Coca Cola

[starvingcfi]

i don't think i've ever seen the phrase 'eagle experience' so much in a single post. that was amazing.

give this man the $10,000!

haha. just kidding man.

by the way, wasn't she at eagle for all of 8-12 months? still can't blame her for taking the job. i'm just saying. it wasn't that much 'eagle experience.'

 

[bafanguy]

CatYaaak,

I must have missed something in my career. From your remarks re "Eagle copilot time ", I take it you don't have much regard for copilot time as you slammed this lady for HER copilot time. So, tell me...were you born with jet PIC time or did YOU take a copilot job someplace, some time in your career, to get the qualifications you now have ?

Everyone starts someplace, somehow. For some, it's a place like Eagle, for you perhaps, someplace different. If she shouldn't have taken the job at Coke, what would you propose for a furlough like her...stand in the unemployment line while someone else takes a decent job SHE could've had ?

I learn stuff all the time...teach me.

 

[English]

I had a headhunter approach me about a corporate position about a year ago. It was for one of those positions Falcon Capt would have been proud of me for taking. However, it would have required me to move east of the Mississippi. No thanks.

The headhunter received my name through an industry professional whom I consulted for help brushing up a friend's resume (thanks Resume Writer!). Network, network, network!

About the girl bashing....

A former coworker of mine (a male) was just offered a corporate position at a Fortune 50 company. Starting pay for FOs is 85k a year, lots of benefits, etc. This pilot has maybe 2000 TT, most of it in a Conquest, with maybe 500 in a small jet. These kinds of jobs do go to what airline-types consider as "low-timers". This guy got the job because a former coworker of his worked there and recommended him. Now, if a woman with these same qualifications was hired, many of you would claim she was hired because of her sex. So, what would be your complaint about why this guy was hired?

If it's not right in your eyes that a 2000TT woman is hired for a good corporate position, is it also not right that a 200TT male is hired for a good corporate position? I'd love to read responses on your view of this.

 

[CatYaaak]

Okay, I can feel the dogpile beginning and I've got to go fly, so let me clarify a few things and why I chose to respond.

First, I agree that it's not right to name names in a public forum unless perhaps it's to praise them. From the sound of it, this girl is a good person, and I believe that good things should happen to good people. In her case, it sounds like the Fairy Godmother of Good Job-Hunting Fortune pranged her on the head, and she would have been unfit to fly on psychological grounds if she had turned it down. You can't fault her for that, and I most certainly don't.

Second, I've been flying with girl/women pilots since my high school flying club days and university, had many female students, and they've been my peers in both corporate and airline flying. A pilot is a pilot in my book, some good some not so good, but I've flown with and observed many who could fly circles around most men. As far as male pilots who think that women don't have what it takes, I've got no time for 'em, and only hope that some night they're visited by the ghost of Hanna Reich in an ME-163 Komet.

Third, women are far more interesting than men. I've never shared a cockpit with one who has bored me for hours droning on about Union issues, how management sucks, or their mutual fund.

To address a few comments directed at my post:

AA717driver;

I agree with all 4 of your points. As to why I responded to your first one the way I did see my response to bafanguy below.

Bafanguy and English;

I never slammed this girl for her SIC time at Eagle, my point was to highlight the notion that it made any difference, and how ludicrous it is to automatically assume her hours gained at Eagle were an advantage. Usually it's a huge liability. You see, it's not a girl/boy thing, it's an airline/corporate thing. Pilots with airline backgrounds are viewed with suspicion by most large flight departments as a matter of economics and hiring/retention hassles more than anything else. They figure at best, no matter what someone who's young with low time (male OR female) says during an interview, there's a 50-50 chance they will jump ship to an airline given the chance.

These flight departments don't see themselves as "stepping stones" and that's why they pay new-hires 80K a year, especially when costs for Gulfstream initial and recurrent training are running about $30,000, smaller equipment not much less. History has also shown that too-high a percentage of ex or wannabe airline types don't pan out in the corporate world for various reasons, and there's plenty of examples, that's not my opinon. It's hard to justify hiring one with the costs involved given that risk and the fact there are umpteen thousand qualified pilots with no such blemish. Some managers are even given marching orders to only hire only those already type-rated in their aircraft. To their credit, a lot of managers resist this knowing that the PERSON will make the difference between a good employee and a bad one. Fitting the individual to the culture of a particular company IS more important than type ratings or hours, because even the largest of 91 flight department is really a small family.

Any department manager who's hiring practices result in a costly revolving door will be noticed, and they'll probably have to answer for it. Now factor in the fact that a potential new-hire is not only young, with low time...but also a FULOUGHEE? Well the chances of that person staying on just plummeted dramatically. I can't overemphasis how unusual that is.

English, the reason why people get corporate jobs via networking, especially at Fortune 50 companies, is for the above reasons. It's the whole reason why recommendations from a good employee carry weight. That person is vouching not only for their piloting ability, but because this issue of "taking the type rating and running" (someon here even recommended it) is so prevalent, and that person's personality. From the looks of the experience of person who got hired in your example, he never showed signs of having airline goals. I'm sure they asked him about it during his interviews. I'd think the very same thing about a female with that same experience and attitude.

So anyone who's been in this business for awhile must ask themselves...."how can a young, low-time, airline FURLOUGHEE get hired at a place like that given the competition and experience out on the street?". Well, she certainly must have said the right things during the interview. Everyone has said she's nice, and that goes a long, long way. Perhaps she swore up and down she'd not go back to Eagle when they call. Personally, I'd have any furloughee show me a letter resigning their seniority number before I'd consider them, and maybe she did so.

Now, if she admits that she'll run back to Eagle when they call, then there's another agenda at work...not hers, the company's..and she's not to be faulted for it. If the road of least resistance is paved for her and she's shown the way, well that's just her good luck and I hope she's up to the task after she gets on the road and keeps her job. Flying is a great equalizer, and you can't fake your way through it.

So to discuss the "gender factor" in hiring..factual examples. AA717driver, one of my best friends got hired at American Airlines with no college degree when competitive mins dictated it. She got an offer from United too about the same time. She had the equivalent of 1 years' worth of college credit only, but spent her college-age years flying instead. A wonderful girl and great pilot but not one guy during that time I ever heard of got hired without that degree. She's still there and doing fine, and I was happy for her and still am. Fair to others? Maybe not but life not fair and there it is.

I knew a Chief Pilot (retired now) for a large Midwest company running multiple Gulfstreams who told me directly that he got marching orders from the Board..."we don't want to see only white, all-male crews anymore", so he then began scouring the state, then the country, for applicants. Actively recruiting. Believe me this place had people trying to get into there for years with experience up the ying yang. A few lunar landings was considered competitive. (Epilogue; both these lying low-timers hired jumped ship to the airlines soon afterwards..one of them, a then-girlfriend of a friend of mine, didn't even know what a Gulfstream was when she got the offer....Im not kidding).

This is NOT TO SAY the girl in the Coke example is like this..not at all I sincerely hope and will assume she got hired on her merits until proven wrong. I'm just giving real examples of how ludicrous and expensive political correctness can be, and how in the end it does a real disservice to the women in aviation and their reputions.

Hopefully she's what you say...a great girl....then I hope for her success and a long career at Coke. If she retained her airline seniority number and jumps ship then a stupid company got what it deserved, in addition to her not being such a great girl after all but just another airline-type they should have known better not to hire.

Got to go fly...I hope that clears things up.

 

[GEXDriver]

Deleted post

For what it's worth, I did not delete my post - it was done for me. Probably at the request of someone without the guts to PM me with their beef. It is only libel if it's wrong.

 

[English]

I posted my "beef", as you call it, right below your post. I didn't feel the need to make it private.

 

[sleepy]

Well, at least this got some discussion going.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Like it or not, gender bias or whatever is a fact of aviation now.

I know several women that had the quals. of their peers, and a good many that didn't. But the simple fact is the Gub-ment and activists wants a certian cross section of society to show up in the airlines and corporate world, even if the numbers in that profession do not support the required percentage.

We have roughly 600,000 pilots in the U.S., of which about 160,000 (Last time I checked) are ATP's. Of that 160k count on 10,000 or so as retired airline (Over 60) So we are dealing with 150,000 ATPs out there of which the airlines account for probably 90% of them

Now figure that out of that 600,000 total pilots (Going from memory here) I believe about 5% are women. Of which (Again from memory) about 2% hold advanced ratings. So you can see how trying to hire even 8% women can become difficult for airlines when there are not that many out there to start with.

We haven't even dealt with other minorities yet and they account for even less of the total pilot force.

I have an African American buddy from the airline, and he is the first to admit that he was virtually assured a spot at a major......he said and i quote "If I was a Black Woman instead of a man I would be 100% assured of the job"

He is a good pilot and had some good experience, but of our class of 50 he had the least amount of time and was the only one who had never been Captain anywhere.

Unfortunatly there are some that make it through who cannot fly and have no business in an airplane, one that I know, I am amazed that she is still alive!!! (At least I haven't read about her killing herself yet, Keep an eye out for King Air NTSB reports) So far she has been fired from 3 jobs and is still getting snapped up again and again!! These are the ones that make it hard on the rest of the minorities that actually have the experience and know how.

My advise? Don't let it bother you......you can't do anything about it anyhow! Its like taking a mechanical on the last leg of a 4 day trip, you know Murphys law says its going to happen, so just shrug your shoulders and watch the entertainment.

 

[AA717driver]

Catyaak--Thanks for taking time to explain. For the record, she passed on recall to Eagle. Can't predict what she or any other ex-airline type will do. The traditional view of airline pilots who are furloughed is correct. After the recalls started in '94, most of the furloughed airline types bolted back.

I believe today is different. I'm done with the airlines--the benefits just aren't there.

But quite a few corporate pilots have gone to JetBlue recently so you can never tell what someone you hire will do.

GEX--I think only a moderator can pull your post. I didn't get time to report it. BTW, your post was incorrect. That's why I corrected the info. And posting someone's name in that context is chickensh*t.TC

 

[English]

Okay, I'll ask the obvious again...

If it's not right in your eyes that a 2000TT woman is hired for a good corporate position, is it also not right that a 2000TT male is hired for a good corporate position? I'd love to read responses on your view of this.

 

[bafanguy]

But quite a few corporate pilots have gone to JetBlue recently so you can never tell what someone you hire will do.

This quote raises an interesting question. I read a statement somewhere in here that their corp. flight dept had an "unspoken policy...." that no airline pilot would ever be hired...or words to that effect. If the reason for it is that the airline guys bolt, how does that policy jive with the quote above ?

I suppose you KNOW the airline guys will leave for recall but the non-airline guys MIGHT not ? But corp guys Do run to the airlines...I know, I flew with some. So, isn't it all just a crap shoot for the corp flt depts ?

Is this why corp flt depts want people "type rated, current, and XXXhours in type " to avoid loss of trng $$$ ? But, someone on these forums also said that no reputable corp operator asks people buy their own training. More of the same crap shoot ???

 

[AV1ATRX]

English - you're not getting any bites because we all already know the answer but most of these guys can't admit it.

 

[sleepy]

Okay, I'll ask the obvious again...

If it's not right in your eyes that a 2000TT woman is hired for a good corporate position, is it also not right that a 2000TT male is hired for a good corporate position? I'd love to read responses on your view of this.

Depends on what the 2000 hours of experience are flown in. 2000 hours in an F-15 over a 7 year career in the USAF would be a lot of experience. 2000 hours in the right seat of a C-172 as a CFI are a dime a dozen.

I think the most qualified person should be hire without regard to race, color, creed, national origin, etc................ I don't believe in quotas.

 

[bman]

Man this debate never ends.

The major point that is always overlooked in these arguements is the fact that ones resume does not always convey an individual's ability.

PIC vs SIC, 121 vs 91, 2000hrs vs 10000hrs, none of that is truely telling. We all know pilots whose resumes look impecable and yet their abilities never quite seem to match up to said resume.

Total time isn't telling either. Any CRM class will show you that the vast majority of airline crashes that happen, happen with high total time individuals in the pointy end of the airplane. Tienarief >sic<. Flying tigers in the phillipines, That L1011 in So. FL, all crashes with "Highly qualified" pilots at the controls.

All thru my career I have seen 22 year old whiz kids with golden hands. I have also seen high time guys with bad attitudes making stupid mistakes.

A low time military pilot (2000hrs) is considered the equivalent of a relatively high time commuter pilot (4000 to 5000hrs). Why? No amount of mil pilots are well trained, blah, blah is gonna convince me. For that matter they put all manner of pilots black, white, male, female in the cockpits of "highly complex" aircraft with less than 500 hours.

/one suppose if a guy can fly an F- whatever at <500 hrs then a 2000 hour pilot can easily fly a Gee Whiz, right?!

Regards

 

[Lear70]

English - you're not getting any bites because we all already know the answer but most of you guys can't admit it.

Yes, most of us DO know the answer, and it's not the one you want to hear. This debate isn't about male / female, it's about "minority" / non-"minority".

No one's beef on here is about a 2,000 hour pilot getting hired if all the candidates had 2,000 hours.

Unfortunately, in the final selection process, the recruiters are picking between two dozen WASP Male pilots with 6,000 to 9,000 hours and two or three minority pilots with 2,000 hours (1/3 to 1/4 the experience) and hiring the minority pilot to satisfy the EEOC BULLSH*T.

The fact is that in the times we live in, there is NO NEED for EEOC hiring guidelines in the aviation community. Whether it's a major airline, regional airline, charter flight department, corporate flight department, or Joe Bob's Banner Service, a flight department should hire the highest-qualified individual who is a good "corporate fit" for the organization, but that's just not how things work in this day and age.

I'm not saying that these so-called "minority" pilots should not use that to their advantage, h*ll, I would too, but they need to recognize that they are getting hired with lesser qualifications because of their minority status and not because their flying abilities and "experience" made them the better candidate.

Alternately, I could wish for a Presidential candidate who was pro-labor but also pro-firearm rights, with probably about the same odds of success.

Incidentally, most people who get hired at the really good corporate jobs do so through contacts and references - it's fairly rare that a long-term corp flight department will go outside the pool of referred talent, so hours become a bit of a non-issue with a certain basic level of proficiency.

p.s. In about 80 years at the current rate of minority population growth, my grandkids (WASP) will be minorities. Wonder if they'll have "preferential hiring" status...

 

[English]

Unfortunately, in the final selection process, the recruiters are picking between two dozen WASP Male pilots with 6,000 to 9,000 hours and two or three minority pilots with 2,000 hours (1/3 to 1/4 the experience) and hiring the minority pilot to satisfy the EEOC BULLSH*T.

Do you have proof of this? Because, I've talked to several low-time white male pilots that applied for the Coke jobs as well as other corporate jobs. Just where are you getting this information?

And, you didn't answer the question. Do you have a problem with a 2000TT white guy being hired by a Fortune 50 company?

 

[Lear70]

Sure I answered the question. My last paragraph:

Incidentally, most people who get hired at the really good corporate jobs do so through contacts and references - it's fairly rare that a long-term corp flight department will go outside the pool of referred talent, so hours become a bit of a non-issue with a certain basic level of proficiency.

I have no beef with a candidate who is male or female, black, white, yellow, red, or blue in the face from holding their breath waiting for furlough recall at USAirways who gets a job at a corporate outfit at 2,000 hours, as long as they were an internal referral with that flight time since they were competing with several hundred non-referred people with 3 or 4 times their qualifications.

Your question about proof is a non-sequitur. There are literally THOUSANDS of pilots with 5,000 to 15,000 hours of flight time furloughed from major carriers. Those pilots are most certainly applying for every decent jet and turboprop job that comes across the job boards. When it is an established fact that a minority eagle furloughee with around 2,000 hours was hired for one of these positions that undoubtedly had fierce competition from much more highly-experienced pilots, it answers your own question of proof.

Incidentally, I applied for that position myself the three times it's been advertised in the last 3 years, and never received the call for interview. Since my profile is deliberately devoid of info, my vitals for comparison are:

6,275 Total Time
4,875 Turbine
4,225 Jet
3,100 Jet PIC

PIC time in the 727, CL-65, and just about every Lear they made except the 45. Previous jet corporate and charter command experience flying multi-billionaires around this mudball we call Earth, and there were probably people with TWICE my experience banging on the door for that job!

Point is, yes, it is a fact that more experienced people were applying for the job, and no, I don't have a problem with a 2,000 hour person getting the job, as long as it was their referral that got it for them, and not their minority status...

 

[Lear70]

Ah, now it's clear. You applied and they didn't call you. Now you are miffed.

Sounded like sour grapes to me.

And the expected reply... Sour grapes? Hardly. If you'll take note, I never ONCE spoke badly of the company, its employees, or anyone who has posted here. I'm not miffed in the slightest, and am somewhat grateful they didn't call, as it seems that this position would not have been a good corporate fit for me.

I'm left seat in a CRJ after being permanently furloughed from a 727 command position and would only leave for a career gig somewhere else, which is why I apply selectively to outstanding corporate flight departments. I give these facts only as a basis for comparison for people who have very limited experience in the aviation community and who are in need of education.

Again, someone who can't debate the points and would rather sling mud.

 

[bman]

LEAR

Your arguement about referrals is precisely why the EEOC rule are in place.

You are correct that the most coveted positions in any corporation come from referals. Odd are if all of the pilot are white men, which they were mostly so prior to EEOC regs. being ENFORCED, most of the people they know are guess what other white men. That is just reality and if the only way a person can get a job is by an internal referal you see the delima.

Odd are I am more closely associated with more black folks because I am black than a non black person. It just stands to reason. My family is black, I am comforatble being in the black community as a whole, etc..

I am also exposed to a large variety of folks who aren't black, just as a matter of this profession.

As to the "Experience" question again I say it isn't nessicarily that telling. Ability to fly cannot, I repeat cannot, be measured by a person's resume or credentials. For every example you can provided of an "Experienced pilot" being better qualified. I can give examples of poor piloting and poor decision making.

Trust me we have hired several people at the company that I work for and the ones with the most sterling resumes are not always the best pilots or the best candidates. Some have been hired with lotsa TT and experience and demonstrated poor airmanship and as a result are no longer here.

People generalizations serve NO ONE in the hiring process. If you are going to be an effectve hiring manager you must look at the person as a whole individual. You must find some guage to determine what thier actual abilities to operate aircraft and learn new things are.

Screw the resume

 

[Jack Schitt]

EEOC my a$$. 5 or 6 years ago there were two females in GIV initial. Neither had the time to meet ATP mins. Both were hired by Texaco. After the Chevron/Texaco merger, the Texaco Chief Pilot moved on to Coca Cola. Coincidence? Maybe he likes to give opportunities to young pilots. Maybe he likes young girls. I don't know.