Comair / ASA Merger

[N2264J]

Duane Woerth is supposed to be the guest of honor at the October 9th meeting of the Comair MEC. Something is up....

Any guesses?

I have two guesses -

1) Nothing of substance will come of out of it but the suspense of seeing Duane Woerth and his entourage show up at the birthplace of the RJDC ought to be worth the price of admission. This sort of thing is the reason he makes more money than the President of the United States.

2) scopeCMRandASA is feverishly looking for his Comair Ops manual revision that contains the section on operating policy and procedures for Delta Shuttle flights.

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

Fins,

I don't think anything will come out of the DW appearance at the CMR MEC meeting. Very little can be said with the pending litigation. He may explain exactly what ALPA's stance is on the independent bargaining afforded to each MEC during negotiations, but I would be surprised if anything comes out of it. After all we have people like this at Comair:


n2264j:

2) scopeCMRandASA is feverishly looking for his Comair Ops manual revision that contains the section on operating policy and procedures for Delta Shuttle flights.

Some people just can't admit that they are wrong, even when they are proven wrong. Plus, he can't just leave it alone so it will die a peaceful death, like Surplus did when I proved him wrong.

--a concerned regional pilot

 

[ReportCanoa]

October 9th

You called it...

 

[Freebrd]

Old DW will give a speech in an attempt to convince the CMR pilots to give it up for Old Mother Delta (and DALPA) Good luck. Wish I could be there. DW has some balls though for showing up at CMR's house don't ya think?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Feebird : You might be right, another concern is that he is using the bully pulpit to place political pressure on the RJDC, since the lawsuit is inconveniently forcing ALPA to at least pay lip service to representation of ASA and Comair - plus it is interfering with some of the nastier things the Delta MEC might want to accomplish involving Comair and ASA.

I've been expecting ALPA to roll the big guns any time after the motion to dismiss failed. It is probably no coincidence that the status conference outlining the discovery portion of the litigation was last Friday. ALPA paid almost a million dollars to avoid opening the books in Miller v. ALPA, but RJDC litigation can not be settled with money. ALPA is unwilling to act within the confines of legal representational standards, so their only last option is a political attack.

It truly is a shame ALPA will not change course as we all race for the bottom to secure flying. Obviously the solution for all of us is a brand scope solution, but ALPA will not force the Delta MEC to work with the rest of the so called "family." So we continue on this destructive course.

~~~^~~~

 

[N2264J]

Some people just can't admit that they are wrong, even when they are proven wrong. Plus, he can't just leave it alone so it will die a peaceful death, like Surplus did when I proved him wrong.

--a concerned regional pilot

Well, while you're proving everybody wrong in your concerned and regional way, maybe you can walk me through this.

1) The Delta pilots thought the transfer of Shuttle flying to Comair was so egregious, ALPA sued Delta Air Lines in court to make it stop.

2) In the meantime, the Delta pilots, thinking it was so important, picketed LGA, BOS and DCA to demostrate their displeasure with management for transferring their flying to Comair.

3) After the Judge declared it a minor dispute and threw it out of court, the Delta pilots, hell bent for leather on this crusade, followed up with the grievance.

4) Then the grievance was withdrawn and subsequently the DMEC bargained the flying away?

So what do you think they got for it, better scope?

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

Re: Re: Comair / ASA Merger

Well, while you're proving everybody wrong in your concerned and regional way, maybe you can walk me through this.

1) The Delta pilots thought the transfer of Shuttle flying to Comair was so egregious, ALPA sued Delta Air Lines in court to make it stop.

2) In the meantime, the Delta pilots, thinking it was so important, picketed LGA, BOS and DCA to demostrate their displeasure with management for transferring their flying to Comair.

3) After the Judge declared it a minor dispute and threw it out of court, the Delta pilots, hell bent for leather on this crusade, followed up with the grievance.

4) Then the grievance was withdrawn and subsequently the DMEC bargained the flying away?

So what do you think they got for it, better scope?

I find it interesting that you take great delight in the contract violations of others. I followed this closely, when it happened. First, you were and are wrong. The judge declared it an internal dispute. He threw it back to the grievance process. Apparently, the company thought that they would lose, because the ceased and desisted, hence the grievance was withdrawn. You seem to try and take the fact that Comair is flying extra sections on the shuttle now as proof that you were right, when your case was based on old contract language which has subsequently changed. Your hard headedness over this minor issue is a symptom which carries through to other issues, and I mention it as proof that people like you here at Comair are the problem we have with Delta pilots' lack of respect for the entire group. Do I think they got better scope? Who are the ones suing ALPA? How is our scope looking lately? Yes, I think that they have enviable scope, and a VERY enviable contract. I'd swap spots with a furloughee in a heartbeat, and I will also be in that situation someday. Will you, or will you just keep throwing barbs at a brick wall to feed your ego?

--a concerned regional pilot

 

[N2264J]

I find it interesting that you take great delight in the contract violations of others...You seem to try and take the fact that Comair is flying extra sections on the shuttle now as proof that you were right, when your case was based on old contract language which has subsequently changed.

--a concerned regional pilot

Your words.

Maybe I'm not making myself clear. What I don't understand is: if the Delta pilots thought that transfer of flying was so important that they went to court to fight it, picketed the terminals to demostrate their displeasure, filed a grievance to prevent it - why did the Delta MEC bargain it away?

And you think my head is hard?

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

Re: Re: Comair / ASA Merger

Your words.

Maybe I'm not making myself clear. What I don't understand is: if the Delta pilots thought that transfer of flying was so important that they went to court to fight it, picketed the terminals to demostrate their displeasure, filed a grievance to prevent it - why did the Delta MEC bargain it away?

And you think my head is hard?

Here is the deal. My beef with you extends with your propensity to not admit you are wrong. This is classic RJDC stuff. Our battle is not why the Delta pilots chose not to protect their flying with regard to the shuttle. They clearly did not. I am not belaboring that point. You are right. I hope that serves yhour ego, you knopw, the same one that was incorrect about the whole ruling with the Delyta pilots' grievance with the shuttle flying under the old contract. It is NOT our original argument. You know it and I know it. Why do you think Surplus has disappeared into the woodwork. Yours is same ego who does not know its place with regard to a merged list, and even more importantly a flow of som etype. This is the only correspondence with which I wish to havewith you. You cannot admit to your ego nor your ignorance. Your is not unique, and yet you profess to assume that the Delta MEC is to blame for our problems. I pity you, S, and others on this board who profess to have more knowledge, couth, and strategy than out Delta bretherin. WE do not, and worse, do not KNOW that we do not.

--a concerned regional pilot

 

[Wacopilot]

DW isn't there for RJDC. RJDC has nothing to do with his showing up on the 9th. There is however a good number of reasons for him being there! We will find out by Friday why he is comming, you ain't seen nuthin yet my friends.

I like Cheese!

 

[PositiveRate]

Yet another meaningless Delta family b^tchfest of a thread with a little infighting for dramatic effect.

The DW appearance could be interesting, though.

 

[ReportCanoa]

you ain't seen nuthin yet my friends.

 

[FLB717]

One quick question? Isnt informational picketing against the no stike clause of the Delta contract? Would that be considered self help. Basicly what is the rule, very curious?

 

[N2264J]

I hope that serves yhour ego, you knopw, the same one that was incorrect about the whole ruling with the Delyta pilots' grievance with the shuttle flying under the old contract. It is NOT our original argument.

Well, I've been able to gleen from our conversation that you or your MEC don't know what a minor dispute is.

Yours is same ego who does not know its place with regard to a merged list, and even more importantly a flow of som etype...I pity you, S, and others on this board who profess to have more knowledge, couth, and strategy than out Delta bretherin. WE do not, and worse, do not KNOW that we do not.

--a concerned regional pilot

Interesting but predictable stuff coming from a Delta furloughee who's trying to pass himself off as a concerned regional pilot in the hopes that it give his myopic rants some credence: Delta pilots good - regional pilots bad, BAD!

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

Re: Re: Comair / ASA Merger

Well, I've been able to gleen from our conversation that you or your MEC don't know what a minor dispute is.


Interesting but predictable stuff coming from a Delta furloughee who's trying to pass himself off as a concerned regional pilot in the hopes that it give his myopic rants some credence: Delta pilots good - regional pilots bad, BAD!

Deflect and divert, deflect and divert. To my Comair and ASA brothers: You heard it here first. The RJDC will lose, the appeal will lose. The countersuit from ALPA will win/be settled. ASA and Comair pilots, RJDC or not, will suffer the lasting reprocussions from people who hold attitudes just like the quoted. There are too many on the property. Unbelievable.

--a concerned regional pilot

 

[surplus1]

Surplus1,

I think a lot of people like to yank my chain, and that is fun. I enjoy this board. As far as a seniority merge or staple, I agree with that---as a staple. I have no problem with ASA/Comair guys bidding for MD-88FO slots, or 737FO slots----as long as there was a staple. Just think, someday if I upgrade to MD-88 Capt in ATL---you could be my FO!! We would have a blast---and you could show me how to really fly an ILS. I'd buy dinner, though. Take it easy.

Bye Bye--General Lee

General,

Wow, you're really nice today. I would love to be your FO, but spare me the ATL domicile. Would you consider bidding a different base? Just think of the benefits of being able to say that "I flew with the General himself!" Sorry about the ILS part though. I would never be able to fill that bill. I've spent way too long managing my cockpit so I'm not very good at "really flying an ILS". Young fellows like you are much sharper on that stuff. You have faster relexes, better vision, more coordination, and a lot more practice at the basic motor skills. If I flew with you I would expect you to demonstrate those skills, just as today I always ask my FO to fly all the tight approaches and spare me the embarrassment, and I would ask my captain to do so tomorrow and be happy to observe and learn from you. You see General, I learned to turn off the Pride switch every time I get in the cockpit .... way more than twenty years ago. I hope you'll pick that up when you have some more experience and achieve command.

By the way, how come you "fly the ILS"? Don't your aircraft have functioning auto pilots that can couple? The old DC9's I used to fly in another life did, but I don't know much about the MD88. That heavy metal intimidates me.

Incidentally, if you read my post again you will notice that I was NOT talking about a merger of our lists. Only a cross-bidding concept. So "staple" is not an issue.

Hope you're having a nice day, I am.

 

[surplus1]

Surplus1,

I think a lot of people like to yank my chain, and that is fun. I enjoy this board. As far as a seniority merge or staple, I agree with that---as a staple. I have no problem with ASA/Comair guys bidding for MD-88FO slots, or 737FO slots----as long as there was a staple. Just think, someday if I upgrade to MD-88 Capt in ATL---you could be my FO!! We would have a blast---and you could show me how to really fly an ILS. I'd buy dinner, though. Take it easy.

Bye Bye--General Lee

General,

Wow, you're really nice today. I would love to be your FO, but spare me the ATL domicile. Would you consider bidding a different base? Just think of the benefits of being able to say that "I flew with the General himself!" Sorry about the ILS part though. I would never be able to fill that bill. I've spent way too long managing my cockpit so I'm not very good at "really flying an ILS". Young fellows like you are much sharper on that stuff. You have faster relexes, better vision, more coordination, and a lot more practice at the basic motor skills. If I flew with you I would expect you to demonstrate those skills, just as today I always ask my FO to fly all the tight approaches and spare me the embarrassment, and I would ask my captain to do so tomorrow and be happy to observe and learn from you. You see General, I learned to turn off the Pride switch every time I get in the cockpit .... way more than twenty years ago. I hope you'll pick that up when you have some more experience and achieve command.

By the way, how come you "fly the ILS"? Don't your aircraft have functioning auto pilots that can couple? The old DC9's I used to fly in another life did, but I don't know much about the MD88. That heavy metal intimidates me.

Incidentally, if you read my post again you will notice that I was NOT talking about a merger of our lists. Only a cross-bidding concept. So "staple" is not an issue.

Hope you're having a nice day, I am.

 

[General Lee]

Surplus1,

Believe it or not, I am a nice guy. I just have an opinion about the Comair resignation policy that others do not agree with. I really just want our furloughs to come back, and then everyone to expand. I have never flown the MD-88, but if I do get it someday as a Captain----I will consider CVG as a base and maybe we'll fly together----and I'll still pick up the dinner tab. I think the cross bidding you suggested may work, but that might get interesting with benefits etc..... I don't know how Delta would handle that. If ASA and Comair merge, I think a lot of the "No to Comair" mentality might go away. We shall see.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[surplus1]

Surplus1,

Believe it or not, I am a nice guy.

I'm sure you are, and so are most of the Delta pilots that I've met. It's you all's politics that are screwed up, not the individuals.

I just have an opinion about the Comair resignation policy that others do not agree with. I really just want our furloughs to come back, and then everyone to expand.

Honestly, I don't mind your opinions about the Comair policy. What bothers me are the attacks you all make on Comair pilots because of that policy. I believe those attacks have a political motive that really has nothing to do with the policy itself.

That policy has been in existence for many years, long before any Delta pilots were furloughed. I'll bet a $ to a doughnut that none of you knew about it, and what's more none of you cared one way or the other. Your sudden outburst is hypocritical.

The policy is not directed at Delta pilots and never was. It applies to all pilots regardless of airline affiliation. Personally, I support the policy. Again, that has nothing to do with Delta pilots. I just don't want a bunch of pilots, from any airline, on our list when their loyalties are to a different airline. I want our pilots to be Comair pilots, period. I don't want them to be United pilots, Eagle pilots, Delta pilots, TWA pilots, ACA pilots, COEX pilots, Midway pilots or any other kind of pilots. Just Comair pilots.

The policy prevents the divided loyalties of Comair employees and that's how it should be. It is fine for you to want your furloughed pilots to get back in the cockpit. It is not fine for you or anyone else to use Comair's long standing policy to further your MEC's political agenda. Whether knowingly or otherwise, that is exactly what you all have been doing.

I object to that in the strongest terms. It is an attempt to intimidate the Comair group and that isn't going to work. In my opinion, the whole "preferential hiring" deal was orchestrated by your MEC for political reasons that really had nothing to do with your furloughed pilots. It was a ploy and it was exposed for what it was.

It does not please me that your pilots are furloughed, but I'll be dam*ed if we are going to allow your MEC to play any more politics with our pilot group. When your political leaders deal with us on the up-and-up, they'll get the same response. When they try their various schemes, while at the same time they are trying to damage our futures, it just won't fly. You and I will never be able to agree on that.

It's too bad that politics plays such a role in relationships, but it does. I feel that we did not create the conflict of interest that exists between our groups. It was created by the DMEC and is supported by ALPA. The joint agenda of those two groups is detrimental to Comair pilots and we have no choice but to resist it until it is changed. We'd love to get along with you guys, but we'll never get on our knees to make that happen.

I hope we can meet some day. I'm sure there is more on which we could agree than disagree.

On the cross bidding concept .... it was first presented to your MEC in 1995. They had no interest then and I doubt they have any now. That is because their agenda is not to find a solution to the problem, it is to achieve our subjugation. That agenda will not work. The benefits problem you mention is real, but there are ways to reslove it. Unfortunately, your leaders don't want to. Nothing will change until they do.

Take care.

 

[Bill Mostellar]

That policy has been in existence for many years, long before any Delta pilots were furloughed. I'll bet a $ to a doughnut that none of you knew about it, and what's more none of you cared one way or the other. Your sudden outburst is hypocritical.

Using your logic, any claim another MEC makes to Delta flying is hypocritical.

 

[jegermeister]

As far as the question goes about merging the two wholey owns, I think it's a matter of survival. I worked at Allegheny before coming to ASA. For those of you not familiar with the wo's at Usairways, we all stuck together for the most part as we would watch flying come and go to eachother. It never made sense to us to have 3 sets of management/training/sched... We all pondered about a mergerger but for the most part we never pushed it because none us wanted to give up pay/work rules for something that seemed like it would help the company more than us. And besides, the company would have to take care of us since they did take the effort to buy us in the first place. I mean it just wouldn't make sense to buy us and then run us into the ground.

After a while we noticed our flying starting to get farmed out to contract carriers. So we deciced to work together on the possibility of getting some jets on the property. Everything was holding together on the jets for jobs issue until, you guessed it, one of us broke ranks. PSA's MEC made a deal that in the end probably saved their jobs. Piedmont and ALG on the other hand were left with nothing other than pay cuts and a promise that turbo prop flying at Usairways will be phased out.

In retrospect had we been one airline there never would have been a deal to sell out the other two. Had we been one airline we may have been able to fly those routes that we were losing to cantrct carriers for less. In the end, what little we would have given up would have paid for itself.

 

[wms]

To get back on the subject. I'm not sure how a merger with ASA and Comair would hurt or help. A merger with Comair may push ASA pilots backwards. A merger to go backwards and gain a CVG base is no bargain, unless it includes a staple with DAL. At any rate, it's probably best to keep things the way they are.

When it come to concessions, the regionals are already at concessionary wages. DAL/DCI can shift profitable flying between carriers to make any of them appear profitable or not. DCI as a whole is profitable and if DAL wants its own carriers to operate at a loss to send a message, then thats their problem. But when compensation is considered, look at the big picture, DCI overall.

I just hope the Comair MEC doesn't try a DALPA trick and try some unilateral agreement that affects another pilot group.

 

[surplus1]

Using your logic, any claim another MEC makes to Delta flying is hypocritical.

Sorry, you went over my head. I don't understand the inference so I can't reply.

 

[surplus1]

Plus, he can't just leave it alone so it will die a peaceful death, like Surplus did when I proved him wrong.

--a concerned regional pilot

If you really believe that I "dissapeared into the woodwork" because of your little bit about the two non-voting ALPA members and the one (ALPA chosen) aribitrator on the merger arbitration panel, you really are wet behind the ears. If you choose to believe that the two non-voting ALPA members have nothing to say and might as well not be there, go ahead a believe that. I'm glad you feel that you've triumphed. I have no trouble handling myself with the likes of you, my friend. Far better have tried to make me go away. You are easy. If I made a small technical error in the way I phrased what I said, which I did, it is no problem for me to admit it. The world of how arbitration panels work will not change because of it. Since I don't operate on an ego trip, I'm not at all embarrased. You're barking up the wrong tree. Pi*sing into the wind as they say.

I chose not to reply to you further because 1) you have nothing to say that is of particular interest to me and 2) I do not believe you are who you say you are (maybe I'm wrong about that too). In either case, it's no big deal to me. By the way, unlike others, I don't think you are FlyDeltas Jets. He is much more logical and knowledgable.

Enjoy

 

[General Lee]

Surplus1,

I enjoyed your post:

"That policy has been in existence for many years, long before any Delta pilots were furloughed. I'll bet a $ to a doughnut that none of you knew about it, and what's more none of you cared one way or the other. Your sudden outburst is hypocritical."


What sudden outburst? Please don't get weird on me now. You have known throughout this process that I thought the policy "that could never ever ever ever be changed because it is set in stone even though another airline that is pretty much your clone (with some props) is allowing it" was wrong. (that was a long sentence) Anyways, I think you allow emotion into this argument that has a pretty clear cut answer---but we are allowed to disagree, and I do value your opinion.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[surplus1]

Your sudden outburst is hypocritical."

For the record the above was not a reference to you personally, but to your group as a whole.

I acknowledge there is a level of emotion from time to time. I'm only human after all. I think too that the emotional runs heavy on both sides of the fence. We are just as upset by your side of the policy debates as you are about our side. There are big issues for both of us.

Hope you have a nice weekend.

 

[surplus1]

Duane Woerth is supposed to be the guest of honor at the October 9th meeting of the Comair MEC.

Oh thrill! I guess he's descending to tell us how much he "cares".

Maybe this is just another "photo op" like the time he walked our picket line for a few minutes, got the pictures, made a flowery press statement, and then vanished never to be heard from again for the remainder of the strike.

Should we roll out the ermine and the red carpets or should we tell him, like his peers have told us ... "sometimes you have to eat a sh!t sandwich"? Maybe he's coming to tell us that same thing again himself.

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

Oh thrill! I guess he's descending to tell us how much he "cares".

Maybe this is just another "photo op" like the time he walked our picket line for a few minutes, got the pictures, made a flowery press statement, and then vanished never to be heard from again for the remainder of the strike.

Should we roll out the ermine and the red carpets or should we tell him, like his peers have told us ... "sometimes you have to eat a sh!t sandwich"? Maybe he's coming to tell us that same thing again himself.

Was that all TIC?

BTW--Is it just me, or in ALPA magazine does Howard Attarian look exactly like JC Lawson

--a concerned regional pilot

 

[surplus1]

Was that all TIC?

Not really. My trust level of that individual and his entourage is way below zero.

BTW--Is it just me, or in ALPA magazine does Howard Attarian look exactly like JC Lawson

Sorry, I'm slow. The significance escapes me. What do you mean?