Colgan-Buffalo crash...

[dojetdriver]

Cali, Columbia was a human factors nightmare that demonstrated no matter how much technology enhances safety. Automation can also become a silent killer if not used (monitored) properly.

Agreed, but the point was what I bolded. It was a long error chain combined with human factors that led to the demise of BOTH AA in Columbia as well as Colgan.

Point being, it wasn't just ONE thing led to the crashes. In BOTH cases, garbage in equaled garbage out.

 

[Baronman]

Guys it's Colombia ( a country), not Columbia ( a small town in South Carolina).

 

[Leroy Smith]

1- All this arguing about the flaps is silly. Maybe they would have lost a little more altitude or taken a little longer to recover- that's it. Was it the wrong thing to do, yes- but who gives a ____! Heck, she probably could have shut down an engine and they still could have landed safely had he not done what he did. She committed one BIG error - didnt catch the speed bleeding off and smack him upside the head before he killed them all. Always assume that person next to you is going to screw the pooch at any moment and hope to god that they are doing the same!!

2- Those who argue that CFI experience is irrelevant need look no further than this. A thousand hours of pattern work, slow-flight, and stall practice would have done him a lot of good. A bunch of time in weather with instrument students in an older PA-, C- or BE with no autopilot would probably have been a good thing too...

3- There is little to no opportunity for most pilots starting out to really learn stuff. GA is dying or almost dead. The independent flight schools are dying or dead. The career track is the only way to go. Why instruct, tow banners, traffic watch, etc (if you can even find one of these jobs- and hauling checks is gone) when it is easier to get a RJ job with less time. "The Program" does not teach any deep knowledge of how to fly. It checks the boxes, runs through the curriculum and teaches the procedures. The airlines love these folks because the have an easier time getting through new-hire training and checking off that set of boxes. All is well as long as everything goes according to plan.

There is no ready solution. Heck, most of the instructors at the puppy mills are products of the same institutions. And their instructors were also, and so on. Some of the extra stuff, the weird stuff that isnt in the curriculum and only comes from seeing unexpected stuff happen in airplanes, gets lost with each generation. The highly motivated ones will see that there are gaps, and do the extra effort on their own and be just fine. But for every one of them, there will be many who are lazy or just dont even realize what they are not learning. And the system makes no differentiation between them. This is a situation that is slowly creating a big underlying problem in aviation. At my company, there seem to be more and more CYA memos, tech briefs and SOP changes coming out micro-managing procedures, trying to eliminate the need for actual understanding of what we are doing and the use of actual common sense. It would seem that both are lacking at times (managements performance is another topic altogether). That is in lieu of attempting to increase hiring standards, training standards, or just plain old better "pilot stuff".

That is some ramble-on-when-I-was-a-kid-I-walked-to-school-uphill-both-ways-in-the-snow-stuff, oh well- YMMV

"My mind is aglow with whirling, trasncient nodes of thought, careening through a cosmic vapor of invention"

"Ditto"

 

[xjlifer]

1- All this arguing about the flaps is silly. Maybe they would have lost a little more altitude or taken a little longer to recover- that's it. Was it the wrong thing to do, yes- but who gives a ____! Heck, she probably could have shut down an engine and they still could have landed safely had he not done what he did. She committed one BIG error - didnt catch the speed bleeding off and smack him upside the head before he killed them all. Always assume that person next to you is going to screw the pooch at any moment and hope to god that they are doing the same!!

2- Those who argue that CFI experience is irrelevant need look no further than this. A thousand hours of pattern work, slow-flight, and stall practice would have done him a lot of good. A bunch of time in weather with instrument students in an older PA-, C- or BE with no autopilot would probably have been a good thing too...

3- There is little to no opportunity for most pilots starting out to really learn stuff. GA is dying or almost dead. The independent flight schools are dying or dead. The career track is the only way to go. Why instruct, tow banners, traffic watch, etc (if you can even find one of these jobs- and hauling checks is gone) when it is easier to get a RJ job with less time. "The Program" does not teach any deep knowledge of how to fly. It checks the boxes, runs through the curriculum and teaches the procedures. The airlines love these folks because the have an easier time getting through new-hire training and checking off that set of boxes. All is well as long as everything goes according to plan.

There is no ready solution. Heck, most of the instructors at the puppy mills are products of the same institutions. And their instructors were also, and so on. Some of the extra stuff, the weird stuff that isnt in the curriculum and only comes from seeing unexpected stuff happen in airplanes, gets lost with each generation. The highly motivated ones will see that there are gaps, and do the extra effort on their own and be just fine. But for every one of them, there will be many who are lazy or just dont even realize what they are not learning. And the system makes no differentiation between them. This is a situation that is slowly creating a big underlying problem in aviation. At my company, there seem to be more and more CYA memos, tech briefs and SOP changes coming out micro-managing procedures, trying to eliminate the need for actual understanding of what we are doing and the use of actual common sense. It would seem that both are lacking at times (managements performance is another topic altogether). That is in lieu of attempting to increase hiring standards, training standards, or just plain old better "pilot stuff".

That is some ramble-on-when-I-was-a-kid-I-walked-to-school-uphill-both-ways-in-the-snow-stuff, oh well- YMMV

"My mind is aglow with whirling, trasncient nodes of thought, careening through a cosmic vapor of invention"

"Ditto"

I agree...there is value in doing. Being scared in a aircraft as a CFI because I screwed up or let the student go to far had value.

Instead of 10 hours of hasmat training or PRM videos or Security training maybe we should have 10 hours of fly the plane with all the magic sh!t turned off training.

 

[gern_blanston]

It's amazing what fatigue can do to a person's judgment.

More like it's amazing what poor judgement can do to a planeload of people.

 

[Flyprdu]

More like it's amazing what poor judgement can do to a planeload of people.

When people say judgement, I typically think of aeronautical decision making. ADM didn't cause this, it was loss of SA.

So please try to be accurate when you're being snarky.

 

[cfi on the fly]

Exactly

1- All this arguing about the flaps is silly. Maybe they would have lost a little more altitude or taken a little longer to recover- that's it. Was it the wrong thing to do, yes- but who gives a ____! Heck, she probably could have shut down an engine and they still could have landed safely had he not done what he did. She committed one BIG error - didnt catch the speed bleeding off and smack him upside the head before he killed them all. Always assume that person next to you is going to screw the pooch at any moment and hope to god that they are doing the same!!

2- Those who argue that CFI experience is irrelevant need look no further than this. A thousand hours of pattern work, slow-flight, and stall practice would have done him a lot of good. A bunch of time in weather with instrument students in an older PA-, C- or BE with no autopilot would probably have been a good thing too...

3- There is little to no opportunity for most pilots starting out to really learn stuff. GA is dying or almost dead. The independent flight schools are dying or dead. The career track is the only way to go. Why instruct, tow banners, traffic watch, etc (if you can even find one of these jobs- and hauling checks is gone) when it is easier to get a RJ job with less time. "The Program" does not teach any deep knowledge of how to fly. It checks the boxes, runs through the curriculum and teaches the procedures. The airlines love these folks because the have an easier time getting through new-hire training and checking off that set of boxes. All is well as long as everything goes according to plan.

There is no ready solution. Heck, most of the instructors at the puppy mills are products of the same institutions. And their instructors were also, and so on. Some of the extra stuff, the weird stuff that isnt in the curriculum and only comes from seeing unexpected stuff happen in airplanes, gets lost with each generation. The highly motivated ones will see that there are gaps, and do the extra effort on their own and be just fine. But for every one of them, there will be many who are lazy or just dont even realize what they are not learning. And the system makes no differentiation between them. This is a situation that is slowly creating a big underlying problem in aviation. At my company, there seem to be more and more CYA memos, tech briefs and SOP changes coming out micro-managing procedures, trying to eliminate the need for actual understanding of what we are doing and the use of actual common sense. It would seem that both are lacking at times (managements performance is another topic altogether). That is in lieu of attempting to increase hiring standards, training standards, or just plain old better "pilot stuff".

That is some ramble-on-when-I-was-a-kid-I-walked-to-school-uphill-both-ways-in-the-snow-stuff, oh well- YMMV

"My mind is aglow with whirling, trasncient nodes of thought, careening through a cosmic vapor of invention"

"Ditto"

Well stated and matches my observations and experiences.

 

[IBNAV8R]

When people say judgement, I typically think of aeronautical decision making. ADM didn't cause this, it was loss of SA.

So please try to be accurate when you're being snarky.

If fatigue was indeed the cause, as many on here would aver, then this accident was CAUSED by bad ADM on the part of the crew.

Take your pick (or combination thereof):

Competence - crew
Situational awareness - crew
Decision making - crew

 

[Singlecoil]

I think the NTSB's conclusions are pretty accurate. They don't mention the flaps, because that is a red herring.

3.2 Probable Cause
The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of this accident was the captain’s inappropriate response to the activation of the stick shaker, which led to an aerodynamic stall from which the airplane did not recover. Contributing to the accident were (1) the flight crew’s failure to monitor airspeed in relation to the rising position of the lowspeed cue, (2) the flight crew’s failure to adhere to sterile cockpit procedures, (3) the captain’s
failure to effectively manage the flight, and (4) Colgan Air’s inadequate procedures for airspeed selection and management during approaches in icing conditions.

 

[BUDDHA145]

Well it says Aerodynamical stall!! I'm sure that includes the Capt stall technic that he use and the fo flap selection.... but fatigue oh noooo nooooo they where properly rested I guess!!! :/ Freaking FAA doesn't want to deal with that can of worms.

 

[Baronman]

Well it says Aerodynamical stall!! I'm sure that includes the Capt stall technic that he use and the fo flap selection.... but fatigue oh noooo nooooo they where properly rested I guess!!! :/ Freaking FAA doesn't want to deal with that can of worms.

Guess what, we still have crewmembers doing transcontinental commutes to rest a few hours in a hotel/crashpad/crewroom and then do a 12 hr duty day. Anything to spend a few more hours at home.

 

[BUDDHA145]

Guess what, we still have crewmembers doing transcontinental commutes to rest a few hours in a hotel/crashpad/crewroom and then do a 12 hr duty day. Anything to spend a few more hours at home.

Oh I believe you!!! I'm a commuter my self...

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Some guys can handle commuting transcon and do a cracking good job. Others? Yawning all damn day, nodding off, and doing the bare minimum and not giving a darn. It all depends on the person, but I find flying with commuters is not all that great, especially when they feel the need to inform you on leg 1 that they're gonna make the 7:30pm come heck or high water.

 

[kmox29]

Well it says Aerodynamical stall!! I'm sure that includes the Capt stall technic that he use and the fo flap selection.... but fatigue oh noooo nooooo they where properly rested I guess!!! :/ Freaking FAA doesn't want to deal with that can of worms.

Since I suffered through your horrid grammer, I felt I had to respond. If memory serves me correctly, the FO commuted in right before the trip. If that's the case, what could improved FAA rest requirements have done to prevent her fatigue?

I'm not saying that FAA rest rules are adequate...in fact, they are LONG overdue for revision. But it would seem that you are upset that the FAA isn't doing something about commuting, which is something NO ONE wants.

 

[J.Otto]

irony

Since I suffered through your horrid grammer, I felt I had to respond.

grammar!

 

[BUDDHA145]

grammar!

Hahaha!!!! Good one....

 

[kmox29]

grammar!

D'OH! I hate it when that happens.

 

[kmox29]

Hahaha!!!! Good one....

Yes, that was. I misspelled one word whereas your entire post was written by Hooked on Phonics. Anyhow, my question remains unanswered: with respect to your challenge, what could the FAA have done about fatigue on the Colgan flight?

 

[xjgearbtch]

Make it legal (as recommended by NASA research) to nap while in cruise.

 

[altimaklr]

If you need to sleep on a flight from EWR to BUF you probably shouldn't take the flight