CO IRO's in coach?

[Dan Roman]

This was brought up in another string but I have a hard time believing that it wasn't some blowhard making it up. Can someone confirm their policy and also the reality on the line?

 

[COpilot]

What part of it?

Yes, if you are a DH'ing to IRO a flight you can find yourself in the back.

Yes, if you are an IRO, CA, or FO, working a flight you can find the crew rest in the back. It will then be a row of three seats alone.

The progression in all of these is Business First; then best to worst of the coach seats assignments.

Some flights you are almost always in coach; EWR-HNL 90%, EWR-ATH maybe 30% of the time, Europe I see coach about 20%, etc, etc.

 

[bizicmo]

on some flights the IRO is deadheaded and given a seat in coach. On flights where their working they are given a row in coach. I believe that's correct.

 

[eaglesview]

That has got to change in your next contract. It is a safety item. On the all nighter to Europe, and you have an extra pilot who is going to work back anyway, the crew should be staffed to allow for a break.

if UAL and CO ever get together we will need your scope and our International protocal.

 

[Dewey Oxberger]

Welcome to the reality of the worst work rules in the industry. They are so bad, that if we accepted Mgt's offer of DAL's contract (won't happen in a million years), even after parking the remaining 32 737-500s (resulting in about 350 less pilot positions) the 448 extra positions created by their superior work rules would require around 100 recalls to staff this place. Of course next they'll park every -700 they don't absolutely need for performance issues, then they'll see how they can "increase frequency for the customer" by replacing every -800 they don't need for transcons with RP E-175s, and you can see why scope relief is dead on arrival. So yeah, coach crew rest on long haul flights should come as no surprise to anyone familiar with just how lacking this place is with things that every other legacy pilot group has always taken for granted.

 

[chppr5]

What's the min rest the IRO's get before the westbound crossing?

 

[SOVT]

What's the min rest the IRO's get before the westbound crossing?

Generally, on transatlantic, the IRO deadheads in with the working CA/FO the day before so they get about 26 hours. There are some exceptions on the 737 stuff to HNL as well as a few others.

 

[BID]

I can't wait to get out of this contract. It's amazing how I can't find anyone that voted yes for it.

Our management is so spoiled, I am not the militant type, but I am ready to be. In fact, i think the time is now. I think we should put our foot down and not fly more than 80 hours this summer. I think we need to slow things down and let the company know we are tired of working under this agreement. ... Just my opinion of course. I hate to say it, but I don't think this pilot group is ready for all this.

 

[hockeypilot44]

At Delta, we get to do 5 hour deadheads to the Caribbean in coach from DTW to fly right back with a 40 minute turn. It's not quite as bad as CAL, but it's still pretty bad. This is another reason you don't want our contract.

 

[mynameisjim]

At Delta, we get to do 5 hour deadheads to the Caribbean in coach from DTW to fly right back with a 40 minute turn. It's not quite as bad as CAL, but it's still pretty bad. This is another reason you don't want our contract.

10 hours of pay for the day seems pretty good, work 7 of those crappy days and that's it?

 

[mamba20]

I can't wait to get out of this contract. It's amazing how I can't find anyone that voted yes for it.

Our management is so spoiled, I am not the militant type, but I am ready to be. In fact, i think the time is now. I think we should put our foot down and not fly more than 80 hours this summer. I think we need to slow things down and let the company know we are tired of working under this agreement. ... Just my opinion of course. I hate to say it, but I don't think this pilot group is ready for all this.

Too many company guys here. A slow down of that magnitude would never happen at CAL. Too many greedy a holes out there who care only for themselves.

 

[DYLIN]

10 hours of pay for the day seems pretty good, work 7 of those crappy days and that's it?

Still though, I think it would be good to have a line in a contract that says, any international DH or any DH greater than 4-5 hours is in first/business class.

One could sit next to several screaming babies all the way down for five hours and not get one chance to even take a quick nap.

 

[hockeypilot44]

At Delta, we get to do 5 hour deadheads to the Caribbean in coach from DTW to fly right back with a 40 minute turn. It's not quite as bad as CAL, but it's still pretty bad. This is another reason you don't want our contract.

10 hours of pay for the day seems pretty good, work 7 of those crappy days and that's it?

I should have been a little more clear. For me, it seems like I always deadhead down, then fly back to MSP to deadhead back to DTW the following day. It is usually credits about 11 hours for a 2 day.

 

[JohnQ]

Still though, I think it would be good to have a line in a contract that says, any international DH or any DH greater than 4-5 hours is in first/business class.

One could sit next to several screaming babies all the way down for five hours and not get one chance to even take a quick nap.

Actually, you can thank the union for this "gem" all in the name of jobs. Our mgmt has supposedly offered a guaranteed BC seat for the relief pilot on these high-time turns--notice the caveat, the relief pilot, as in singular, as in three pilots instead of four.

That is how most of the industry does it. So what would you rather have? Three pilots flying both legs, with about a 1-1.5 hour rest break in a guaranteed BC seat (but fewer pilot positions in the category) or four pilots, with two flying down/DH back, and the other two DH down/fly back, but often booked in coach?

There is no clear "better" answer. The one thing we DO know, however, is that the company claims that there is a business case for doing these type of turns with three pilots and one blocked BC seat, but not for four pilots with two BC seats blocked off.

 

[whymeworry?]

It's beyond insulting. It's embarrassing. You walk back to coach sometimes and there's a passenger sleeping in your row of rest seats. As you chase him/ her out of there, you get stares/ glares/ comments from other passengers that view you as the moody pilot (which you are by that point).

We had one flight where, while the Captain was sleeping in the 3 coach seats, some passengers pulled down the tray tables and placed empty beer cans and liquor bottles there then proceeded to take pics... as if to show the crew-member passed out from drinking while on break. Am ASAP report was filed. Do you think the company cared though?

We had a Captain hold the line on the Business Class rest seat on a flight from FCO-EWR. Our contract states the IRO rest gets awarded ahead of ANY non-rev passenger. Well a VP of revenue planning showed up and insisted the BC seat was his, afterall he's a VP. The Capt got Ops involved, pulled out the contract and the Veep was asked to move back to coach. But his wife, who had purchased a ticket, now had to sit next to a pilot all the way back to EWR (oh, GOD! The horror!). Upon landing, the Capt. was immediately suspended. The VP wanted him fired. The CPs weren't sure which way to go so they initially settled on a 90 day suspension w/o pay. When the pilot group got word of it, we circled the wagons on our man and quickly raised $14,000 for this gentleman Captain to make him whole. The CEO got wind of this and ordered the CPs to back down. Capt. was given his pay, the time off he took was turned into some sort of "vacation", and he offered to give us back our paypal raised funds. We insisted he keep it for taking on the company. I believe he donated the funds to charity.

BTW, CAL is the #1 altitude violator in Europe. Flt Ops trys to tell us it's our own fault (for not calling out "inches" after transition level). I think it is clearly due to the fact that our crews are the most fatigued in the world right now. It is my understanding that we're the only airline who deadheads the IRO on the way over. So you've been flying all night. Right at the moment of max fatigue, the arrival phase, your IRO is sleeping in back. Everyone else works the IRO both ways from what I hear.

 

[ERfly]

BTW, CAL is the #1 altitude violator in Europe. Flt Ops trys to tell us it's our own fault (for not calling out "inches" after transition level). I think it is clearly due to the fact that our crews are the most fatigued in the world right now. It is my understanding that we're the only airline who deadheads the IRO on the way over. So you've been flying all night. Right at the moment of max fatigue, the arrival phase, your IRO is sleeping in back. Everyone else works the IRO both ways from what I hear.

I also heard CAL leads the way across the Atlantic with the most flights blocked under 8 hours.

 

[Ex737Driver]

I also heard CAL leads the way across the Atlantic with the most flights blocked under 8 hours.

Gotta include the carib in that one as well.

 

[densoo]

BTW, CAL is the #1 altitude violator in Europe. Flt Ops trys to tell us it's our own fault (for not calling out "inches" after transition level).

VVM. Verbalize everything, like that helps.

PF: "I'm scratching by butt now."
PM: "Acknowledged."

You make the pilots verbalize enough, and they'll miss half the radio calls (including the ones assigning altitudes).

 

[flygirlqt]

Gotta include the carib in that one as well.

I have always wondered why ALPA refuses to highlight these ridiculous block times to the FAA. But it is the ALPA way. Pay your dues every month, don't upset the apple cart. Grow your mustaches at National. Nothing will ever change down in Herndon.

 

[Dewey Oxberger]

I have always wondered why ALPA refuses to highlight these ridiculous block times to the FAA. But it is the ALPA way. Pay your dues every month, don't upset the apple cart. Grow your mustaches at National. Nothing will ever change down in Herndon.

Uh, ALPA did. Remember Ponce? Blocked exactly 8:00, around a midnight departure out of EWR, got back around 0930 with no IRO? Almost always landing in Ponce at max landing weight over mountainous terrain at an uncontrolled field onto a 6000' runway with a tailwind? With a large percentage of those trips ending up over 8 hours the company finally made it a 2 night layover (cheaper than an IRO) and then dropped the route altogether a month or two later. Can anyone correct me if I'm wrong?

 

[whymeworry?]

I have always wondered why ALPA refuses to highlight these ridiculous block times to the FAA. But it is the ALPA way. Pay your dues every month, don't upset the apple cart. Grow your mustaches at National. Nothing will ever change down in Herndon.

I know, whats up with that? I realize some guys think a mustache defines their manlihood, I just thought most of those guys came from the Middle East/ India/ Pakistan (where pretty much everyone flaunts a 'stache' of some sort). At National, it's a prerequisite to get into the big-boys club.

 

[flygirlqt]

Uh, ALPA did. Remember Ponce? Blocked exactly 8:00, around a midnight departure out of EWR, got back around 0930 with no IRO? Almost always landing in Ponce at max landing weight over mountainous terrain at an uncontrolled field onto a 6000' runway with a tailwind? With a large percentage of those trips ending up over 8 hours the company finally made it a 2 night layover (cheaper than an IRO) and then dropped the route altogether a month or two later. Can anyone correct me if I'm wrong?

Ponce, where we don't fly to any longer, was one out of how many non iro trips?

 

[flygirlqt]

I know, whats up with that? I realize some guys think a mustache defines their manlihood, I just thought most of those guys came from the Middle East/ India/ Pakistan (where pretty much everyone flaunts a 'stache' of some sort). At National, it's a prerequisite to get into the big-boys club.

Another prerequisite is a large gut that overhangs the belt. Fine dining on memebrs hard earned dues.

 

[IAHERJ]

First off let's get some facts straight. The only fleet where the rest seat is not gauranteed a business first seat is the 757/767. The 737 pilots get a 1st class seat reserved for rest. The 777 has bunks so a non issue. The company already knows that this is a no brainer in the next contract and in fact already offered a change back to the pre concessionary rest seat rules over a year ago in return for some relief on some scope issues in preparation for a joint venture. I've used coach seats(middle 3 seats on the 767) maybe 5 times and the 3 seats on the 757 once in my 4 years on the 757/767. I hated every bit of it and thought it was totally embarrassing.

The deadhead issue is a completely different issue. I've only had to deadhead to Europe twice in coach. I've almost always had a business first seat for deadhead or I'll take a earlier flight or a different flight if it looks like a loooong deadhead in coach is in the works. I don't deadhead much anymore being IAH based as all our long stuff has 3 pilots each way but let's not confuse the deadhead issue with the rest seat issue. I think both need a change and I trust the new contract(or UAL's) will deal with this in a favorable way for the pilots. Hell, we all know the front cabin isn't worth as much as it used to be or the airlines wouldn't be giving away the damn seats to elite frequent fliers so much.

 

[ForgedBlade]

If you were NYC based, you would probably have dead-headed in coach (or gotten coach rest seats) much more. It sucks. Unless there are major changes in our contract, I would never go back to the 756 fleet here. The 737 schedules are more productive and the avoidance of the bulk of the low-paying, back-side-of-the-clock schedules make it worth it to stay away for now.

 

[aa73]

Just curious, guys... You have to DH on the way to Europe since it's less than 8 hours, and then work back, right? Since you get paid the same for DHing as if you were working, why not just have the 3rd pilot work the under-8 hour leg to Europe? Our IROs work the flight even if it's 6 and change, complete with breaks and all. It just makes for a safer operation. So is it a contractual deal for you guys or could you just meet your IRO and say, "Instead of DHing tonight, why don't you just work it and let's all get a break?"

 

[nimtz]

Uh, ALPA did. Remember Ponce? Blocked exactly 8:00, around a midnight departure out of EWR, got back around 0930 with no IRO? Almost always landing in Ponce at max landing weight over mountainous terrain at an uncontrolled field onto a 6000' runway with a tailwind? With a large percentage of those trips ending up over 8 hours the company finally made it a 2 night layover (cheaper than an IRO) and then dropped the route altogether a month or two later. Can anyone correct me if I'm wrong?

From what I was told the company number crunchers decided we would lose too much money if PSE was an IRO trip. That's right, margins so sensitive that paying a year 1-5 73 FO pay would break the bank! I flew with a Eastern scab who chastised the union for screwing up his dream sched of 3 PSE turns a week. What a waste of DNA! :uzi:

 

[catIIIc]

Just curious, guys... You have to DH on the way to Europe since it's less than 8 hours, and then work back, right? Since you get paid the same for DHing as if you were working, why not just have the 3rd pilot work the under-8 hour leg to Europe? Our IROs work the flight even if it's 6 and change, complete with breaks and all. It just makes for a safer operation. So is it a contractual deal for you guys or could you just meet your IRO and say, "Instead of DHing tonight, why don't you just work it and let's all get a break?"

Actually the IRO gets paid more to DH if it is on the 757 since he gets the Blended Rate between the 75 and 76 to DH. No it is not an option for the IRO to work instead of DH because the company uses that little tidbit to have less pilots because the DH does not go toward monthly and yearly flight time limits.

 

[RSRVWINDSURFR]

Just curious, guys... You have to DH on the way to Europe since it's less than 8 hours, and then work back, right? Since you get paid the same for DHing as if you were working, why not just have the 3rd pilot work the under-8 hour leg to Europe? Our IROs work the flight even if it's 6 and change, complete with breaks and all. It just makes for a safer operation. So is it a contractual deal for you guys or could you just meet your IRO and say, "Instead of DHing tonight, why don't you just work it and let's all get a break?"

Also, the company doesn't credit the first 10 hrs. of DH toward your line value, allowing them to work you more.

 

[IAHERJ]

Just curious, guys... You have to DH on the way to Europe since it's less than 8 hours, and then work back, right? Since you get paid the same for DHing as if you were working, why not just have the 3rd pilot work the under-8 hour leg to Europe? Our IROs work the flight even if it's 6 and change, complete with breaks and all. It just makes for a safer operation. So is it a contractual deal for you guys or could you just meet your IRO and say, "Instead of DHing tonight, why don't you just work it and let's all get a break?"

CatIIIc is correct in that the IRO doesn't have a choice in working or DHing. If there is a big delay in EWR and the block time is going to be over 8 hours with weather at the other end, the Captain does have the ability to "activate the IRO". Most FO's deadheading to Europe will say something to the effect of "call me if you need me". The deadheading first officer has been "activated" from time to time when the weather/traffic delays in NYC get really bad.