Coca Cola

[bafanguy]

But quite a few corporate pilots have gone to JetBlue recently so you can never tell what someone you hire will do.

This quote raises an interesting question. I read a statement somewhere in here that their corp. flight dept had an "unspoken policy...." that no airline pilot would ever be hired...or words to that effect. If the reason for it is that the airline guys bolt, how does that policy jive with the quote above ?

I suppose you KNOW the airline guys will leave for recall but the non-airline guys MIGHT not ? But corp guys Do run to the airlines...I know, I flew with some. So, isn't it all just a crap shoot for the corp flt depts ?

Is this why corp flt depts want people "type rated, current, and XXXhours in type " to avoid loss of trng $$$ ? But, someone on these forums also said that no reputable corp operator asks people buy their own training. More of the same crap shoot ???

 

[AV1ATRX]

English - you're not getting any bites because we all already know the answer but most of these guys can't admit it.

 

[sleepy]

Okay, I'll ask the obvious again...

If it's not right in your eyes that a 2000TT woman is hired for a good corporate position, is it also not right that a 2000TT male is hired for a good corporate position? I'd love to read responses on your view of this.

Depends on what the 2000 hours of experience are flown in. 2000 hours in an F-15 over a 7 year career in the USAF would be a lot of experience. 2000 hours in the right seat of a C-172 as a CFI are a dime a dozen.

I think the most qualified person should be hire without regard to race, color, creed, national origin, etc................ I don't believe in quotas.

 

[bman]

Man this debate never ends.

The major point that is always overlooked in these arguements is the fact that ones resume does not always convey an individual's ability.

PIC vs SIC, 121 vs 91, 2000hrs vs 10000hrs, none of that is truely telling. We all know pilots whose resumes look impecable and yet their abilities never quite seem to match up to said resume.

Total time isn't telling either. Any CRM class will show you that the vast majority of airline crashes that happen, happen with high total time individuals in the pointy end of the airplane. Tienarief >sic<. Flying tigers in the phillipines, That L1011 in So. FL, all crashes with "Highly qualified" pilots at the controls.

All thru my career I have seen 22 year old whiz kids with golden hands. I have also seen high time guys with bad attitudes making stupid mistakes.

A low time military pilot (2000hrs) is considered the equivalent of a relatively high time commuter pilot (4000 to 5000hrs). Why? No amount of mil pilots are well trained, blah, blah is gonna convince me. For that matter they put all manner of pilots black, white, male, female in the cockpits of "highly complex" aircraft with less than 500 hours.

/one suppose if a guy can fly an F- whatever at <500 hrs then a 2000 hour pilot can easily fly a Gee Whiz, right?!

Regards

 

[Lear70]

English - you're not getting any bites because we all already know the answer but most of you guys can't admit it.

Yes, most of us DO know the answer, and it's not the one you want to hear. This debate isn't about male / female, it's about "minority" / non-"minority".

No one's beef on here is about a 2,000 hour pilot getting hired if all the candidates had 2,000 hours.

Unfortunately, in the final selection process, the recruiters are picking between two dozen WASP Male pilots with 6,000 to 9,000 hours and two or three minority pilots with 2,000 hours (1/3 to 1/4 the experience) and hiring the minority pilot to satisfy the EEOC BULLSH*T.

The fact is that in the times we live in, there is NO NEED for EEOC hiring guidelines in the aviation community. Whether it's a major airline, regional airline, charter flight department, corporate flight department, or Joe Bob's Banner Service, a flight department should hire the highest-qualified individual who is a good "corporate fit" for the organization, but that's just not how things work in this day and age.

I'm not saying that these so-called "minority" pilots should not use that to their advantage, h*ll, I would too, but they need to recognize that they are getting hired with lesser qualifications because of their minority status and not because their flying abilities and "experience" made them the better candidate.

Alternately, I could wish for a Presidential candidate who was pro-labor but also pro-firearm rights, with probably about the same odds of success.

Incidentally, most people who get hired at the really good corporate jobs do so through contacts and references - it's fairly rare that a long-term corp flight department will go outside the pool of referred talent, so hours become a bit of a non-issue with a certain basic level of proficiency.

p.s. In about 80 years at the current rate of minority population growth, my grandkids (WASP) will be minorities. Wonder if they'll have "preferential hiring" status...

 

[English]

Unfortunately, in the final selection process, the recruiters are picking between two dozen WASP Male pilots with 6,000 to 9,000 hours and two or three minority pilots with 2,000 hours (1/3 to 1/4 the experience) and hiring the minority pilot to satisfy the EEOC BULLSH*T.

Do you have proof of this? Because, I've talked to several low-time white male pilots that applied for the Coke jobs as well as other corporate jobs. Just where are you getting this information?

And, you didn't answer the question. Do you have a problem with a 2000TT white guy being hired by a Fortune 50 company?

 

[Lear70]

Sure I answered the question. My last paragraph:

Incidentally, most people who get hired at the really good corporate jobs do so through contacts and references - it's fairly rare that a long-term corp flight department will go outside the pool of referred talent, so hours become a bit of a non-issue with a certain basic level of proficiency.

I have no beef with a candidate who is male or female, black, white, yellow, red, or blue in the face from holding their breath waiting for furlough recall at USAirways who gets a job at a corporate outfit at 2,000 hours, as long as they were an internal referral with that flight time since they were competing with several hundred non-referred people with 3 or 4 times their qualifications.

Your question about proof is a non-sequitur. There are literally THOUSANDS of pilots with 5,000 to 15,000 hours of flight time furloughed from major carriers. Those pilots are most certainly applying for every decent jet and turboprop job that comes across the job boards. When it is an established fact that a minority eagle furloughee with around 2,000 hours was hired for one of these positions that undoubtedly had fierce competition from much more highly-experienced pilots, it answers your own question of proof.

Incidentally, I applied for that position myself the three times it's been advertised in the last 3 years, and never received the call for interview. Since my profile is deliberately devoid of info, my vitals for comparison are:

6,275 Total Time
4,875 Turbine
4,225 Jet
3,100 Jet PIC

PIC time in the 727, CL-65, and just about every Lear they made except the 45. Previous jet corporate and charter command experience flying multi-billionaires around this mudball we call Earth, and there were probably people with TWICE my experience banging on the door for that job!

Point is, yes, it is a fact that more experienced people were applying for the job, and no, I don't have a problem with a 2,000 hour person getting the job, as long as it was their referral that got it for them, and not their minority status...

 

[Lear70]

Ah, now it's clear. You applied and they didn't call you. Now you are miffed.

Sounded like sour grapes to me.

And the expected reply... Sour grapes? Hardly. If you'll take note, I never ONCE spoke badly of the company, its employees, or anyone who has posted here. I'm not miffed in the slightest, and am somewhat grateful they didn't call, as it seems that this position would not have been a good corporate fit for me.

I'm left seat in a CRJ after being permanently furloughed from a 727 command position and would only leave for a career gig somewhere else, which is why I apply selectively to outstanding corporate flight departments. I give these facts only as a basis for comparison for people who have very limited experience in the aviation community and who are in need of education.

Again, someone who can't debate the points and would rather sling mud.

 

[bman]

LEAR

Your arguement about referrals is precisely why the EEOC rule are in place.

You are correct that the most coveted positions in any corporation come from referals. Odd are if all of the pilot are white men, which they were mostly so prior to EEOC regs. being ENFORCED, most of the people they know are guess what other white men. That is just reality and if the only way a person can get a job is by an internal referal you see the delima.

Odd are I am more closely associated with more black folks because I am black than a non black person. It just stands to reason. My family is black, I am comforatble being in the black community as a whole, etc..

I am also exposed to a large variety of folks who aren't black, just as a matter of this profession.

As to the "Experience" question again I say it isn't nessicarily that telling. Ability to fly cannot, I repeat cannot, be measured by a person's resume or credentials. For every example you can provided of an "Experienced pilot" being better qualified. I can give examples of poor piloting and poor decision making.

Trust me we have hired several people at the company that I work for and the ones with the most sterling resumes are not always the best pilots or the best candidates. Some have been hired with lotsa TT and experience and demonstrated poor airmanship and as a result are no longer here.

People generalizations serve NO ONE in the hiring process. If you are going to be an effectve hiring manager you must look at the person as a whole individual. You must find some guage to determine what thier actual abilities to operate aircraft and learn new things are.

Screw the resume

 

[Jack Schitt]

EEOC my a$$. 5 or 6 years ago there were two females in GIV initial. Neither had the time to meet ATP mins. Both were hired by Texaco. After the Chevron/Texaco merger, the Texaco Chief Pilot moved on to Coca Cola. Coincidence? Maybe he likes to give opportunities to young pilots. Maybe he likes young girls. I don't know.

 

[Lear70]

You are correct that the most coveted positions in any corporation come from referals. Odd are if all of the pilot are white men, which they were mostly so prior to EEOC regs. being ENFORCED, most of the people they know are guess what other white men. That is just reality and if the only way a person can get a job is by an internal referal you see the delima.

Hadn't really thought about it that way, mainly because I have lots of friends who are black, white, cuban, male and female alike, and I've been out of the corporate world for a few years so I may be more "out of touch" with the in-house referrals than someone else. Good point.

People generalizations serve NO ONE in the hiring process. If you are going to be an effectve hiring manager you must look at the person as a whole individual. You must find some guage to determine what thier actual abilities to operate aircraft and learn new things are. Screw the resume

While I wouldn't necessarily say "Screw the resume", there is certainly a good point in there to look at the whole individual, as that is what determines a good corporate fit.

I fly with a LOT of new-hires and fly every day with 500-hour up to 5,000-hour pilots. I can honestly say that there are a few 500 hour guys and gals who have "golden hands", but most, although they do a good job, are not as good as the 3,000 to 5,000 hour guys and gals with prior jet time, it's just lack of experience which, once they get it, will make them d*mn good pilots!

I would still say that in a large percentile cross-section of the aviation industry, that a person's experience would still be the best gauge of their flying abilities and, while there are exceptions to the rule, someone with more experience is, more often than not, going to be a better pilot when comparing a 2,000 hour person to an 8,000 hour person. It may not make them the better corporate fit, but is certainly where I would start in initial candidate screening...

Maybe the corporate world is different and I've just been in the airline world too long...

 

[tathepilot]

Sure I answered the question. My last paragraph:



Incidentally, I applied for that position myself the three times it's been advertised in the last 3 years, and never received the call for interview. Since my profile is deliberately devoid of info, my vitals for comparison are:

6,275 Total Time
4,875 Turbine
4,225 Jet
3,100 Jet PIC

PIC time in the 727, CL-65, and just about every Lear they made except the 45. Previous jet corporate and charter command experience flying multi-billionaires around this mudball we call Earth, and there were probably people with TWICE my experience banging on the door for that job!

Point is, yes, it is a fact that more experienced people were applying for the job, and no, I don't have a problem with a 2,000 hour person getting the job, as long as it was their referral that got it for them, and not their minority status... [/B]

Have you ever thought that with your quilifications they were not looking for someone to use them as a 'stepping stone'

And yes, everyone does move on....

 

[AV1ATRX]

I think maybe that unless you are a "minority" you can't understand and appreciate the EEOC aspect. Believe me, without those rules it would be a LOT harder than it already is to get anywhere in this business if you are a woman. I can't speak for any other minority because I'm not one, and I don't presume to understand what they've gone through.

When I started flying, all the guys at the FBO (I was the only female student at the time) were telling me to hurry up and get going so I could get a job, since the airlines would be beating down my door to hire me. What a crock of ****! I have been applying to the airlines since 2001 and have not recieved one single interview. And that is because I'm not qualified. Until I meet the minimum requirements, I'm not going to get called. I have close to 2000 hours (for those of you who assumed I was a 500 hour pilot), and it's quality time, but I can't compete right now with the folks out there with more time than me.

You know what? I dont' have a problem with that. It's the way it should be. I'llj ust keep plugging away, happy for just about any job I can find to build my multi time.

Until you walk in a person's shoes, you can't claim to know how it is for them. Now I know that there are female pilots out there who got hired with ridiculously low times, but there are male pilots with low time, too, in those same places.

For every female pilot you get your blood pressure up about who has a job (you probably wanted), think about all the ones who didn't get a job somewhere because they were a woman. Think it doesn't happen anymore? THINK AGAIN. It happens every single day! I personally have been told straight out that I wasn't going to be hired somewhere because I was a woman. Sure, I could make a big deal out of it and sue them, but is that the best way? NO. Obviously it's not a place I would want to work for anyway.

I personally have enjoyed how this thread turned out (except for the naming of names), despite the fact that I still don't know how to get a resume to Coca Cola! It's good to debate these things - it's the only way to make change, if it's needed. As a female pilot, I'm not offended by anything said here, it's typical banter for an internet message board. I just hope that if I ever end up flying with any of you that you will show me the same respect that I will show you.

 

[English]

If you want to apply for the Coke job, or want more info, contact Janice Barden at API. www.apiaviation.com

 

[tathepilot]

LEAR

People generalizations serve NO ONE in the hiring process. If you are going to be an effectve hiring manager you must look at the person as a whole individual. You must find some guage to determine what thier actual abilities to operate aircraft and learn new things are.

Screw the resume

This is what I strongly believe:
'quote'
If you are going to be an effectve hiring manager you must look at the person as a whole individual.

Why was EEOC put into place?
I bet if you ask every single peson in this world that question you will get a different answer from every single person.

Appreciate the EEOC aspect? nah I'd rather just get treated with respect and that will be just fine.

Today's society is so distorted when it comes to things like race and prejudice, I don't believe that it will be solved in our lifetime.


Actually I don't think it will ever be solved. Can you actually think of what it would be like if we were all treated equally??

As a matter of fact today when I was sitting in the fbo at Atlantic 'frg'. 'With a student'. A guy that runs this flight school starts talking to me about his operation. He begins to tell me how as a cfi I can make 55k a year and glorifies the position with his company. I told him wow, that sounds like a great operation that you have. Me, I've never really been interested in the money. I'm just happy that I get to wake up everyday and do what I truly love.

Having said that I think about all the stories that I hear about children getting killed. Young babies killed by someone or anything else crazy that happens in this world. I can't tell you how many times I hear stories about people that get killed and it makes me sick to my stomach. I think why did it happen to them and I sit here 'less than perfect' and I'm still getting another chance. Yet the whole world stays pissed off at eachother.