Colgan-Buffalo crash...

[Flyer1015]

I feel bad for the girl. And to think, she could have held DTW -200 Captain if she was around!

The regional industry pressured her to be there that night. Even though she was married, she had moved out of her place at ORF to go back to her parents in SEA because she couldn't afford it anymore. The CVR is just horrifying to hear, but it's all the truth in the regional industry. She talks about Colgan constantly walking over her. She talks about how she'll try and fly just one more flight and get some rest in BUF, because if she calls in sick now, she has to pay for her own hotel and she can't afford it. These are things that shouldn't happen, but they do, it is the regional airline. ESPECIALLY the prop regionals, like Colgan and Great Lakes. You have the lowest paid regional pilots right there. And when people can't remove themselves from a flight because they can't afford to, it creates an untenable situation.

 

[bri5150]

And to think, she could have held DTW -200 Captain if she was around!

Might I suggest you delete that comment? That is pretty rude. You are suggesting that because of her apparent lack of skills (again what you are suggesting) that she wouldn't have deserved a 200 captain position. That is what the comment sounds like, and you really need to get over this or move on. Have you put in apps at other regional carriers in which you think you will get a quicker upgrade yet?

 

[Inconceivable]

The "fault" in this doesn't lie with the FO retracting the flaps, it lies on 1. both pilots for not minding the store and letting the plane get too slow and 2. the captain inexplicably pulling on a shaking yoke.

Think about it from the FO: you change the flap setting, the yoke starts shaking, and the captain hauls the yoke back into his chest. Somewhere in the back of your head you remember a short video in basic indoc about tail plane stalls and how recovery is opposite a normal stall...IE you pull instead of push. You also remember something about tail stalls occurring immediately following a configuration change. You happen to forget the part where a tail stall doesn't follow a shaker/pusher, and results in a sharp nose-down attitude with the yoke snapping forward.

You're tired, its late, and suddenly all hell is breaking loose around you...right after you changed flap settings.

What would YOU do?

Bottom line is it wouldn't have gotten to the point where flaps were a saving or damning thing if the captain had firewalled the power levers and pushed the nose forward, OR if either pilot had been paying attention to their rapidly decaying airspeed.

If you're honestly too tired to safely accomplish a flight, CALL FATIGUED - end of story. Same if you are too sick to fly. Doing so is your professional responsibility...regardless of hotel situation or pilot pushing chief pilots or loss of pay or whatever.

Best post ever on the subject

 

[Inconceivable]

Flew the ATR for a couple of years and tail-plane stalls were never part of our curriculum. So I'd agree that unless she studied advanced aerodynamics during her time commuting between the west and east coast at 2AM, she had no idea.

I did fly the ATR - and I nearly tail-stalled one into STL in 1995. Our lives were saved by putting the flaps back up...after losing 500' at the marker in a matter of seconds. Since 1998 many regional airlines, including Colgan and Pinnacle have covered the topic, albeit briefly, in indoc.

It is a much sadder statement of aviation professionalism in this country that pilots consider this to be in the category of "advanced aerodynamics."

 

[Inconceivable]

Erm, not passing judgement but how in the green hell was he hired?

I know I'm STILL a bit of a green-horn but don't companies even look at PRIA when they hire you?

Until this accident a PRIA report showed certificates held, date of issue of the most recent certificate, medical certificate, and accidents and violations within the past seven years. That's all. That's why airlines like SWA asked you to put a post it flag in your logbook for each checkride - sep that they can see if you have had to get retraining following a failure.

In Renslow's defense, while he probably lacked the right stuff, it is also a strong statement on how we train for ratings in this country: minimum hours for the minimum standard of competence. No one learns how to fly an airplane anymore - just how to perform a sequence of practical tasks.

 

[Flyprdu]

You are suggesting that because of her apparent lack of skills (again what you are suggesting) that she wouldn't have deserved a 200 captain position.

Her qualifications and skills are not the reason why she doesn't deserve a -200 spot. The fact that all of Colgan gets to bypass Pinnacle FOs who have more longevity is why she doesn't deserve it.

Don't be so sensitive. Need a hug?

 

[IBNAV8R]

Stop blaming pilots when they make mistakes because, one day it will be your turn.

Did you REALLY mean to say that? That's kind of like saying, "He put the gun to his head and pulled the trigger. But it wasn't really his fault. He was really a good guy, don't blame him. He missed his nap and besides, one day, one of us might accidentally put a loaded gun to our head."

No doubt fatigue was a factor and should be addressed. But, make no mistake, our hero royally screwed the pooch. To lay blame elsewhere is to resign to the thought that we have no control over our own proficiency, condition, ability and actions. And, if you think that, you REALLY need to stay FAR away from the controls of an aircraft.

This isn't a job where the worst thing that could happen is getting yourself fired or even getting yourself killed. Now you are ultimately responsible for other lives in an imperfect world. Man up or get the **** out!!!

Look at the NTSB animation. Look very closely. The airplane had flying energy and was recoverable right up until the last wing drop - Yes, even with the flaps up. All he had to do was let go of the yoke for a moment and recover - something any 20-hour student should be able to do.

Even AFTER the last wing drop, he had flying speed almost 1,000' above the impact point. It could be argued that recovery was STILL possible (albeit unlikely). From the animation, it appears as though our hero quit trying to recover at this point except to hold full aft yoke all the way to impact.

 

[Singlecoil]

So let me get this straight.
The stall warning goes off, the stick shaker activates, captain applies full power and pulls 2 g's establishing a positive rate of climb. Don't the flaps typically come up at some point during a stall recovery? Say, after a positive rate of climb has been established? Wouldn't that improve your climb performance and help you clear any obstacles?
You're saying she should have known the captain was going to freeze with the yoke in his chest and left the flaps down?
Whatever. She should have caught the airspeed decaying and called that out for sure, but to blame her for retracting the flaps at that point in the maneuver doesn't make sense to me.

 

[CFI2766]

CFI FOI stuff: The Law of Primacy.

What she learned first is what she retained. Somewhere along the way, whether in a 172, or perhaps a PA44, she learned that you raise flaps during a stall recovery. While under stress, and while concluding that the Captain was incapable of directing her to perform the actions her brain told her were necessary to recover from the stall, she raised the flaps.

Clearly an indefensible response, but probable.

She definitely didn't wake up that morning and decide to contribute to the deaths of 49 people and the destruction of a multi-million dollar asset. This accident boils down to a study of human factors and multiple, complementary causes.

 

[Flying Illini]

You would have raised the flaps, too? Did I read that right?

Probably a very good chance that I would have reacted exactly as she did, can't say for sure though as I wasn't there. Read BU's post, #12 if you are wondering why. He did a much better job of painting the picture than I ever could.

 

[bri5150]

Her qualifications and skills are not the reason why she doesn't deserve a -200 spot. The fact that all of Colgan gets to bypass Pinnacle FOs who have more longevity is why she doesn't deserve it.

Don't be so sensitive. Need a hug?

No, I don't. I just don't respect his comment and think it is offensive. She is dead. No need to use her in his quest to find new ways to complain about the Pinnacle Holdings SLI.

 

[Abernathy]

Probably a very good chance that I would have reacted exactly as she did, can't say for sure though as I wasn't there. Read BU's post, #12 if you are wondering why. He did a much better job of painting the picture than I ever could.

-You're flying in icing conditions
-You call for flaps and the captain fails to advance the power levers because he's obviously not flying/paying attention
-Speed doesn't just bleed off, it hemorrhages off
-Stick shaker goes off

And YOU'RE instinct---how you would have "reacted exactly"--- if I'm understanding you correctly, would be to raise the flaps?

 

[BoilerUP]

-You're flying in icing conditions
-You call for flaps and the captain fails to advance the power levers because he's obviously not flying/paying attention
-Speed doesn't just bleed off, it hemorrhages off
-Stick shaker goes off

And YOU'RE instinct---how you would have "reacted exactly"--- if I'm understanding you correctly, would be to raise the flaps?

22:16:23.5
HOT-1 flaps fifteen before landing checklist.
22:16:26.0
CAM [sound similar to flap handle movement]
22:16:26.6
HOT-2 uhhh.
22:16:27.4
CAM [sound similar to stick shaker lasting 6.7 seconds]

The shaker fired after the FO selected Flaps 15. Obviously neither pilot was paying attention to WTF the airplane was doing, because if they were, one or the other would have noticed the rapidly decaying airspeed.

It would be human nature to undo an action that seemingly causes a negative consequence, would it not?

To muddy the waters more, the CA inexplicably had the shaking yoke buried in his chest - a textbook procedure for tailplane stall recovery, along with putting the airplane in its previous configuration.

Obviously in hindsight we can say they weren't experiencing a tailplane stall and retracting the flaps was a move that took matters from bad to worse...but their fate was sealed well before that point due to crew inattention and an ass-backward attempt at stall recovery by Capt. Renslow.

 

[JA PILOT]

Inattention based on Fatigue and Get-Home-itis!!!
Make sure this will not happen again. Call out and have a stronger petition to have the rest requirements changed.
Everyone should contact their local media to have attention drawn to Fatigue and not the solid blame on Renslow prior training record.
I have driven home once from a long day at work and I should have pulled over to sleep. However I was only 13 miles from home to get into my bed.
Could have pulled over but the temperature that night was 15 degrees.
Would have ended up crashed under a tracker trailer, and remembered just looking at its break lights. It would have been the end for me.
Unfortunately, both pilots did not realize how fatigue will effect an ass-backwards attempt at flying an airplane or driving a car.

 

[Flying Illini]

-You're flying in icing conditions
-You call for flaps and the captain fails to advance the power levers because he's obviously not flying/paying attention
-Speed doesn't just bleed off, it hemorrhages off
-Stick shaker goes off

And YOU'RE instinct---how you would have "reacted exactly"--- if I'm understanding you correctly, would be to raise the flaps?

Why is this so hard to understand? This is basic human nature stuff, not "pilot stuff." See BU's post quoted below. Keep in mind that the FO wasn't paying any attention to the airspeed either so in her mind, before selecting Flaps 15 everything was great. After selecting Flaps 15 things were very, VERY bad. My first and immediate thought process would be to undo what I had just done that appeared to cause the problem. Maybe that was her very FIRST thought too but maybe (and we'll never know) before acting she then looked over to see her CA initiating a tailplane stall recovery and then her first instinct to undo the last action is now confirmed so she proceeded.

22:16:23.5
HOT-1 flaps fifteen before landing checklist.
22:16:26.0
CAM [sound similar to flap handle movement]
22:16:26.6
HOT-2 uhhh.
22:16:27.4
CAM [sound similar to stick shaker lasting 6.7 seconds]

The shaker fired after the FO selected Flaps 15. Obviously neither pilot was paying attention to WTF the airplane was doing, because if they were, one or the other would have noticed the rapidly decaying airspeed.

It would be human nature to undo an action that seemingly causes a negative consequence, would it not?

To muddy the waters more, the CA inexplicably had the shaking yoke buried in his chest - a textbook procedure for tailplane stall recovery, along with putting the airplane in its previous configuration.

Obviously in hindsight we can say they weren't experiencing a tailplane stall and retracting the flaps was a move that took matters from bad to worse...but their fate was sealed well before that point due to crew inattention and an ass-backward attempt at stall recovery by Capt. Renslow.

Paul, I'm glad you're here as you articulate my thoughts better than I do!