Colgan ALPA... Get the cards in NOW!!

[JoeMerchant]

I just had a meeting with most of the NWA reps last week, and the topic of a PID was discussed. And guess what, Johnny? They were the ones who brought it up! There is significant support for such an idea on the new MEC, and we'll see what happens over the next few years. With McClain gone, I think we'll have much better luck with family scope, provided the Red Tail regional MECs are willing to compromise and share the burden. If we don't make the same mistake that the DCI carriers did (refusal to compromise and share the burden), then I think we'll be able to make some real progress on this. These things take time, John.

1. What mistake did ASA and CMR make?

2. What do you mean by "compromise and share the burden"?

3. My understanding is that the NWA MEC just shot down the PID resolution...... comments????

4. How much time do you want? ALPA has been studying the scope problem since 1995.... 12 years isn't long enough.....

 

[PCL_128]

DW's base compensation was $372,728.00 per year.

There you go, John, you finally go the correct figure!!! Nevermind the fact that you were $50,000 off in your original post.

Go ahead and look for yourself

I don't need to look, John. I was there at the BOD in October when a nearly identical resolution was passed for Captain Prater's compensation. As it's been for several years now, the President's compensation is based upon the average of the highest three ALPA carrier's payrates and maximum hours he could have flown under those contracts. An override is provided because you have to provide some sort of incentive for someone to give up their entire life for at least four years for that job. You know how much of an ALPA "cheerleader" I am, but even I wouldn't take that job.

 

[JoeMerchant]

There you go, John, you finally go the correct figure!!! Nevermind the fact that you were $50,000 off in your original post.

I wasn't "$50,000 off". The total compensation comes to $502,728.00 per year. I was wrong because it is actually more.....

Here was your quote:

"As usual, you've clearly displayed your utter ignorance. Captain Woerth never received anything close to $420,000 per year"

$502,728.00 per year in total compensation is nothing "close to $420,000 per year" in your mind? You are starting to sound like a liberal PCL..... Fuzzy math I guess.....

I don't need to look, John. I was there at the BOD in October when a nearly identical resolution was passed for Captain Prater's compensation. As it's been for several years now, the President's compensation is based upon the average of the highest three ALPA carrier's payrates and maximum hours he could have flown under those contracts. An override is provided because you have to provide some sort of incentive for someone to give up their entire life for at least four years for that job. You know how much of an ALPA "cheerleader" I am, but even I wouldn't take that job.

For $502,728.00 per year and a pension of $149,091.20 I bet you would....

Do you know that the formula was changed after 911? It used to be an average of the highest 6 ALPA carriers, but that was changed at the 2002 BOD because of all the paycuts after 911.... after all we can't have the poor ALPA president feel the effects that the membership has felt now can we....

Skywest and Colgan pilots are you seeing how ALPA works....

 

[PCL_128]

1. What mistake did ASA and CMR make?

Absolute refusal to compromise during the PID discussions. There has to be give and take on both sides. I'll defer specifics to Occam since he was actually there during that BOD.

2. What do you mean by "compromise and share the burden"?

Many regional pilots expect mainline MECs to sacrifice unbelievable amounts of negotiating capital to achieve a pure single list with full integration. When these pilots are told that there might be a long-term fence as part of the deal (similar to former Republic pilots fenced out of the widebodies for years at NWA), then those pilots get pissed and demand an immediate and complete integration without fences, and of course, they refuse to consider the idea of a staple. This simply takes too much negotiating capital (not to mention that it's just ridiculous for a 20-year MSA or PCL Captain to think that he deserves an A320 Captain seat at NWA). We have to think outside of the box on this and come up with a phased integration that won't require as much negotiating capital to achieve.

3. My understanding is that the NWA MEC just shot down the PID resolution...... comments????

There hasn't been an official vote on requesting an actual PID. The conversations I had with the NWA reps were in reference to accomplishing this later on down the road, not immediately in reference to the scope grievance. I suspect that the scope grievance will be settled by recouping some of the concessions.

4. How much time do you want? ALPA has been studying the scope problem since 1995.... 12 years isn't long enough.....

I don't much care about what mistakes have been made over the past 12 years. Those mistakes have been made, and it's time to move on. (I would go back further, by the way. The scope mistakes started when the first RJ appeared at a feeder carrier) I'm not looking back at those mistakes. I'm looking towards the future and what we can do to fix the problems. Complaining about the past and filing lawsuits will accomplish nothing. Talking with mainline MECs, building bridges and relationships, and thinking outside of the box is the way to go. I'll be doing that while you're whining and complaining and sending checks to that hack Haber.

 

[PCL_128]

I wasn't "$50,000 off". The total compensation comes to $502,728.00 per year. I was wrong because it is actually more.....

Here was your quote:

"As usual, you've clearly displayed your utter ignorance. Captain Woerth never received anything close to $420,000 per year"

$502,728.00 per year in total compensation is nothing "close to $420,000 per year" in your mind? You are starting to sound like a liberal PCL..... Fuzzy math I guess.....

Alright, John, in that case, I must have made about $130,000 last year by your way of thinking. After all, since you're including Captain Woerth's benefits, hotel costs, car rentals, phone/internet bills, meal costs, etc... in his "compensation," I guess we should include that when we talk about our own compensation, right? How much did you "make" last year, John? $150,000 in "total compensation?" Don't be a twit. Captain Woerth's real compensation was only $372,000 (including Presidential override), because no one in their right mind would include expenses as "compensation." You know, unless you're some sort of anti-union weasil like those guys over at Unionfacts.

For $502,728.00 per year and a pension of $149,091.20 I bet you would....

Sorry, not worth it.

Do you know that the formula was changed after 911? It used to be an average of the highest 6 ALPA carriers, but that was changed at the 2002 BOD because of all the paycuts after 911.... after all we can't have the poor ALPA president feel the effects that the membership has felt now can we....

Yes, I'm well aware that the formula was changed. As far as I'm concerned, the change didn't go far enough. The President actually deserves that $500k figure that you're throwing around. It's a shame that he doesn't get anything close to that, considering all of the work that he does.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Absolute refusal to compromise during the PID discussions. There has to be give and take on both sides. I'll defer specifics to Occam since he was actually there during that BOD.

Actually it wasn't at a BOD, it was an EB..... I guess you don't really know as much as you claim... you weren't there were you? You might want to get the CMR/ASA side of it also....

Many regional pilots expect mainline MECs to sacrifice unbelievable amounts of negotiating capital to achieve a pure single list with full integration. When these pilots are told that there might be a long-term fence as part of the deal (similar to former Republic pilots fenced out of the widebodies for years at NWA), then those pilots get pissed and demand an immediate and complete integration without fences, and of course, they refuse to consider the idea of a staple. This simply takes too much negotiating capital (not to mention that it's just ridiculous for a 20-year MSA or PCL Captain to think that he deserves an A320 Captain seat at NWA). We have to think outside of the box on this and come up with a phased integration that won't require as much negotiating capital to achieve.

Many mainline pilots feel as if they should have super-seniority over their regional counterparts... That isn't right either.... I don't think I should bump a 767 pilot out of his seat, why does a mainline pilot think he should flow back to the top of an RJ or ATR list? That is a double standard.... Why did American and CAL flowbacks go to the top of the regional list?

There hasn't been an official vote on requesting an actual PID. The conversations I had with the NWA reps were in reference to accomplishing this later on down the road, not immediately in reference to the scope grievance. I suspect that the scope grievance will be settled by recouping some of the concessions.

Here is what NuGuy said:

"Too bad the MEC just put off the single carrier resolution at the MEC meeting. That would have rattled some cages in Eagan."

I don't much care about what mistakes have been made over the past 12 years. Those mistakes have been made, and it's time to move on. (I would go back further, by the way. The scope mistakes started when the first RJ appeared at a feeder carrier) I'm not looking back at those mistakes. I'm looking towards the future and what we can do to fix the problems. Complaining about the past and filing lawsuits will accomplish nothing. Talking with mainline MECs, building bridges and relationships, and thinking outside of the box is the way to go. I'll be doing that while you're whining and complaining and sending checks to that hack Haber.

You need to learn from the mistakes of the past if you are going to prevent the same mistakes from being made in the future. You keep building those bridges and let me know how that works out for you.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Alright, John, in that case, I must have made about $130,000 last year by your way of thinking. After all, since you're including Captain Woerth's benefits, hotel costs, car rentals, phone/internet bills, meal costs, etc... in his "compensation," I guess we should include that when we talk about our own compensation, right? How much did you "make" last year, John? $150,000 in "total compensation?" Don't be a twit. Captain Woerth's real compensation was only $372,000 (including Presidential override), because no one in their right mind would include expenses as "compensation." You know, unless you're some sort of anti-union weasil like those guys over at Unionfacts.

How much expense reimbursement did you get from ALPA to come up with $130,000 per year? Even with per diem, I only made about $95,000 last year.... DW's expense reimbursements were about what I made total last year....keep defending it PCL, and turn even more people off to ALPA....

Yes, I'm well aware that the formula was changed. As far as I'm concerned, the change didn't go far enough. The President actually deserves that $500k figure that you're throwing around. It's a shame that he doesn't get anything close to that, considering all of the work that he does.

Keep saying that PCL, and you will simply turn off those that you are trying to recruit.... When regional pilots start off at $20K, they will have a hard time understanding why the President of ALPA makes over $500,000 per year with a pension of $149K per year. Even the senior most regional pilot doesn't make what DW will receive in pension alone..... You aren't going to win converts that way...

 

[PCL_128]

Actually it wasn't at a BOD, it was an EB..... I guess you don't really know as much as you claim... you weren't there were you?

No, I wasn't there as I stated in my post. But, discussions about a PID, and brand scope in general, took place at the BOD (I think it was the 2000 BOD). The official request is made to the Executive Council, not EB, and they make the determination. In the case of DCI/DAL, the EC determined that ALPA merger policy didn't apply, therefore the PID was denied. This subject was discussed at the BOD, where the ideas of the BSIC and the JSCs were acted upon. After you learn the difference between the EC and EB, get back to me.

You might want to get the CMR/ASA side of it also....

I have.

"Too bad the MEC just put off the single carrier resolution at the MEC meeting. That would have rattled some cages in Eagan."

The discussion of a Single Carrier Petition (not the same thing as a PID) took place at the MEC meeting this past week, but the MEC decided to defer a final decision on it until the December meeting.

You need to learn from the mistakes of the past if you are going to prevent the same mistakes from being made in the future.

Agreed. I've learned those lessons, and I've moved on. Your obsession with those past mistakes is holding you back from making progress in the future. Not good.

 

[PCL_128]

How much expense reimbursement did you get from ALPA to come up with $130,000 per year? Even with per diem, I only made about $95,000 last year....

If you'd actually done your job during your term in office then you might actually understand how FPL works. Most employers have to spend an average of 30-40% over your salary to pay for your benefits (medical, dental, vision, life, LTD, etc...) ALPA has to reimburse employers for these costs also. When I take $1000 worth of FPL, our MEC actually has to pay the company $1400 to cover those benefits costs. The "compensation" figure you see includes those benefits costs. So, using your figure of $95,000 last year, your FPL reimbursements if you were on full-time FPL would have been $133,000. After that, you'd have to add hotels, phone/internet, meals, taxis, etc... to come up with your "total compensation" figure as far as the DOL is concerned for union officers.

You aren't going to win converts that way...

Most Colgan and Skywest pilots I talk to don't even bring up this subject. They simply don't care. I guess they just don't have the same case of penis-envy that you do. "Duane makes more money than me!!! That's not fair!!!"

 

[JoeMerchant]

No, I wasn't there as I stated in my post. But, discussions about a PID, and brand scope in general, took place at the BOD (I think it was the 2000 BOD). The official request is made to the Executive Council, not EB, and they make the determination. In the case of DCI/DAL, the EC determined that ALPA merger policy didn't apply, therefore the PID was denied. This subject was discussed at the BOD, where the ideas of the BSIC and the JSCs were acted upon. After you learn the difference between the EC and EB, get back to me.

Your right, it was the EC, sorry I am typing too fast. It definately wasn't the BOD however... You are thinking of the 2002 BOD where the ASA/CMR/EGL resolutions were watered down into the useless BSIC.... How is that committee coming along....

The discussion of a Single Carrier Petition (not the same thing as a PID) took place at the MEC meeting this past week, but the MEC decided to defer a final decision on it until the December meeting.

I would expect that you and the NWA MEC would understand that a single carrier petition is meaningless since all of you are already represented by ALPA... oh well so much for faith in the system....

Defer until December..... WHY? Politicians afraid of making a decision??? Keep believing in the system PCL.... you will be disappointed....

Agreed. I've learned those lessons, and I've moved on. Your obsession with those past mistakes is holding you back from making progress in the future. Not good.

No, by the looks of things at the RedTail "family", ALPA hasn't learned from their past mistakes..... We are doomed to repeat the failures of the past....

 

[JoeMerchant]

If you'd actually done your job during your term in office then you might actually understand how FPL works. Most employers have to spend an average of 30-40% over your salary to pay for your benefits (medical, dental, vision, life, LTD, etc...) ALPA has to reimburse employers for these costs also. When I take $1000 worth of FPL, our MEC actually has to pay the company $1400 to cover those benefits costs. The "compensation" figure you see includes those benefits costs. So, using your figure of $95,000 last year, your FPL reimbursements if you were on full-time FPL would have been $133,000. After that, you'd have to add hotels, phone/internet, meals, taxis, etc... to come up with your "total compensation" figure as far as the DOL is concerned for union officers.

Oh I understand how the system works PCL, that is why I am such a sceptic.... I have seen it from the inside.... Are you going to tell me that DW had to pay for his medical and dental out of that compensation package? You're really stretching now..... Colgan guys are you paying attention to the smoke and mirrors...

Most Colgan and Skywest pilots I talk to don't even bring up this subject. They simply don't care. I guess they just don't have the same case of penis-envy that you do. "Duane makes more money than me!!! That's not fair!!!"

It isn't "penis-envy", it is accountability. ALPA has none.... The President of ALPA should not make that much during the worst period of pay for airline pilots..... Defending it just makes it harder to recruit more members.... He didn't earn it pure and simple....

 

[PCL_128]

Your right, it was the EC, sorry I am typing too fast. It definately wasn't the BOD however... You are thinking of the 2002 BOD where the ASA/CMR/EGL resolutions were watered down into the useless BSIC.... How is that committee coming along....

Yep, that's exactly what I was thinking of. Thanks for the correction on the year. The BSIC wasn't useless. The problem was that the Association had too many problems post-9/11 to deal with. With bankruptcies and 1113 filings, BSIC and JSC work had to take a back seat for a little while. If the BSIC was created during good times, I think it would have been much more effective.

I would expect that you and the NWA MEC would understand that a single carrier petition is meaningless since all of you are already represented by ALPA... oh well so much for faith in the system....

I'm as perplexed by that as you are, but it comes straight from their "Hotline" message last week. I haven't talked with their reps since then, so I don't know what the story is. In any case, a single carrier filing has no relation to a PID.

Defer until December..... WHY? Politicians afraid of making a decision???

Nope. Simply too much other stuff going on would be my guess. The MEC had to make decisions about a very tough subject this week: targeted DC contributions. After the freezing of the pension plan, this was a very heated subject with much of the NWA pilot group. The MEC also had to elect a new EVP during this meeting, not to mention a whole host of other agenda items. Again, things don't happen overnight if you want to do them right.

No, by the looks of things at the RedTail "family", ALPA hasn't learned from their past mistakes..... We are doomed to repeat the failures of the past....

The new NWA MEC is not the one we're used to from the last few years. McClain and his idealogy are long gone. Take a look at the new NWA EVP and MEC Vice-Chair, Captain Ray Miller. I was at the joint Red Tail LEC meeting in DTW five years ago when the same Captain Miller proposed a resolution to start the process of a single seniority list with NWA, PCL, and MSA. He was also the most vocal opponent of the concessionary TA because of the creation of NewCo (aka Compass), and he publicly criticized McClain and the NC, and told pilots that he recommended a NO vote on the TA. The new MEC has no resemblance to the old one, so don't blame them for the actions taken under McClain's leadership.

 

[PCL_128]

Are you going to tell me that DW had to pay for his medical and dental out of that compensation package?

He didn't personally pay for it, it's just part of the package. When you look at the compensation figures for the National Officers, those numbers include reimbursement for benefits costs. That's part of how a $370k salary becomes over $500k in "total compensation."

He didn't earn it pure and simple....

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one. I think he earned it and far more.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Yep, that's exactly what I was thinking of. Thanks for the correction on the year. The BSIC wasn't useless. The problem was that the Association had too many problems post-9/11 to deal with. With bankruptcies and 1113 filings, BSIC and JSC work had to take a back seat for a little while. If the BSIC was created during good times, I think it would have been much more effective.

No problem, we all make mistakes You may still believe in the BSIC, but I don't. It was created at the 2002 BOD and it is almost 5 years later with the same problems that created the BSIC. Sorry, prove me wrong with some concrete results... until then I will consider it the same as the 1995 Scope committee... by the way Dan Ford made a presentation to that committee.... look it up....

I'm as perplexed by that as you are, but it comes straight from their "Hotline" message last week. I haven't talked with their reps since then, so I don't know what the story is. In any case, a single carrier filing has no relation to a PID.

I'm not perplexed, I suspect it is to look like they are actually doing something. You are a smart guy, and you know a single carrier petition is worthless in this situation as all groups are already ALPA. Don't blindly trust ALPA grasshopper...

Nope. Simply too much other stuff going on would be my guess. The MEC had to make decisions about a very tough subject this week: targeted DC contributions. After the freezing of the pension plan, this was a very heated subject with much of the NWA pilot group. The MEC also had to elect a new EVP during this meeting, not to mention a whole host of other agenda items. Again, things don't happen overnight if you want to do them right.



The new NWA MEC is not the one we're used to from the last few years. McClain and his idealogy are long gone. Take a look at the new NWA EVP and MEC Vice-Chair, Captain Ray Miller. I was at the joint Red Tail LEC meeting in DTW five years ago when the same Captain Miller proposed a resolution to start the process of a single seniority list with NWA, PCL, and MSA. He was also the most vocal opponent of the concessionary TA because of the creation of NewCo (aka Compass), and he publicly criticized McClain and the NC, and told pilots that he recommended a NO vote on the TA. The new MEC has no resemblance to the old one, so don't blame them for the actions taken under McClain's leadership.

More excuses PCL, if you want us sceptics to believe, you will need to provide results. So far I don't see any.... enough rhetoric, lets see some actual results..... Less talk, more action.......

McClain was one of the big "brand scope" people along with Wychor and Woerth... what happened.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

He didn't personally pay for it, it's just part of the package. When you look at the compensation figures for the National Officers, those numbers include reimbursement for benefits costs. That's part of how a $370k salary becomes over $500k in "total compensation."



We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one. I think he earned it and far more.

You need to look at it again... that $500k was compensation in addition to the health care, car, and retirement... Look at it again.... You are wrong....