CO IRO's in coach?

[ERfly]

BTW, CAL is the #1 altitude violator in Europe. Flt Ops trys to tell us it's our own fault (for not calling out "inches" after transition level). I think it is clearly due to the fact that our crews are the most fatigued in the world right now. It is my understanding that we're the only airline who deadheads the IRO on the way over. So you've been flying all night. Right at the moment of max fatigue, the arrival phase, your IRO is sleeping in back. Everyone else works the IRO both ways from what I hear.

I also heard CAL leads the way across the Atlantic with the most flights blocked under 8 hours.

 

[Ex737Driver]

I also heard CAL leads the way across the Atlantic with the most flights blocked under 8 hours.

Gotta include the carib in that one as well.

 

[densoo]

BTW, CAL is the #1 altitude violator in Europe. Flt Ops trys to tell us it's our own fault (for not calling out "inches" after transition level).

VVM. Verbalize everything, like that helps.

PF: "I'm scratching by butt now."
PM: "Acknowledged."

You make the pilots verbalize enough, and they'll miss half the radio calls (including the ones assigning altitudes).

 

[flygirlqt]

Gotta include the carib in that one as well.

I have always wondered why ALPA refuses to highlight these ridiculous block times to the FAA. But it is the ALPA way. Pay your dues every month, don't upset the apple cart. Grow your mustaches at National. Nothing will ever change down in Herndon.

 

[Dewey Oxberger]

I have always wondered why ALPA refuses to highlight these ridiculous block times to the FAA. But it is the ALPA way. Pay your dues every month, don't upset the apple cart. Grow your mustaches at National. Nothing will ever change down in Herndon.

Uh, ALPA did. Remember Ponce? Blocked exactly 8:00, around a midnight departure out of EWR, got back around 0930 with no IRO? Almost always landing in Ponce at max landing weight over mountainous terrain at an uncontrolled field onto a 6000' runway with a tailwind? With a large percentage of those trips ending up over 8 hours the company finally made it a 2 night layover (cheaper than an IRO) and then dropped the route altogether a month or two later. Can anyone correct me if I'm wrong?

 

[whymeworry?]

I have always wondered why ALPA refuses to highlight these ridiculous block times to the FAA. But it is the ALPA way. Pay your dues every month, don't upset the apple cart. Grow your mustaches at National. Nothing will ever change down in Herndon.

I know, whats up with that? I realize some guys think a mustache defines their manlihood, I just thought most of those guys came from the Middle East/ India/ Pakistan (where pretty much everyone flaunts a 'stache' of some sort). At National, it's a prerequisite to get into the big-boys club.

 

[flygirlqt]

Uh, ALPA did. Remember Ponce? Blocked exactly 8:00, around a midnight departure out of EWR, got back around 0930 with no IRO? Almost always landing in Ponce at max landing weight over mountainous terrain at an uncontrolled field onto a 6000' runway with a tailwind? With a large percentage of those trips ending up over 8 hours the company finally made it a 2 night layover (cheaper than an IRO) and then dropped the route altogether a month or two later. Can anyone correct me if I'm wrong?

Ponce, where we don't fly to any longer, was one out of how many non iro trips?

 

[flygirlqt]

I know, whats up with that? I realize some guys think a mustache defines their manlihood, I just thought most of those guys came from the Middle East/ India/ Pakistan (where pretty much everyone flaunts a 'stache' of some sort). At National, it's a prerequisite to get into the big-boys club.

Another prerequisite is a large gut that overhangs the belt. Fine dining on memebrs hard earned dues.

 

[IAHERJ]

First off let's get some facts straight. The only fleet where the rest seat is not gauranteed a business first seat is the 757/767. The 737 pilots get a 1st class seat reserved for rest. The 777 has bunks so a non issue. The company already knows that this is a no brainer in the next contract and in fact already offered a change back to the pre concessionary rest seat rules over a year ago in return for some relief on some scope issues in preparation for a joint venture. I've used coach seats(middle 3 seats on the 767) maybe 5 times and the 3 seats on the 757 once in my 4 years on the 757/767. I hated every bit of it and thought it was totally embarrassing.

The deadhead issue is a completely different issue. I've only had to deadhead to Europe twice in coach. I've almost always had a business first seat for deadhead or I'll take a earlier flight or a different flight if it looks like a loooong deadhead in coach is in the works. I don't deadhead much anymore being IAH based as all our long stuff has 3 pilots each way but let's not confuse the deadhead issue with the rest seat issue. I think both need a change and I trust the new contract(or UAL's) will deal with this in a favorable way for the pilots. Hell, we all know the front cabin isn't worth as much as it used to be or the airlines wouldn't be giving away the damn seats to elite frequent fliers so much.

 

[ForgedBlade]

If you were NYC based, you would probably have dead-headed in coach (or gotten coach rest seats) much more. It sucks. Unless there are major changes in our contract, I would never go back to the 756 fleet here. The 737 schedules are more productive and the avoidance of the bulk of the low-paying, back-side-of-the-clock schedules make it worth it to stay away for now.

 

[aa73]

Just curious, guys... You have to DH on the way to Europe since it's less than 8 hours, and then work back, right? Since you get paid the same for DHing as if you were working, why not just have the 3rd pilot work the under-8 hour leg to Europe? Our IROs work the flight even if it's 6 and change, complete with breaks and all. It just makes for a safer operation. So is it a contractual deal for you guys or could you just meet your IRO and say, "Instead of DHing tonight, why don't you just work it and let's all get a break?"

 

[nimtz]

Uh, ALPA did. Remember Ponce? Blocked exactly 8:00, around a midnight departure out of EWR, got back around 0930 with no IRO? Almost always landing in Ponce at max landing weight over mountainous terrain at an uncontrolled field onto a 6000' runway with a tailwind? With a large percentage of those trips ending up over 8 hours the company finally made it a 2 night layover (cheaper than an IRO) and then dropped the route altogether a month or two later. Can anyone correct me if I'm wrong?

From what I was told the company number crunchers decided we would lose too much money if PSE was an IRO trip. That's right, margins so sensitive that paying a year 1-5 73 FO pay would break the bank! I flew with a Eastern scab who chastised the union for screwing up his dream sched of 3 PSE turns a week. What a waste of DNA! :uzi:

 

[catIIIc]

Just curious, guys... You have to DH on the way to Europe since it's less than 8 hours, and then work back, right? Since you get paid the same for DHing as if you were working, why not just have the 3rd pilot work the under-8 hour leg to Europe? Our IROs work the flight even if it's 6 and change, complete with breaks and all. It just makes for a safer operation. So is it a contractual deal for you guys or could you just meet your IRO and say, "Instead of DHing tonight, why don't you just work it and let's all get a break?"

Actually the IRO gets paid more to DH if it is on the 757 since he gets the Blended Rate between the 75 and 76 to DH. No it is not an option for the IRO to work instead of DH because the company uses that little tidbit to have less pilots because the DH does not go toward monthly and yearly flight time limits.

 

[RSRVWINDSURFR]

Just curious, guys... You have to DH on the way to Europe since it's less than 8 hours, and then work back, right? Since you get paid the same for DHing as if you were working, why not just have the 3rd pilot work the under-8 hour leg to Europe? Our IROs work the flight even if it's 6 and change, complete with breaks and all. It just makes for a safer operation. So is it a contractual deal for you guys or could you just meet your IRO and say, "Instead of DHing tonight, why don't you just work it and let's all get a break?"

Also, the company doesn't credit the first 10 hrs. of DH toward your line value, allowing them to work you more.

 

[IAHERJ]

Just curious, guys... You have to DH on the way to Europe since it's less than 8 hours, and then work back, right? Since you get paid the same for DHing as if you were working, why not just have the 3rd pilot work the under-8 hour leg to Europe? Our IROs work the flight even if it's 6 and change, complete with breaks and all. It just makes for a safer operation. So is it a contractual deal for you guys or could you just meet your IRO and say, "Instead of DHing tonight, why don't you just work it and let's all get a break?"

CatIIIc is correct in that the IRO doesn't have a choice in working or DHing. If there is a big delay in EWR and the block time is going to be over 8 hours with weather at the other end, the Captain does have the ability to "activate the IRO". Most FO's deadheading to Europe will say something to the effect of "call me if you need me". The deadheading first officer has been "activated" from time to time when the weather/traffic delays in NYC get really bad.