Colgan Update!! 1-22-07

[GEORGE DUBYA]

I agree smart. I really am more concerned when happy hour starts and if they have Jameson available. I make 18 thousand dollars a year I don't get paid enough to care outside of work hours. I come on flight info to have fun.( Which I am having speaking with you now). I dont get paid enough to be a leader, Getting a union apparently will not change that either. A second year fo at your company makes 24 dollars an hour and one of ours makes 23. The union really did a lot of good there. You have been in contract negotiations for how long? While a union does try and protect certain things and helps you out with work rules and such be realistic. ALPA is just a really expensive magazine suscription. I just think it would be a hassle especially when our pilot group is so small. We have to get crapped on first buy the new management to even entertain the idea. I really don't think many in this company care or have the balls to even suggest we get a union. We have to grow first and have some people fired unjustly before we do anything. I haven't heard crap from ALPA yet. Do they even have an opinion on this whole thing. Wouldn't they make a statement by now? I dont think they see enough union dues coming from the 350 pilots Colgan has to make it worth their while. I am still waiting for a friggin letter in the mail or an email telling me the benefits of becoming unionized. It's been awhile now. I am sure ALPA has access to all our names and stuff. So whats the deal union rep? So far things are looking good for us. We are bought and promised more flying and bigger planes. The management doesn't sound like full of lies to me. Every indication points to them running seperate airlines entirely. Why would we want to merge with you and lose the senority we have built up at Colgan? Really what all this union talk seems to me is just a bunch of smoke and mirrors I havent seen any action yet by either the pinnacle pilots or colgan pilots. If you guys are so serious about this crap then when are you going to quick talking and acutally do something?

 

[suupah]

I agree smart. I really am more concerned when happy hour starts and if they have Jameson available. I make 18 thousand dollars a year I don't get paid enough to care outside of work hours. I come on flight info to have fun.( Which I am having speaking with you now). I dont get paid enough to be a leader, Getting a union apparently will not change that either. A second year fo at your company makes 24 dollars an hour and one of ours makes 23. The union really did a lot of good there. You have been in contract negotiations for how long? While a union does try and protect certain things and helps you out with work rules and such be realistic. ALPA is just a really expensive magazine suscription. I just think it would be a hassle especially when our pilot group is so small. We have to get crapped on first buy the new management to even entertain the idea. I really don't think many in this company care or have the balls to even suggest we get a union. We have to grow first and have some people fired unjustly before we do anything. I haven't heard crap from ALPA yet. Do they even have an opinion on this whole thing. Wouldn't they make a statement by now? I dont think they see enough union dues coming from the 350 pilots Colgan has to make it worth their while. I am still waiting for a friggin letter in the mail or an email telling me the benefits of becoming unionized. It's been awhile now. I am sure ALPA has access to all our names and stuff. So whats the deal union rep? So far things are looking good for us. We are bought and promised more flying and bigger planes. The management doesn't sound like full of lies to me. Every indication points to them running seperate airlines entirely. Why would we want to merge with you and lose the senority we have built up at Colgan? Really what all this union talk seems to me is just a bunch of smoke and mirrors I havent seen any action yet by either the pinnacle pilots or colgan pilots. If you guys are so serious about this crap then when are you going to quick talking and acutally do something?

Long Live G-Dub

 

[Smarta$$]

I agree smart. I really am more concerned when happy hour starts and if they have Jameson available. I make 18 thousand dollars a year I don't get paid enough to care outside of work hours. I come on flight info to have fun.( Which I am having speaking with you now). I dont get paid enough to be a leader, Getting a union apparently will not change that either. A second year fo at your company makes 24 dollars an hour and one of ours makes 23. The union really did a lot of good there. You have been in contract negotiations for how long? While a union does try and protect certain things and helps you out with work rules and such be realistic. ALPA is just a really expensive magazine suscription. I just think it would be a hassle especially when our pilot group is so small. We have to get crapped on first buy the new management to even entertain the idea. I really don't think many in this company care or have the balls to even suggest we get a union. We have to grow first and have some people fired unjustly before we do anything. I haven't heard crap from ALPA yet. Do they even have an opinion on this whole thing. Wouldn't they make a statement by now? I dont think they see enough union dues coming from the 350 pilots Colgan has to make it worth their while. I am still waiting for a friggin letter in the mail or an email telling me the benefits of becoming unionized. It's been awhile now. I am sure ALPA has access to all our names and stuff. So whats the deal union rep? So far things are looking good for us. We are bought and promised more flying and bigger planes. The management doesn't sound like full of lies to me. Every indication points to them running seperate airlines entirely. Why would we want to merge with you and lose the senority we have built up at Colgan? Really what all this union talk seems to me is just a bunch of smoke and mirrors I havent seen any action yet by either the pinnacle pilots or colgan pilots. If you guys are so serious about this crap then when are you going to quick talking and acutally do something?

You compare our pay which was agreed too seven years ago and was subject to change soon compared to your pay which was evaluated this year or last. The company's last offer had 2nd year FO pay around 30. Sounds alot better than your 23. Our MEC said no because it still was not good enough. Pay in this case is not a fair comparison being that ours is very outdated and subject to change while yours is newly adjusted.

Alpa is still evaluating the situation. Waiting until you get shat on to do anything is like waiting until you run out of fuel before you divert.

So as long as things look good in your opinion for you, who cares if the company uses you to harm our pilot group. This is the " as long as I got mine attitude" I mentioned in another thread.

You have no basis to say that 9E management is not liars. You have no idea and should not be making statements like that yet. I can tell you that they have lied worse than than a crack adict.

Why do you think that you would lose seniority with an integration. Not one pinnacle pilot has suggested a staple. Why would you lose seniority? Our current pilots for the most part are very content with thier base and equiptment, I would be very surprised if more than a few even made the switch to the colgan certificate. I think it much more likely that 9L pilots that are not tied down to a base would transfer to the 9E certificate for better pay when our new contract is done. But how many or few making the transfer is not the point. The point is that the company could not pit one pilot group against the other for the lowest wages. In the end 9L and 9E pilots would enjoy more flexibility, more base choices, more equiptment choices and better pay. Our upgrade is under 2 years now and dropping. We are upgrading 60 plus pilots in just the next two months. And that is before the delta flying that will be anounced soon. I just don't say were you lose out. But in the end, it is not about you, me or the senior or the junior pilots. It is about what we leave behind for other pilots in the future. By that I mean, what labor situation do we leave for future 9L and 9E pilots. What kind of pressure does this put on other pilots groups in our industry. We have all seen how bottomfeeder contracts and airlines have a ripple effect through the rest of the industry. The ripple effect does not just stop at regionals but trickles up to LCC and legacy carriers.

Current airline pilots our the stuards of this profession. WE are responsible for maintaining what is left of this job. And to improve it. The decisions we all make must at least have our profession in mind. Think about what you would want to leave behind for your son or grandson, if he wanted to be an airline pilot.

 

[CoolSidePillow]

Why does there have to be same seniority list? Why not two companies with two unions? Look what happened to the Shuttle guys that went to Republiqua. The Captains became FOs with lots of people in front of them for upgrade. PCL has over 1200 pilots and CJC 350. NO Captain here will go back to being an FO at a regional. If we were to do that we might as well go fly for a better jet regional. PCL just isnt one of them. So the CJC captain that has been in the industry for 3-4 years and already has over 1000 PIC and now just building more PIC time and making connections for something better. A good number of those Captains are in the top 1/3 of the CJC list so how will a 3rd year Captain here fair against a seniority list that grows to 1500 against pilots that have been 6-7 years at PCL? Why not have CJC get union representation and then get clauses that state we will only fly Tprops regardless of size and code share? PCL can have the jets. Nobody here wants to be a Gayjets even though we can never truly be the same because we were bought and not created to break a union but we also do not want to look bad to our pilot peers in the industry and start flying jets that were sent to us because PCL didnt like the pay scales. CJC pilots have to understand that most of the aviation industry that is worth working for is union of some fashion. There are a few exceptions but it has been a union dominated industry for decades and many of the CJC pilots that are able to interview will be doing so at union companies and the person sitting across the table just might be very pro union and even wear one of those gay alpa lanyards so it would be in our best interest in the long term to show solidarity with a sister company that is union. However, one seniority list is not needed and for the CJC FO that came here to get upgraded in 2 years or less they will lose out. CJC will have nothing to offer anyone to work here if upgrades become like other regionals. In the coming weeks there will be information sent to all CJC bases asking for an informal vote on union. We can then take it from there.

 

[Smarta$$]

Why does there have to be same seniority list? Why not two companies with two unions? Look what happened to the Shuttle guys that went to Republiqua. The Captains became FOs with lots of people in front of them for upgrade. PCL has over 1200 pilots and CJC 350. NO Captain here will go back to being an FO at a regional. If we were to do that we might as well go fly for a better jet regional. PCL just isnt one of them. So the CJC captain that has been in the industry for 3-4 years and already has over 1000 PIC and now just building more PIC time and making connections for something better. A good number of those Captains are in the top 1/3 of the CJC list so how will a 3rd year Captain here fair against a seniority list that grows to 1500 against pilots that have been 6-7 years at PCL? Why not have CJC get union representation and then get clauses that state we will only fly Tprops regardless of size and code share? PCL can have the jets. Nobody here wants to be a Gayjets even though we can never truly be the same because we were bought and not created to break a union but we also do not want to look bad to our pilot peers in the industry and start flying jets that were sent to us because PCL didnt like the pay scales. CJC pilots have to understand that most of the aviation industry that is worth working for is union of some fashion. There are a few exceptions but it has been a union dominated industry for decades and many of the CJC pilots that are able to interview will be doing so at union companies and the person sitting across the table just might be very pro union and even wear one of those gay alpa lanyards so it would be in our best interest in the long term to show solidarity with a sister company that is union. However, one seniority list is not needed and for the CJC FO that came here to get upgraded in 2 years or less they will lose out. CJC will have nothing to offer anyone to work here if upgrades become like other regionals. In the coming weeks there will be information sent to all CJC bases asking for an informal vote on union. We can then take it from there.

Some of you guys are so irrational. We do not want a staple. We want a fair integration that is agreed upon by both groups. If your upgrade is less than 2 years and ours is less than 2 years, how would yours suddenly go to 4or 5. It does not make sense. The shuttle situation was different. For one thing, they just wanted the certificate and were not going to keep the saabs. Colgan is making money. The ONE thing that uncle phol said that is true is that he wants to keep the existing flying. If you keep the existing flying and add new turboprops to colgan, how would the upgrade go up? I think we can agree that the number of 9E pilots that would make the transition would be small, so again how would upgrade suddenly go much higher?

You say you don't want to be used against us but are not willing to do anything about it. I don't understand why so many pilots do not care about the wake they leave behind them in this industry. You hear pilots talk all the time about how mainline pilot F-ed up royally by giving up scope, retirement and wages. In five years we will be judged on what wake we leave behind us. It will not only affect the pilots behind us but will follow us through are carreer. Mainline pilots gave up scope trying to save thier retirement and salaries. How did that turn out for them? They just ended up putting the bottom third of mainline pilots on the street.

 

[CoolSidePillow]

So why cant there be two seniority groups since it is two seperate airlines both being union and both with contracts that keep the flying seperate. A clause in the CJC contract that doesnt allow jets for example?

 

[Smarta$$]

So why cant there be two seniority groups since it is two seperate airlines both being union and both with contracts that keep the flying seperate. A clause in the CJC contract that doesnt allow jets for example?

I don't know. Let others discuss that for now. I don't see how that would be more beneficial than one list between certificates like republi********************ica.

 

[sinkrate]

So why cant there be two seniority groups since it is two seperate airlines both being union and both with contracts that keep the flying seperate. A clause in the CJC contract that doesnt allow jets for example?

The upgrade time at PCL is two years. A 3rd or 4th year CA at PCL will make around 60K. Can you do that at Colgan? Why would you limit your career oportunities like that? No one in the PCL pilot group wants to take your current seat from you. Management does and will but the pilots don't.

PCL did not buy Colgan just to leave it as a small turbo prop/EAS carrier. PCL managements mantra is 'growth'. When Phil T. took over PCL it was Colgan's twin. Outstation based with a lot of EAS contracts. Paducah, Joplin, Tupelo, Muscle Shoals, Hattiesburg, Jackson TN, just name a few. One of the first things he did was move everyone into the hubs and then slowly abandon EAS work. He hates it because there is no growth in it and no place for larger AC.

When Colgan grows it will be with contracts to fly larger AC for mainline carriers. Those carriers will move your flying around seasonally, if not monthly. In the summer you will go to MDT and in the fall to SCE. Unless you want to be told 'pack your bags and move next week' twice a year (like Mesa pilots were told at one point) you might be hub based. On the other hand, since you do not have a labor agreement that specifies moving expenses you might be moving every six months. One thing though is sure. Three years from now your airline will not look anything like it does now. And without a labor agreement you will be moving at managements whim (no expenses paid) and paid some of the lowest rates in the indusry. If they do move you to a hub you will be sharing rooms on overnights - if you get one at all.

Rumor has it PCL management is going to start making some meet and greet visits. Ask them the tough questions - like will you guarantee us we will stay in our bases and if not will you pay our moving expenses.

PCL pilots are not interested in a seat grab. What both pilot groups need is protection from management. History has shown time and time again that divided we will fail. The PCL pilot group understands that very clearly and is willing to do what it takes to unify the two groups. I only hope the Colgan pilots realize it before it is too late. You are not a family owned business anymore. Your lives are going to change - and in some cases change dramatily. Do you want to negotiate those changes or are you going to be dictated to? PCL would not be so heavily unionized if it did not desperatly need it. It is no accident every labor group except the mechanics is unionized - even the dispatchers. For your own sake get help.

 

[PCL_128]

Rumor has it PCL management is going to start making some meet and greet visits. Ask them the tough questions - like will you guarantee us we will stay in our bases and if not will you pay our moving expenses.

Although I agree with most of your post, I have to disagree with your advice here. These pilots at Colgan have zero protection right now, and Phil and friends are going to be on the lookout for union sympathizers. Having non-union pilots asking tough questions of management probably isn't the best idea. Phil will stop at nothing to crush anyone that he feels will be pro-union. My best advice is to not even go to these meet-and-greets with management. Pretend they aren't even happening. Anything you ask them will be analyzed and could be used against you. Don't trust these guys at all.

 

[redflyer65]

Nice post Sink Rate.

I challange Colgan pilots to do this. Ask Phil straight up about those tough questions. He stumbles when hit with stuff like that, and you get a feel for what he's really thinking.

Just like the other day during our confrence call, someone asked if PCL aircraft would ever be transfered to Colgan. There was a pause of over 10 seconds before they came up with a lame "we don't intend too". Well, we know how fast things can change.

ALPA so far has been silent in any public forum, but I guarantee you that there is plenty of work going on in the background. I think this is a very wise move. Don't jump to any conclussions, evaluate everything first. They are looking closely at the PCL pilot scope agreement, and at the same time seeing what can be done to help the Colgan pilots organize.

For those at Colgan, organizing is a process that doesn't happen overnight. It has to be done with the structure of the law and the RLA. If it is done wrong, the company will have grounds to throw the whole process out. Don't you think they would love to do that? Be patient. Things are in the works.

Phil is crazy with all of the recent garbage he's saying. Two companies that will always remain seperate. No one can transfer unless you want to start at the bottom. Denies whipsaw and aircraft transfers.

Oh by the way, let's have a party to celebrate these two companies. But why? If they are so seperate then what are we celebrating? Again, if seperate, what is there to celebrate for a PCL or Colgan pilot? NOTHING.
The only ones that gain anything from this are going to work in upper management at Nonconnah. For everyone else, prepare to be screwed.

The are cranking out some stong Kool-Aid.