Coca Cola

[Lear70]

You are correct that the most coveted positions in any corporation come from referals. Odd are if all of the pilot are white men, which they were mostly so prior to EEOC regs. being ENFORCED, most of the people they know are guess what other white men. That is just reality and if the only way a person can get a job is by an internal referal you see the delima.

Hadn't really thought about it that way, mainly because I have lots of friends who are black, white, cuban, male and female alike, and I've been out of the corporate world for a few years so I may be more "out of touch" with the in-house referrals than someone else. Good point.

People generalizations serve NO ONE in the hiring process. If you are going to be an effectve hiring manager you must look at the person as a whole individual. You must find some guage to determine what thier actual abilities to operate aircraft and learn new things are. Screw the resume

While I wouldn't necessarily say "Screw the resume", there is certainly a good point in there to look at the whole individual, as that is what determines a good corporate fit.

I fly with a LOT of new-hires and fly every day with 500-hour up to 5,000-hour pilots. I can honestly say that there are a few 500 hour guys and gals who have "golden hands", but most, although they do a good job, are not as good as the 3,000 to 5,000 hour guys and gals with prior jet time, it's just lack of experience which, once they get it, will make them d*mn good pilots!

I would still say that in a large percentile cross-section of the aviation industry, that a person's experience would still be the best gauge of their flying abilities and, while there are exceptions to the rule, someone with more experience is, more often than not, going to be a better pilot when comparing a 2,000 hour person to an 8,000 hour person. It may not make them the better corporate fit, but is certainly where I would start in initial candidate screening...

Maybe the corporate world is different and I've just been in the airline world too long...

 

[tathepilot]

Sure I answered the question. My last paragraph:



Incidentally, I applied for that position myself the three times it's been advertised in the last 3 years, and never received the call for interview. Since my profile is deliberately devoid of info, my vitals for comparison are:

6,275 Total Time
4,875 Turbine
4,225 Jet
3,100 Jet PIC

PIC time in the 727, CL-65, and just about every Lear they made except the 45. Previous jet corporate and charter command experience flying multi-billionaires around this mudball we call Earth, and there were probably people with TWICE my experience banging on the door for that job!

Point is, yes, it is a fact that more experienced people were applying for the job, and no, I don't have a problem with a 2,000 hour person getting the job, as long as it was their referral that got it for them, and not their minority status... [/B]

Have you ever thought that with your quilifications they were not looking for someone to use them as a 'stepping stone'

And yes, everyone does move on....

 

[AV1ATRX]

I think maybe that unless you are a "minority" you can't understand and appreciate the EEOC aspect. Believe me, without those rules it would be a LOT harder than it already is to get anywhere in this business if you are a woman. I can't speak for any other minority because I'm not one, and I don't presume to understand what they've gone through.

When I started flying, all the guys at the FBO (I was the only female student at the time) were telling me to hurry up and get going so I could get a job, since the airlines would be beating down my door to hire me. What a crock of ****! I have been applying to the airlines since 2001 and have not recieved one single interview. And that is because I'm not qualified. Until I meet the minimum requirements, I'm not going to get called. I have close to 2000 hours (for those of you who assumed I was a 500 hour pilot), and it's quality time, but I can't compete right now with the folks out there with more time than me.

You know what? I dont' have a problem with that. It's the way it should be. I'llj ust keep plugging away, happy for just about any job I can find to build my multi time.

Until you walk in a person's shoes, you can't claim to know how it is for them. Now I know that there are female pilots out there who got hired with ridiculously low times, but there are male pilots with low time, too, in those same places.

For every female pilot you get your blood pressure up about who has a job (you probably wanted), think about all the ones who didn't get a job somewhere because they were a woman. Think it doesn't happen anymore? THINK AGAIN. It happens every single day! I personally have been told straight out that I wasn't going to be hired somewhere because I was a woman. Sure, I could make a big deal out of it and sue them, but is that the best way? NO. Obviously it's not a place I would want to work for anyway.

I personally have enjoyed how this thread turned out (except for the naming of names), despite the fact that I still don't know how to get a resume to Coca Cola! It's good to debate these things - it's the only way to make change, if it's needed. As a female pilot, I'm not offended by anything said here, it's typical banter for an internet message board. I just hope that if I ever end up flying with any of you that you will show me the same respect that I will show you.

 

[English]

If you want to apply for the Coke job, or want more info, contact Janice Barden at API. www.apiaviation.com

 

[tathepilot]

LEAR

People generalizations serve NO ONE in the hiring process. If you are going to be an effectve hiring manager you must look at the person as a whole individual. You must find some guage to determine what thier actual abilities to operate aircraft and learn new things are.

Screw the resume

This is what I strongly believe:
'quote'
If you are going to be an effectve hiring manager you must look at the person as a whole individual.

Why was EEOC put into place?
I bet if you ask every single peson in this world that question you will get a different answer from every single person.

Appreciate the EEOC aspect? nah I'd rather just get treated with respect and that will be just fine.

Today's society is so distorted when it comes to things like race and prejudice, I don't believe that it will be solved in our lifetime.


Actually I don't think it will ever be solved. Can you actually think of what it would be like if we were all treated equally??

As a matter of fact today when I was sitting in the fbo at Atlantic 'frg'. 'With a student'. A guy that runs this flight school starts talking to me about his operation. He begins to tell me how as a cfi I can make 55k a year and glorifies the position with his company. I told him wow, that sounds like a great operation that you have. Me, I've never really been interested in the money. I'm just happy that I get to wake up everyday and do what I truly love.

Having said that I think about all the stories that I hear about children getting killed. Young babies killed by someone or anything else crazy that happens in this world. I can't tell you how many times I hear stories about people that get killed and it makes me sick to my stomach. I think why did it happen to them and I sit here 'less than perfect' and I'm still getting another chance. Yet the whole world stays pissed off at eachother.

 

[sleepy]

I think maybe that unless you are a "minority" you can't understand and appreciate the EEOC aspect. Believe me, without those rules it would be a LOT harder than it already is to get anywhere in this business if you are a woman. I can't speak for any other minority because I'm not one, and I don't presume to understand what they've gone through.

When I started flying, all the guys at the FBO (I was the only female student at the time) were telling me to hurry up and get going so I could get a job, since the airlines would be beating down my door to hire me. What a crock of ****! I have been applying to the airlines since 2001 and have not recieved one single interview. And that is because I'm not qualified. Until I meet the minimum requirements, I'm not going to get called. I have close to 2000 hours (for those of you who assumed I was a 500 hour pilot), and it's quality time, but I can't compete right now with the folks out there with more time than me.

You know what? I dont' have a problem with that. It's the way it should be. I'llj ust keep plugging away, happy for just about any job I can find to build my multi time.

Until you walk in a person's shoes, you can't claim to know how it is for them. Now I know that there are female pilots out there who got hired with ridiculously low times, but there are male pilots with low time, too, in those same places.

For every female pilot you get your blood pressure up about who has a job (you probably wanted), think about all the ones who didn't get a job somewhere because they were a woman. Think it doesn't happen anymore? THINK AGAIN. It happens every single day! I personally have been told straight out that I wasn't going to be hired somewhere because I was a woman. Sure, I could make a big deal out of it and sue them, but is that the best way? NO. Obviously it's not a place I would want to work for anyway.

I personally have enjoyed how this thread turned out (except for the naming of names), despite the fact that I still don't know how to get a resume to Coca Cola! It's good to debate these things - it's the only way to make change, if it's needed. As a female pilot, I'm not offended by anything said here, it's typical banter for an internet message board. I just hope that if I ever end up flying with any of you that you will show me the same respect that I will show you.

Look, I have flown with some great women pilots. They were all Captains, and I was the FO. I had way more flight time than they did, but that is just the way this business works out when you are furloughed. I have no problem with women pilots.

I just have a problem when all things being equal, they select a person for a job base on minority status alone (filling a quota). I feel this way about every job out there, not just pilots jobs. Now if someone has more experience than someone else, but the person with less experience is a better fit into the corporate culture of the company, then ok, hire the person with less experience, just don't do because of the stupid EEOC, or the threat of a boycott by Rev Jackson.

If you want a job flying jets, you meet the minimum qualifications for my airline (ASA). We are interviewing and hiring 20 per month. Go over to the Regional thread and do a search or PM me for the hiring FAX phone number, send a resume, lets see if your minority status helps you get the interview ahead of all of the furloughed airline pilots with 10K plus hours that are applying for these $20K starting salary jobs.

If you get the interview, lets see if you can pass the sim ride in the CRJ-200 (you know how to fly a six-tube EFIS, use FMS, Flight Director, Autopilot, EICAS, etc..., right?). If you do, lets see if you pass the psyc test, written test, and oral test/interview. If you do, and are hired, I will be glad to work with you, because I know some of the people that conduct the interviews, and I will believe that you are truely qualified for the job.

BTW, a female Captain is in charge of the hiring process.

 

[English]

Look, I have flown with some great women pilots. They were all Captains, and I was the FO. I had way more flight time than they did, but that is just the way this business works out when you are furloughed. I have no problem with women pilots.

If you want a job flying jets, you meet the minimum qualifications for my airline (ASA). ......lets see if your minority status helps you get the interview ahead of all of the furloughed airline pilots with 10K plus hours that are applying for these $20K starting salary jobs.

If you get the interview, lets see if you can pass the sim ride in the CRJ-200 (you know how to fly a six-tube EFIS, use FMS, Flight Director, Autopilot, EICAS, etc..., right?). If you do, lets see if you pass the psyc test, written test, and oral test/interview. If you do, and are hired, I will be glad to work with you, because I know some of the people that conduct the interviews, and I will believe that you are truely qualified for the job.

BTW, a female Captain is in charge of the hiring process.

Sleepy, you need to get your head out of your as$. Could you BE anymore condescending? And, we are talking about a CRJ, not brain surgery.

 

[sleepy]

Sleepy, you need to get your head out of your as$. Could you BE anymore condescending? And, we are talking about a CRJ, not brain surgery.

Exactly, the easiest aircraft to fly in the whole wide world. If she can't get a job, on her own, against 10K hour furloughed airline pilots, with a woman in charge of the hiring process, then does she really deserve anything else right now?

It is simple. She doesn't even have to take the job if offered. Why not FAX that resume and see what happens. Even $20K the first year (maybe $35K the second year, $45K the third year, plus all of that valuable Part 121 Jet SIC flight time) must be more than she can make as a CFI, and worth the cost of the FAX and resume (about $1.00).

She says she can't get a job at any place that doesn't have a minority hiring program in place (like Coke). I say that ASA has a minority in charge of hiring, would like to hire some minorities, has hired some pretty good minority pilots in the past (I know, because I have flown with some of them), and still will not hire her if she cannot fly the easiest aircraft to fly in the world (CRJ-200), in an easy interview sim ride (can you take-off, climb and descend, enter a hold, fly an ILS approach, land (not graded). All things that I did today in the course of my easy little job (except I did have two really nice landing).

Come on English. I am not arrogant, I just want to see her try it. I want her to succeed. If she is that good, I want her to work at my company. I would hate for her to go through life thinking that she couldn't get a good job in avaition because she is a woman, when really it was because she has a persecution complex. If she only applies to places that have a track record of having minority quota programs, in the long-run, won't she fail to reach her true potential? Won't she always feel like just another quota?

 

[AV1ATRX]

I knew somebody would flame me for what I said, and I said it anyway...

I never said that I thought I couldn't get hired without some minority hiring policy in place. On the contrary, I thought I was saying that the airlines aren't as bad as most of you think they are about hiring women. I specifically pointed out that I DO NOT meet their minimums, and that's why I haven't gotten an interview. Again, this proves my point that we aren't all hired because we are female.

I also do not have a persecution complex, I was just pointing out that gender discrimination still exists. I was not complaining, but sharing my experience with those of you who think we are just sailing through this industry with no problems.

That being said, I am a great pilot who works hard and constantly tries to improve on my skills. I believe that if an airline were to hire me tomorrow I would make it, but have to work hard to get there. I am a firm believer in experience making one a better pilot. I am working right now to get the experience I need to get where I want to go.

I have no idea who hires minorities in aviation. When I posed the question about Coke, I sincerely thought it might be a cool place to end up someday. I had never heard about the minority issues there and certainly could not have known what kind of mess it would bring up by posting here.

 

[English]

AV1ATRX,

It was not your question that brought out the hatred and venom from so many on this board. Some people just have to blame their inadequacies and inability to move ahead in life on convenient scapegoats. Women are easy targets in aviation.

PM me your resume. I might be able to help you with a job.

 

[sleepy]

I knew somebody would flame me for what I said, and I said it anyway...

I never said that I thought I couldn't get hired without some minority hiring policy in place. On the contrary, I thought I was saying that the airlines aren't as bad as most of you think they are about hiring women. I specifically pointed out that I DO NOT meet their minimums, and that's why I haven't gotten an interview. Again, this proves my point that we aren't all hired because we are female.

I also do not have a persecution complex, I was just pointing out that gender discrimination still exists. I was not complaining, but sharing my experience with those of you who think we are just sailing through this industry with no problems.

That being said, I am a great pilot who works hard and constantly tries to improve on my skills. I believe that if an airline were to hire me tomorrow I would make it, but have to work hard to get there. I am a firm believer in experience making one a better pilot. I am working right now to get the experience I need to get where I want to go.

I have no idea who hires minorities in aviation. When I posed the question about Coke, I sincerely thought it might be a cool place to end up someday. I had never heard about the minority issues there and certainly could not have known what kind of mess it would bring up by posting here.

Ok, are you going to apply to ASA or not? I will be glad to provide you with all of the info that you need to apply. You meet the mins (you have more than 1,200 TT and 200 ME, right), so what do you have to lose?

I suspect that the woman you met from Coke told you about the special minority hiring program, and that is the only reason that you were interested in them (an easy job for a minority to get , right?), I could be wrong about you. I am willing to help if you are really interested. Let me know.

No hate for you here, just disgust with this whole affirmitive action thing.

 

[English]

I suspect that the woman you met from Coke told you about the special minority hiring program, and that is the only reason that you were interested in them (an easy job for a minority to get , right?), I could be wrong about you. I am willing to help if you are really interested. Let me know.

No hate for you here, just disgust with this whole affirmitive action thing.

You truly are a jerk.

 

[AV1ATRX]

Again, I had no idea that Coke had a minority hiring program. The pilot I talked to never mentioned it. We talked for a very few minutes, and the MALE pilot who was flying with her was the one who told me it was a good place to work for. He also never mentioned the "minority hiring program."

As for ASA, I actually would LOVE to fly for them. I have sent them my information, and when I meet their minimums, I hope to be given a chance to interview. For now, I just want them to know that I would like to work there in the future.

Thanks English. You are a great female voice on these boards.

 

[bman]

Affirmative Action is Bovine Scat. As a matter of fact I would deem most of the hiring processes in aviation Bovine Scat.

Look ALL THINGS ARE NEVER EQUAL!!! That is a false arguement.

It always brings a little smile to my face when I hear people in my department say, "A white man can get a job nowdays". I then look around and see that the only person darker than a brown paper bag is moi, and that includes the janitors.

The man is keepin the "white man down". I cannot wait until the day comes when the white men will amass and be like, " Where's David Dukes, ifin you guys don't hire some white guys soon we gonna sick big bad Double "D" on your routy poot candy arses.

Come on guys keep it lite. I does us no good to spread adversity just because we hid behind the mask of animostiy of over the net.

Good luck al

 

[sleepy]

You truly are a jerk.

Maybe so, but I'm still right about affirmitative action.

 

[Stearmandriver]

If you get the interview, lets see if you can pass the sim ride in the CRJ-200 (you know how to fly a six-tube EFIS, use FMS, Flight Director, Autopilot, EICAS, etc..., right?). If you do, lets see if you pass the psyc test, written test, and oral test/interview. If you do, and are hired, I will be glad to work with you, because I know some of the people that conduct the interviews, and I will believe that you are truely qualified for the job.

Good God, dude, it's ASA. I don't know if someone drew one in on your badge, but there isn't really an "N" in front of it!

Aviatrix, for what it's worth, I'm married to a female pilot. We both work for large "regionals". and have an average number of contacts in different facets of aviation, so I might be at least a little qualified to offer an opinion on this:

First of all, I don't really think there are a significant number of pilots out there who harbor any ill will towards females. At least, I've never met one. There probably are many male pilots who are a little bitter about the preferential interviewing and hiring (real or perceived) that many women seem to get, but it's directed more at the companies than the pilots themselves. At least, this is what I've seen. I'm sure there are a few, but, well, the guy who told you he wouldn't hire you because you're a woman might be just as likely not to hire ME because I wore a red tie to the interview, ya know? Pr*cks are pr*cks, they exist in every field, and the most you can hope for is not to have to deal with them too much. I think they really ARE a minority in aviation, though... thankfully. (And from what I've seen, we seem to have more than our fair share at the airlines. A 'feed the ego' thing, I imagine.)

Secondly, I think women really DO have an advantage in aviation right now. Not commenting on whether it's right or wrong, but it is true. You'd be doing yourself a disservice not to admit it, or realize it. The EEOC thing is part of it, but I think a bigger part might be the networking aspect. Have you ever been to a Women in Aviation conference? ISA+31? The networking at these events is absolutely phenomenal, for two reasons: One, women ARE a minority in aviation (smaller world, y'all tend to remember each other), and two, most women who've achieved high positions in the industry seem genuinely interested in helping other people out. If you give your resume to a recruiter at a WAI (women in aviation - don't ask me why they transpose the letters, they just do - goofy chicks ) conference, she'll make sure it goes on the short pile for interviews when she gets back. All you guys that are seething over this idea listen up here: they'll do the same for any of you, if you attend the conference. I know three white guys from my airline, all F/O's with NO turbine PIC, that were hired at Alaska in just this way. I was going to try it in '02. Doh. Maybe next year...

So, point is, whether or not you like the pref interviewing, why not take advantage of it? Lots of guys bitch about it, but not one of 'em would turn down the opportunity if they had it. I mean, if I felt I was offered a job based on the fact that I have brown eyes, and I wanted the job, would I take it? Of course.

I'll admit that my grand plan was to get my wife hired at UAL, so I could retire by 30. (Before anyone screams, my wife's flying a 90,000 lb., 4 engine jet with full glass, autothrottles, CAT III etc., so I think she'd be pretty qualified for any job that came up) Still formulating plan B...

Just kidding... I mean I wouldn't really have quit flying. But I always encouraged my wife to take advantage of all the networking, and I'd encourage you all to do the same.

 

[Lear70]

As for ASA, I actually would LOVE to fly for them. I have sent them my information, and when I meet their minimums, I hope to be given a chance to interview. For now, I just want them to know that I would like to work there in the future.

Until I meet the minimum requirements, I'm not going to get called. I have close to 2000 hours (for those of you who assumed I was a 500 hour pilot), and it's quality time, but I can't compete right now with the folks out there with more time than me.

OK, I'm confused. At "close to 2000 hours" you meet the minimums of just about every regional airline out there...? Not trying to bash at all, you seem to be very cool and truly have a passion for flying and I see no reason why, if you have the 1,500 and 300 that most regionals want, one of us on the board who lives in your area could share a frosty adult beverage, make sure you were someone they'd want to fly with, then sneak your resume in the back door somewhere...

And yes, they are hiring from just about every experience level - the last 3 guys I flew with had less than 2,000 hours total time. Hiring all 7,000-hour experienced jet pilots would be bad because all of them meet the upgrade minimums NOW, and will get p*ssed off when the growth isn't such that they can upgrade within a few years. By hiring at every level from 1,500 hours to 5,000+ hours you get a good mix of people while retaining a good base to upgrade from for the airline's growth spurts and you minimize job dissatisfaction.

I have to say that I still agree with Sleepy on the feeling that Affirmative Action sucks. And yes, that part IS sour grapes because I watched a female student of mine get on at United with 1/3 of my total time and NO jet time while I was flying 727's. NO ONE can tell me that wasn't because of Affirmative Action...

Also agree with Stearman Driver; all of this doesn't make me mad at the women I fly with daily - almost everyone I fly with are great pilots and great people. If I had an "in", I'd take it too, but it DOES make me a lot less respectful of the companies that still employ the Affirmative Action guidelines in hiring and therefore take DRASTICALLY less-qualified applicants because of their gender, skin color, or nationality. I applaud companies that tell the EEOC to "p*ss off" and hire the best candidate for their operation and pay the fines if there are any.

By the way, I helped recruit for PCL at the WAI in Nashville a few years ago (I don't know why the swapped the letters either) and I can honestly say that after having attended several AIR, Inc seminars, the WAI seminar BLEW IT AWAY! I have never seen such a group of open and friendly pilots willing to help each other attain their aviation goas, which is what I believe this industry is all about, but then again I'm a 3rd generation pilot who grew up in a "better" aviation world (I'm a little idealistic about the "golden age" of aviation).

 

[AV1ATRX]

OK. I have purposely avoided ever posting my times on a public message board because I hate being told that I can't have an opinion or that whatever I think is wrong because I don't have X amount of hours.

I have 1825TT and 150 multi. THAT is why I don't meet the minimums. Until I get those last 50 (or more, depending on the airline) hours of multi time, I'm sitting on the bench.

Now, does anybody want to help me get 50 hours of multi time? Or more? Actually, my ATP checkride is next week and I'll have another 10 hours, so I'll only need 40

Thanks to those of you who have posted intelligent, well-thought out responses. Thanks also for the the PMs I've gotten with good advice. The good folks here seem to outweigh the bad...

 

[ManChild]

You know.... You really shouldn't talk bad about situations or people if you don't know what you are talking about. All I'm going to say is that I happen to know that she had more than 500 hours and she had a type rating. So why don't you grow up and quit crying every time a woman gets a job and you don't.

 

[Av8trxx]

I don't know jack about flying for Coke, but I did meet a Coke pilot a few years back at the Women In Aviation Conference. She was a former F/A for the company who went out and got her ratings, then was offered a Citation F/O position at less than 400TT! I was amazed.

A corp F/A friend of mine is trying to do the very same thing now and is hoping for a F/O slot somplace with pretty low time. How common is this type of thing anyway? She also heard of some internals getting jobs at low TT with her company.