something that would negatively affect the Delta pilots.

on that, the furloughs don't count - no matter where you stand on this, at this time we treat them the same as we treat all other furloughees. they all have to give up their senority numbers. also, you could even argue that our adding planes/routes while Delta cuts planes/routes doesn't count either - that decision was not made by our MEC or our mgt. It was made by Delta mgt.

you say that i'm "an outsider who doesn't understand exactly what's happening." well, obviously i'm not behind the scenes, whatever that means. why am i an outsider? because i'm new? just because i don't share your views or see the evidence supporting them doesn't mean i won't if you were to point it out to me. but there's a difference between opnions and facts. i see lots of opinions on this board (my own included). i'll let the facts sway me.

>I'll repeat what I asked in my last post: Why don't the Delta pilots negotiate with management to get their furloughs working again?

i'd submit that i'm the wrong person to ask. i spend most of my time figuring out what's going on in my own pilot group. perhaps they are. any comments from Delta pilots on this? published reports say they're considering concessions, i know they opposed the force majeure and won, only to have another war break out. i'm sure they're fighting that too. gen. lee insists they're asking for 70-seaters, beyond what we're allocated to get. but all this is from a true outsider's perspective.

>>Is the Delta MEC willing to give on an issue to negotiate the Comair/furlough issues? Or would he rather let the Comair pilots compromise their issues with Comair management as a "favor" to the Delta pilots? If they don't agree, then just "go public" and blame the Comair pilots for the Delta furlough problem. Either way he can always tell the furloughs "we did 'all' we could do." Rather brilliant way to keep from compromising with mgmt and to avoid the issue of furloughs...assuming the furloughs don't figure it out.

>>What, besides threatening Comair pilots, are the Delta pilots doing to get their furloughs working again? This question is not rhetorical. I'm interested in an answer.

if you're asking me to tell you what the Delta MEC is willing to do about the furloughees, again, i'm the wrong person to ask. i gave you my opinion on what they might be doing, but i'm just guessing.

>>In the interest of ending the debate whether or not Comair was threatened, I've included Webster's theories on the subject.
threat (-et)n announcement of what the speaker intends to do if his orders or wishes are not complied with.
Example, "If you don't pressure management into hiring Delta furloughs without requiring them to resign their number, we will see to it that Comair pilots do not get hired at Delta."

well, certainly that's the view of some, if not many, Delta pilots. we won't know if that's true until they start hiring. until then, it's just a threat.

this raises another question central to most of these issues. what exactly happened at the meeting between our MEC and the Delta MEC? Did Delta try to bully us, threatening to blackball our pilots? Did we demand one list as a condition? according to posts on this board, the Delta MEC swears to his pilots that we attacked him. Our MEC swears to us that the Delta MEC ambushed him. someone isn't telling the truth, and i for one would like to know what happened. if i simply put faith in my own MEC, and Delta pilots do the same, we'll just point fingers at each other and go round in circles like this forever. i'd rather know really happened, so i can be confident that my MEC has earned my faith.

we might find out that one of the MEC's has been lying, and if so, he could be recalled. or we might find out that what was discussed in the meeting has been spun and blown completely out of proportion, which might help us all settle down a little.

a few other thoughts. most younger guys, myself included, would like to go on to fly for the majors, if the opportunity should exsist when we have competitive numbers. at this exact moment, Delta and Airtran would be at the top of my list, basically since i live in Atlanta. if the opportunity doesn't exist at any time in the next 30 years, so be it. i'll be happy to stay at Comair. as i've said before, it's a great airline, with great people. i love it here.

still. i would prefer the door at Delta be open, not shut in my face in retribution for a decision i had no input on. (speaking of which, why not vote on it? then we'd know where we all stand on the issue) that doesn't mean i only want to fly for Delta, and it doesn't mean they'd hire me anyway. i'd just like a shot. who knows, in 5-10 years or whenever the furloughs are all back and the majors start hiring again, i'll want to work for one of the top airlines. maybe it'll be Delta, maybe it'll be Southwest, maybe JetBlue, who knows?

Captainv

 

[Bill Mostellar]

What ... are the Delta pilots doing to get their furloughs working again? This question is not rhetorical. I'm interested in an answer.

For starters, we're making their COBRA payments so they can continue with the same level of medical care they had before the furlough. You would be amazed at the number of employers who won't touch a furloughed pilot - not because of their ability, but because of their possibility of recall. Many of the families would be forced into very difficult positions without this safety DALPA has provided.

Second, we're not destroying the profession they worked hard to obtain - at least not yet. Each of us is in this profession for personal, specific reasons. We'll see what happens when the MEC responds to management's request.

I wish you success!

 

[surplus1]

I like your post.

For starters, we're making their COBRA payments so they can continue with the same level of medical care they had before the furlough. You would be amazed at the number of employers who won't touch a furloughed pilot - not because of their ability, but because of their possibility of recall. Many of the families would be forced into very difficult positions without this safety DALPA has provided.

What you are doing with respect to the COBRA payments for your fourloughed pilots is admirable, should be respected and emulated where applicable. It is one of the "the right things" to do. A "well done" to the Delta pilot group is deserved and I happily add my kudos.

You are very correct in saying that very many (I would say most)employers will not touch a furloughed pilot because of the possibility of recall. This is true. It is also not new and is not unique to pilots, and has been present in all previous rounds of furloughs in the airline business. It is difficult for an employer to be eager to hire an individual who makes it known before the fact that he/she has no true interest in working for that company but is using it as a stop-gap or means to go (or return) elsewhere. In your interview with Delta, had you stated your preference for working at United, American or AirTran, I doubt seriously that you would have received a job offer.

Perhaps therefore, Comair management should not be quite so villified for its decision to go with the majority. By the same token the Comair pilot group, which does not control hiring policy at Comair, should not be blamed for management's decisions.

Second, we're not destroying the profession they worked hard to obtain - at least not yet. Each of us is in this profession for personal, specific reasons. We'll see what happens when the MEC responds to management's request.

I wish you success!

Granted you are not destroying the profession. I do hope there is no implication that we might be. In that we share the very same profession, it makes no sense that either of us should seek to destroy it. I am sure that your MEC will do its best to safeguard the achievements of Delta pilots in the upcoming round of concessionary bargaining. I further hope that your MEC will not seek to use the careers of Comair pilots as one of the tools with which it may bargain. A change in that policy, on the part of your MEC, would go a long way to mending the fences.

I too wish you success as well as the speedy recall of all your furloughed associates.

 

[bvt1151]

I agree the cobra payments are necessary to the furloughs, and are one of the most fundamental protections the union can offer. You are right Mr. Mostellar, and I don't want you to think I'm disagreeing with you, because I appreciate the reply to my question. However, I'm interested in DALPA's direct actions to actively get the furloughs back into the cockpit. Paying for benefits only helps sustain a furlough, and is not an active attempt to return the furlough to work.

Is there anything from the DALPA website, or VARS, or other union publications that explains what other options they are looking at to return their furloughs to work? Of course, being at Comair, I only hear of the one thing they've tried to do (approach Comair).