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COMair in ATL
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General Lee
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2002
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- 20,442
Pay them more and get less work?
Easy fix (In theory) Hire a manager like I had when I was 16 / 17 years old and impose a liberal fine and reward system. Also make ATL and fun place to work with crew / team building. Watch how fast the word gets out that only the best need apply. It is the old Dr. Morgan theory; you want to teach discipline, then discipline. You want to instill and good work ethic, praise and lead. You want to discourage bad behavior, fine, fire and there was my fathers way of wall to wall counseling. (not legal of course)
Kick ass and take names.
Easy fix (In theory) Hire a manager like I had when I was 16 / 17 years old and impose a liberal fine and reward system. Also make ATL and fun place to work with crew / team building. Watch how fast the word gets out that only the best need apply. It is the old Dr. Morgan theory; you want to teach discipline, then discipline. You want to instill and good work ethic, praise and lead. You want to discourage bad behavior, fine, fire and there was my fathers way of wall to wall counseling. (not legal of course)
Kick ass and take names.
>>In response to the ramper situation in ATL, I'm wondering how long its going to be before the Airtran rampers start taking their time to park us at the end of D. I know we only have a fraction of RJ's compared to ASA or Comair in ATL and we (Air Wisconsin) have only been there a few months but the rampers that handle us actually run to thier spots when were pulling in. I even flew with a Capt who is new to ATL (transferred out of ORD/United) who actually made a comment about how they ran out to park us. He said he never saw that in ORD.
Just wondering how long the novelty is going to last for us.<<
This should last forever for you (AirTran). This is an ASA issue. We see everybody elses rampers (AirTran, Delta, UsAir, etc)always 'running' to get planes parked.
Just wondering how long the novelty is going to last for us.<<
This should last forever for you (AirTran). This is an ASA issue. We see everybody elses rampers (AirTran, Delta, UsAir, etc)always 'running' to get planes parked.
~~~^~~~
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2001
- Posts
- 6,137
The Comair guys don't get it because they have not listened to their "VISION" tapes. Somebody get those cassettes to the Comair cockpits, immediately!
Anyone else notice that Northwest, Airtran, United and American get parked without much fuss. What is different about ASA's ATL operations?
First, the same "efficient cost controls" have resulted in our rampers being the lowest paid for similar work at the airport. But actually, it is not similar work. Delta rampers turn one MD80 in about an hour and forty. The "aircart" and "power cart" are integrated systems that plug in from the jetway with nice, constant, power supplies. They have complex bag routing and tracking systems, while we have a collection of broken bag carts with cities scribbled on the ends, while we try to drag our power and air carts around the ramp with as many as four airplanes per gate and twelve per zone.
All the APU noise, connecting, locating, and ad lib operations takes a toll on these guys and there is absolutely no incentive to move faster because you can never get caught up.
Gordon Bethune implemented a simple reward system at CAL. His bean counters figured out the cost to the company for late and cancelled flights (hotel rooms, pax disruption compensation, etc...) he then took half of that money and allocated it to a bonus program. It worked out to be some where between $35 and $100 a month if the airline met certain criteria. Sure, it was not much money, but enough to take your sweetie to dinner. I think some sort of positive reward would go a long way to both saving the company moeny and motivating employees. Hack, if they steal of our catering cart, they must really need $35.
Second, someone has figured out it is more cost effective to underpay and understaff the ramp and just accept the delays. I for one wish they had spent the money on the rampers and their managers instead of cassette tapes, posters and Commut a' Walks.
~~~^~~~
Paid by the minute, waiting on the ramp with the rest of you...
Anyone else notice that Northwest, Airtran, United and American get parked without much fuss. What is different about ASA's ATL operations?
First, the same "efficient cost controls" have resulted in our rampers being the lowest paid for similar work at the airport. But actually, it is not similar work. Delta rampers turn one MD80 in about an hour and forty. The "aircart" and "power cart" are integrated systems that plug in from the jetway with nice, constant, power supplies. They have complex bag routing and tracking systems, while we have a collection of broken bag carts with cities scribbled on the ends, while we try to drag our power and air carts around the ramp with as many as four airplanes per gate and twelve per zone.
All the APU noise, connecting, locating, and ad lib operations takes a toll on these guys and there is absolutely no incentive to move faster because you can never get caught up.
Gordon Bethune implemented a simple reward system at CAL. His bean counters figured out the cost to the company for late and cancelled flights (hotel rooms, pax disruption compensation, etc...) he then took half of that money and allocated it to a bonus program. It worked out to be some where between $35 and $100 a month if the airline met certain criteria. Sure, it was not much money, but enough to take your sweetie to dinner. I think some sort of positive reward would go a long way to both saving the company moeny and motivating employees. Hack, if they steal of our catering cart, they must really need $35.
Second, someone has figured out it is more cost effective to underpay and understaff the ramp and just accept the delays. I for one wish they had spent the money on the rampers and their managers instead of cassette tapes, posters and Commut a' Walks.
~~~^~~~
Paid by the minute, waiting on the ramp with the rest of you...
ATL Ramp
If those rampers knew what was good for them they would hustle more (some). If, when Comair comes down to handle thier ATL flights you will see them shape up or get shipped out. The problem is not the workers it is the managment. I saw a ramper work an entire 70 seat flight totally full by himself in the pouring rain. Fuel, bags, pink tags, push. The flight turned in about 35 minutes. This kind of stuff happens everyday in CVG. Pure excellence. Ask the ACA guys how they like the CVG operation compared to BOS and LGA. When we see this everyday and we go to ATL our mouths drop. Companies that operate w/ ASA ATL performance do not survive. It may take time, but this will change. It has too. I really feel sorry for ASA pilots. How do you ever get used to that. I know you guys work hard, you certainly deserve better.
If those rampers knew what was good for them they would hustle more (some). If, when Comair comes down to handle thier ATL flights you will see them shape up or get shipped out. The problem is not the workers it is the managment. I saw a ramper work an entire 70 seat flight totally full by himself in the pouring rain. Fuel, bags, pink tags, push. The flight turned in about 35 minutes. This kind of stuff happens everyday in CVG. Pure excellence. Ask the ACA guys how they like the CVG operation compared to BOS and LGA. When we see this everyday and we go to ATL our mouths drop. Companies that operate w/ ASA ATL performance do not survive. It may take time, but this will change. It has too. I really feel sorry for ASA pilots. How do you ever get used to that. I know you guys work hard, you certainly deserve better.
Palerider957
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2003
- Posts
- 975
On time?
I wandered into Ops the other day and had a frank discussion with one of the long time guys there. He told me, in no uncertain terms, that the current "on time" numbers are totally false.
Apparently when we call out/off, these numbers are noted, but only for payroll (premium, overblock etc.) The GATE also calls numbers to operations and THOSE numbers are the ones used to determine our on time performance. He showed me a page full of numbers, gate time, vs. pilot times. NOT ONE OF THEM MATCHED.
If our on time performance were acurately recorded it would be more abyssmal than it currently is. The gate doesn't want to get gigged for being late, so they call it something beneficial to them.
Hey, it's always a "crew delay" anyway......
An earlier poster hit it on the head: ATL rampers don't have much to work with (shi.tty, broken down equipment. And total overcrowding), and they are less than motivated. ASA guys have gotten used to it, and have refined the late PA "We sure apoligize for the delay......."
I wandered into Ops the other day and had a frank discussion with one of the long time guys there. He told me, in no uncertain terms, that the current "on time" numbers are totally false.
Apparently when we call out/off, these numbers are noted, but only for payroll (premium, overblock etc.) The GATE also calls numbers to operations and THOSE numbers are the ones used to determine our on time performance. He showed me a page full of numbers, gate time, vs. pilot times. NOT ONE OF THEM MATCHED.
If our on time performance were acurately recorded it would be more abyssmal than it currently is. The gate doesn't want to get gigged for being late, so they call it something beneficial to them.
Hey, it's always a "crew delay" anyway......
An earlier poster hit it on the head: ATL rampers don't have much to work with (shi.tty, broken down equipment. And total overcrowding), and they are less than motivated. ASA guys have gotten used to it, and have refined the late PA "We sure apoligize for the delay......."
bvt1151
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 12, 2002
- Posts
- 937
Re: On time?
You are absolutely correct! When we pull out of ATL and call in the times, we noticed that when we checked our schedule later, all out times were 10 minutes earlier than we reported. Makes me some money, however if the public ever catches wind of how scewed the on-time performances are, especially when its intentional, ATL will be in for a shakeup. There's already been some frustration in the accuracy of the on-time numbers in the professional journals.
Palerider957 said:
You are absolutely correct! When we pull out of ATL and call in the times, we noticed that when we checked our schedule later, all out times were 10 minutes earlier than we reported. Makes me some money, however if the public ever catches wind of how scewed the on-time performances are, especially when its intentional, ATL will be in for a shakeup. There's already been some frustration in the accuracy of the on-time numbers in the professional journals.
E twr told us yesterday that we don't need to call our times anymore that the times are put in from the gate! ok....so the times are going to be really off. From what i got from the cp's office, the times in the can are what goes to our pay. Far as I am concerened clock for me starts at door close, if they want to put in a different time...whatever.
DD, I wish I could agreee with you but believe me the rampers (for the most part, not all) could not care less if they are told to hit the road. Like was posted earlier, a piss test takes quite a few every time. The MOD asked me today how the dept coordinators were working out. I told him unless they have authority over the rampers, catering, cleaning and fuel, all they are, are just another person on the ramp.
DD, I wish I could agreee with you but believe me the rampers (for the most part, not all) could not care less if they are told to hit the road. Like was posted earlier, a piss test takes quite a few every time. The MOD asked me today how the dept coordinators were working out. I told him unless they have authority over the rampers, catering, cleaning and fuel, all they are, are just another person on the ramp.
captainv
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2002
- Posts
- 572
ATL
First off, everything i've read here has been dead on about the ATL rampers. although i will say that the past few departure coordinators have been good - busting their a$$ to keep our delays to a minimum.
one thing to consider though - the city of Atlanta looks at Hartsfield as an enormous jobs program, apparently with special emphasis on people who would be useless in any other capacity.
actually, most civil workers in ATL share the same attitude - where the focus is simply in getting paid, not providing any actual work. when i came up here a few years back, it took 3 full days to get a Georgia Driver's license, but at least that's one civil service debacle that's actually been fixed.
even though our current mayor is vastly better than the last, i wouldn't expect much to change in the quality of rampers. i get the feeling the city would rather have them wasting our time at the airport than roaming the streets with nothing to do.
Captainv
First off, everything i've read here has been dead on about the ATL rampers. although i will say that the past few departure coordinators have been good - busting their a$$ to keep our delays to a minimum.
one thing to consider though - the city of Atlanta looks at Hartsfield as an enormous jobs program, apparently with special emphasis on people who would be useless in any other capacity.
actually, most civil workers in ATL share the same attitude - where the focus is simply in getting paid, not providing any actual work. when i came up here a few years back, it took 3 full days to get a Georgia Driver's license, but at least that's one civil service debacle that's actually been fixed.
even though our current mayor is vastly better than the last, i wouldn't expect much to change in the quality of rampers. i get the feeling the city would rather have them wasting our time at the airport than roaming the streets with nothing to do.
Captainv
captainv
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2002
- Posts
- 572
Comair in ATL
>Your message seems to imply that the ATL rampers are civil servants of the city of ATL or the airport authority. If you check a little closer, I think you will find that they are employees of the respective airlines.
of course they're employees of the airlines, i was just saying that the horrible work ethic of the airport rampers is shared by many of the city's civil servants. (one could also argue that many of them come from the the same hiring pool) sorry if i didn't make that clear enough.
also, even though it is the airlines or food service companies that hire the employees, the city takes a huge interest in how Hartsfield is run. For decades, it has been a political patronage system (albeit not at the ramper level).
i'd be interested to see the reaction at the airport if Comair were to transfer some rampers down there. i'd love to have them there, but i think it'd cause a ruckus...
Captainv
>Your message seems to imply that the ATL rampers are civil servants of the city of ATL or the airport authority. If you check a little closer, I think you will find that they are employees of the respective airlines.
of course they're employees of the airlines, i was just saying that the horrible work ethic of the airport rampers is shared by many of the city's civil servants. (one could also argue that many of them come from the the same hiring pool) sorry if i didn't make that clear enough.
also, even though it is the airlines or food service companies that hire the employees, the city takes a huge interest in how Hartsfield is run. For decades, it has been a political patronage system (albeit not at the ramper level).
i'd be interested to see the reaction at the airport if Comair were to transfer some rampers down there. i'd love to have them there, but i think it'd cause a ruckus...
Captainv
winged princess
New member
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2003
- Posts
- 4
To add my 2 cents to the ATL situation.....
I go in there several times a trip. Last week was the worse. We had been sitting there for 1 1/2 hours and started getting service and 71 passengers about 15 minutes prior to departure time. If my FO and I had not been out helping, we would still be there.
ATL is the worse station I have ever seen. This was my briefing to the passengers, "I apologize for the delay leaving ATL. This CVG based, Comair crew and airplane have been here for 1 1/2 hours. Unfortunately we were unable to get the ASA Atlanta ramp and gate to do there job."
There is also a writeup going to Comair. One of our Chief Pilots told me to write up every incident in ATL. They want to make sure we don't get blamed for the delays. Not sure if I want to spend that much time writing....
I can't believe I used to complain about our CVG ramp!! We have a great station and ramp and gate crew!!! We could probably TDY some rampies to ATL and it would be worth the extra expense. It doesn't help that they have to use fuel trucks from a different company.
It is amazing that Comair had the foresight to build the terminal and operate the way they have for almost 10 years!! Thank God!!
I feel sorry for the ASA pilots, you must be very patient or very frustrated!
I go in there several times a trip. Last week was the worse. We had been sitting there for 1 1/2 hours and started getting service and 71 passengers about 15 minutes prior to departure time. If my FO and I had not been out helping, we would still be there.
ATL is the worse station I have ever seen. This was my briefing to the passengers, "I apologize for the delay leaving ATL. This CVG based, Comair crew and airplane have been here for 1 1/2 hours. Unfortunately we were unable to get the ASA Atlanta ramp and gate to do there job."
There is also a writeup going to Comair. One of our Chief Pilots told me to write up every incident in ATL. They want to make sure we don't get blamed for the delays. Not sure if I want to spend that much time writing....
I can't believe I used to complain about our CVG ramp!! We have a great station and ramp and gate crew!!! We could probably TDY some rampies to ATL and it would be worth the extra expense. It doesn't help that they have to use fuel trucks from a different company.
It is amazing that Comair had the foresight to build the terminal and operate the way they have for almost 10 years!! Thank God!!
I feel sorry for the ASA pilots, you must be very patient or very frustrated!
~~~^~~~
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2001
- Posts
- 6,137
Actually: The airport is worse than that. There are two sets of redundant positions in the airport staffing structure. The politician's buddies have offices in the Atrium and two sets of phone numbers, the public numbers that they never answer and private numbers so their friends and co workers can actually reach them.
Their jobs are to award contracts for the work that they are not doing. (If a contract requires 10 staff to do the job, then 12 people have to administer the contract)
Then private companies such as AATC do some work, while subcontracting most everything they do not want to do to another tier of sub-contractors. From the AATC on down the process gets more efficient and less political - but the political jobs go to the people we never see. You used to see their cars, however. Remember all the very nice autos in the covered parking even closer than the hourly lots - that's them.
I agree that the new Mayor is a huge improvement. However, this problem goes all the way back to the WMBE offices in the early 70's. The fact that the World's busiest airport works as well as it does is amazing to me and a credit to the folks at the AATC (who are acutally paid and run by the airlines, but sort of supervised by the City).
Someone tell me, why does the City of Atlanta even have their hands in an airport located in Hapeville anyway?
Their jobs are to award contracts for the work that they are not doing. (If a contract requires 10 staff to do the job, then 12 people have to administer the contract)
Then private companies such as AATC do some work, while subcontracting most everything they do not want to do to another tier of sub-contractors. From the AATC on down the process gets more efficient and less political - but the political jobs go to the people we never see. You used to see their cars, however. Remember all the very nice autos in the covered parking even closer than the hourly lots - that's them.
I agree that the new Mayor is a huge improvement. However, this problem goes all the way back to the WMBE offices in the early 70's. The fact that the World's busiest airport works as well as it does is amazing to me and a credit to the folks at the AATC (who are acutally paid and run by the airlines, but sort of supervised by the City).
Someone tell me, why does the City of Atlanta even have their hands in an airport located in Hapeville anyway?
~~~^~~~
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2001
- Posts
- 6,137
That announcement would get us a visit to the Chief Pilot's Office. Numerous memos have been written and ASA distributed a QRH guide to passenger announcements covering most situations.winged princess said:
Bottom line, the passengers do not give a flying fornication that Comair is better in CVG. In Atlanta, Comair stinks just as bad as a E120 lav in August. Your passengers see you as Delta Connection, no different that Delta, the airline they bought your ticket from.
To some degree, management has a point that venting your frustration to the cabin does not make the passengers more understanding, it just makes them angrier, being reminded of the fact they are late.
You can take some solace in the fact you are growing while ASA is shrinking and our Captains are being displaced. As bad as you hate Atlanta, we ASA Captains sure wish it was us flying out of our senior base. We would gladly trade with you.
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