CO Crash - (Merged Thread)

[skiav8tor]

In reading that supplement...I do believe that they meant 'protected', as later in the sentence reference is made to 'exceeding' the capabilities of the system.

 

[BSkin]

First of all, a big thanks to everyone for their thoughtful words during what is without a doubt my worst day at work ever. My fellow employees and the pilots' families appreciate the borderless concern from everyone.

Now to clear up a few rumors and set the record straight.

This was the second planned fuel stop of the day en route to KSNA. We would normally one-stop it but with the strong winds yesterday they decided to make it a three leg trip. Both crews have been to KPUB several times before.

The captain was a terrific guy with close to a decade of experience in Citation 560 aircraft. He was current, qualified, and more than competent to act as PIC. He was one of those people who left perfectly good career elsewhere to fly full time. His name hasn't been released yet so I won't go there but we all will miss him and his dry sense of humor very, very, very much. It aches me to even type these words as I can still see his car parked in the lot from my perch.

The FO was also typed in the CE-500 and although I didn't know him as well he was a jocular, easygoing, competent individual whom everyone liked flying with.

The other crew was number two on the approach behind 500AT. I know both of these pilots very well and cannot begin to imagine what it's like to watch your friends drop off the TCAS screen while the tower is issuing low altitude alerts to them. I think the last 60 seconds of that flight will haunt them for the rest of their days, it would me. They landed without event after being moved to a different runway. They were responsible for calling home and starting the phone tree you never want to be a part of.

What is lacking in this scenario thus far is a smoking gun. Experienced pilots flying a well maintained aircraft in weather they've encountered countless times in their career - during daylight with plenty of rest to boot. I beg all of you to not trample my friends' memories by speculating the cause before the NTSB has a chance to gather and issue the facts. We, as fellow professional aviators, owe them that much.


Again, thanks everyone for his or her thoughts. They will get to the bottom of this and maybe we'll learn something from it.

SS

All I can say is, that is the best comment I've ever seen on this forum! I came on the corporate area to find out any info about this. Having gone through a similar situation over a year ago with my previous employer, losing friends, and watching dweebs on this forum speculate about the accident, was sickening. Bravo, friend, and my sympathies, to you and the families.

 

[XLDaddy]

Very sorry for the loss of your friends and co-workers. May god be with their families and loved ones.

 

[blzr]

Were there birds reported in the area? The cessnas are not prone to catastrophic failures that I am aware of. I hope that the NTSB finds that the accident was caused by conditions out of their control.

 

[2000flyer]

In 1998, the FAA required operators of several Cessna models, including the one that crashed Wednesday, to add a warning to their flight manuals that flying in freezing drizzle and other conditions "may result in ice build-up on protected surfaces exceeding the capability of the ice protection system."

"Protected Surfaces?"

I believe they mean 'UN-protected' surfaces, no?

It is Protected Areas. In icing conditions you were required to add 8 knots to ref. Part of this comes from the 560's inability to completely shed accumulated ice. Even when you let it build to 1/4", when you cycle the boots you still left patches on the leading edge, which is a non-inflated area. Later SBs calibrated the AOA to a higher indication when anti-ice is ON, thus giving you the added buffer to ref. I know this applied to 560 series, not sure of others. The best thing Cessna has done to the 500 series wing (and CJ) is to put a heated leading edge on them.

2000Flyer

 

[Texasskicker]

Jet plunged 1300 feet

TheDenverChannel.com


Doomed Jet Plunged 1,300 Feet Just Before Crash

Investigators Try To Pin Down Reason For Rapid Descent



POSTED: 8:54 am MST February 18, 2005
UPDATED: 9:31 am MST February 18, 2005


DENVER -- Federal authorities investigating the crash of a corporate jet near the Pueblo airport that killed all eight people aboard said the plane's approach appeared normal until a minute before the crash. That's when the Cessna Citation C-560 plummeted 1,300 feet in 28 seconds.

The pilot did not radio the control tower to say what happed, and the jet crashed 15 seconds later, according to Frank Hilldrup, the National Transportation Safety Board investigator in charge of the crash investigation.

http://images.ibsys.com/2005/0217/4205861_200X150.jpg Investigators can be seen examining the main part of the crash site. The plane's tail section can also be seen to their right.
http://images.ibsys.com/sh/images/ibs_icon/popup.gifSlideshow: See More Images From Plane Crash Site



Hilldrup and NTSB chairwoman Ellen Engleman Conners said investigators had interviewed air traffic controllers at Pueblo Memorial Airport.

Hilldrup said the last radar reading of the plane indicated it was about 300 feet above the ground.

Earlier Thursday, Conners had said radar tracking of the plane had revealed some "interesting characteristics" but did not elaborate.

The jet, owned by electronics retailer Circuit City Stores Inc., was stopping to refuel in Pueblo when it crashed. Circuit City said four employees, two outside business partners and two pilots were killed.

Neither Circuit City nor the Pueblo County coroner has released their names but families confirmed that the victims included pilot Bruce Walton, 53, of Richmond, Va.; co-pilot Jeffrey Wightman, 42, of Tappahannock, Va.; Kyle Jeffrey Harmon, 26, an assistant buyer with Circuit City from Virginia; Aaron Iskowitz, also of Virginia, and Vincent Choe, 32, of New Jersey, The Denver Post reported.



http://images.ibsys.com/sh/images/structures/misc/spacer.gifhttp://images.ibsys.com/sh/images/structures/misc/spacer.gif

FINAL SECONDS​

9:12:30 a.m. jet at 6,100 feet above sea level
9:12:34 a.m. 6,000 feet
9:12:39 a.m. 5,600 feet
9:12:44 a.m. 4,900 feet (airport elevation: 4,736 feet)
9:13 first 911 call comes in

http://images.ibsys.com/sh/images/structures/misc/spacer.gifhttp://images.ibsys.com/sh/images/structures/misc/spacer.gif


Conners said the investigation will include the weather and potential mechanical problems.

Hilldrup said aviation officials had issued a warning about icing conditions in the Pueblo area before the crash, and the pilot of another Cessna Citation that landed shortly after the accident reported light to moderate icing.

That pilot activated an in-flight deicing system. Ice can weigh down a plane and hurt its aerodynamics.

Hilldrup said it was too early to say whether the plane's jet engines were operating normally when the aircraft crashed.

Investigators recovered the plane's cockpit voice recorder and were interviewing witnesses and getting records on the aircraft and its crew. Investigators also removed the voice recorder from the other Cessna Citation, which was also owned by Circuit City.

Two witnesses told sheriff's investigators they heard loud popping noises from plane shortly before the crash at about 9 a.m. Conners said investigators were looking into those accounts.

The flight originated in Richmond, Va., home of Circuit City, and was heading to Orange County, Calif. authorities said. The planes made a refueling stop early Wednesday in Columbia, Mo.

It was the fourth fatal crash of a small plane in Colorado since late November.

A Cessna 560 crashed in 1995 in Eagle River, Wis., killing two pilots, the only people on board. NTSB spokeswoman Lauren Peduzzi said it would be "very premature" to draw parallels between the two incidents.

 

[enigma]

The aircraft belonged to a major electronics retailer. Is it possible that one of the pax was some sort of techie who was attempting to use a electronic device and his device interfered with the g/s?

This seems unlikely, assuming that the w/x report is correct in that they had 800 or so feet of air underneath the clouds, but considering the aircraft ownership it could have had some bearing on the accident.

God comfort the families.
enigma

 

[PGH STEEL]

You suck dude!! WTF

 

[servicemonkey]

enigma
Please don't start. Just shut the fcuk up.

 

[Metro752]

Well take my freedom of speech and blast a steaming chunky load all over it.

Will you guys apologize if Enigma is possibly correct?

Not allowe to speculate anymore I guess

 

[PGH STEEL]

He's not so no. If you look at the time stamps and Alt's on the post above you will see he lost 1200 feet in 14 sec thats around 5000 fpm
or so. Would you do 5000 fpm to stay on glide slope. I dont think so!!!

 

[Flyboy Sabre 65]

Leave it to enigma to say something stupid!!!!!

 

[P3 Tweek]

Flight tracker

Flight tracker had showed that N500AT and its sister ship N500FK had stopped in COU. I had heard that N500FK had arrived in PUB safely.

A prayer is in order for those lost and their surviving loved ones and families..................

Tweek

PS. Speculation: Popping (compressor stalling) of the engines had been reported. Ingested icing??? Tail plane icing perhaps - horizontal tail stall while deploying wing flaps on approach???

 

[hogdriver00]

Usmc V

Fist of all I want to offer condolences to the families and friends of the crew and Pax.



My question is about the USMC Citation V that crashed in San Diego a few years ago. I never heard the outcome of the investigation but I thought the circumstances were similar. Anyone know?



Hog

 

[thatpilotguy]

P3 Tweek, You made a great observation. I recently saw the tail plain icing video...that's a pretty disturbing thing. And at a low altitude would not be fun.

My prayers go out the the family's, friends and co-workers. I wish you all the best in your time of need.

 

[P3 Tweek]

DEN icing

I had flown into BJC several hours earlier that morning. Icing was present and I would have called it moderate rime - typical DEN freezing upslope condx. WX and icing was worse south of BJC. Bad enough that many, if not all, of the BJC based, DEN TV stations news helicopters were not taking the chance on flying down to PUB to get an eye view of the crash scene.

If I remember correctly, the PUB METAR observation at about 1700UTC was OVC006-008, temp -2/-3, and VIS approximately 8 mi.

Tweek

 

[skiav8tor]

The San Diego crash was an Encore going into Miramar, and if I recall, the WX conditions were night VMC...Anybody else know the details? Again, let's not try to speculate on what happened in PUB....just remember the people affected, and their families.

 

[enigma]

Leave it to enigma to say something stupid!!!!!

MrSteel, Mr Service Monky, and Sabre.

I offer a possibility that an outside force, one completely out of the pilots control might have caused this accident.

Would you rather I just decided that the pilots screwed up?

Actually, I don't care what you'd rather. If you don't want to deal with/discuss the incident, why are you here?

enigma

 

[Crossky]

I offer a possibility that an outside force, one completely out of the pilots control might have caused this accident.


If you don't want to deal with/discuss the incident, why are you here?

enigma

It's called respect for the dead and their relatives, co-workers, and friends you freakin' IDIOT. I offer a possibility that an outside force, one completely out of your control, like a recklessly driven baggage cart, may strike you down and knock some sense into you. Then maybe we can speculate ridiculously about you causing your accident.

 

[enigma]

It's called respect for the dead and their relatives, co-workers, and friends you freakin' IDIOT. I offer a possibility that an outside force, one completely out of your control, like a recklessly driven baggage cart, may strike you down and knock some sense into you. Then maybe we can speculate ridiculously about you causing your accident.

Well, I guess you feel better now. Glad to help.

There are four pages of posts dealing with this incident. Many speculate.

If I ever assume horizontal because of an aircraft accident, I can only hope that some of my pilot brethren would speculate that something out of my control caused my demise.

What are you going to say when the true buzzards begin to openly speculate that the pilots made a mistake? Methinks that your anger is displaced.

enigma

 

[enigma]

You suck dude!! WTF

I wasn't going to respond, but I'm feeling nasty this morning.

You can't read dude!! WTF

enigma

 

[enigma]

Leave it to enigma to say something stupid!!!!!

Leave it to a 39 post new member to say something stupid!!!!!!!!!!

enigma

 

[filejw]

It's been said before there should be a condolences thread and an accident thread.

 

[Metro752]

CHINESE GOBBLES KOIREAN WATER AGUA DULCE L70

 

[PGH STEEL]

Enigma you sound like a kid!!! An Idiot with more post than hours!!!

 

[unclematty]

Anyone know if Martinair held the contract to manage Circut City's Flight Operations? If memory serves, MartinAir had the contract approx. 2 years ago.

 

[enigma]

Enigma you sound like a kid!!! An Idiot with more post than hours!!!

Not a kid, just someone tired of idiots who can't read. And idiots who like to start crap just because this is an anonymous forum.

I've been here a long time. In the last few years, we've gained a lot of members who think that it's their job to offer up insults and flame. I just decided to strike back.

You'll never know how many hours I have, because it doesn't matter.


We all lost brothers in the accident that caused this thread to get started. We mourn them, their passengers, and all of their familys. We also come here to search for answers and find consolation amongst brothers. I speculated that some condition outside of the pilots control could have caused their demise. I won't apologize for trying to show that they were not the cause, nor will I stand by and take shots from idiots.

But I will let you have the last word. My last word will be this: I pray that the pilots were not at fault, and I'd do the same for you.

enigma

 

[pilotviolin]

THE USMC Encore crash final was CFIT.

 

[AA717driver]

Service, PGH and flyboy--Enigma was within his rights to post what he did. He wasn't accusing anyone of anything. We're all sad about this and we all know that stuff happens that can kill any of us regardless of our experience level.

I'm not one to jump on new members here but Enigma has been around this board a long time and has earned his stripes in this business. Until you know someone well here, it's best to tread lightly and assume they have good intentions.

Welcome aboard.TC

 

[hogdriver00]

Cfit

THE USMC Encore crash final was CFIT.Today 18:45



That's what I figured. Any other details?