CNN: Pilots accused of being drunk indicted

[greenpickle]

Technically, they weren't flying drunk anyway, only taxiing. also their blood alcohol was less than .10.

Yeh they wouldnt have taken off because I think they hadnt finished running the IM SAFE checklist and would have gone back to the gate.

 

[rumorhasit]

Call me paranoid....

Of course there is a main lesson to learn here but the second lesson is dont use your credit card. I hate those things. They are the big brother. I use cash for everything when I fly. You slide off a runway somewhere after a 0500 show and the next thing you know you got some lawyer showing you buying Advil from the next door gas station at 2:00 AM and arguing that you must have been fatiqued and sick when you had your incident.(contributing factors they will say). This could go for movies, pizza delivery, etc... Cash is the answer.

I am not paranoid, I just think it makes good sense.... I gotta go, I think someone is watching me.

GP

um okay...Paranoid...You have a dam good point!!!!

 

[~~~^~~~]

Put alcohol aside for a moment. If, rather then being under the influence of alcohol, one of the pilots had struck and killed a boarding passenger because the passenger made some snide remark about the airline, would we just take the perpetrator's pilot license away and call it a day? Would the State of Florida not be entitled to charge the pilot with the homicide? Of course not -- because the State of Florida is legally entitled to protect persons currently within its borders and prosecute those who harm or threaten to harm those persons.

No, if the cabin door is open, the aircraft is not "in flight" and the Federal Preemption does not apply. Further, beating up somebody is outside the scope of a Pilot's Certification, unless they are defending the flight deck.

Using your logic, we should bring manufacturers, mechanics, pilots and dispatchers all up on manslaughter charges when there is an accident. Plaintiff attorneys and politically motivated States' attorneys love to accuse these parties of negligence without proof ( or based on "creative" Expert testimony ).

Aviation safety works as well as it does because it is cooperative. Airlines and Pilots self report because we hope others will learn from our mistakes and the corrective actions that we employ. The NTSB is on record against the criminialization of aviation accidents. In both the Roselawn and TWA accidents the NTSB testified that law enforcement interferred in their investigations and destroyed crucial evidence.

Before we go off the deep end, suggesting that these Pilots were out to kill 100 pax ( because they were less than Florida's old DUI law, but more than their new one ) lets consider a much more dangerous and common threat - the 16 hour duty day. Repeated studies have proven that pilots are pretty whacked after 14 hours and react like drunks as they near 16 hours. If you want an issue to get inflamed about - ask why the airlines are fighting the Whitlow letter.

In the mean time, the America West pilots lost their jobs and certificates. They are no longer a threat to anyone and Florida should stop trying to expand their law for the purpose of political gain.

~~~^~~~

P.S. Love the Mini. Saw it in Marietta over the 4th. Delta should sell a kit! Wouldn't an RJ look better with the engines on the quarter windows and a T-Tail?

 

[~~~^~~~]

I appreciate your posts, but, uh, I think I am just a little closer to the legal process than you are.....nothing more needed to be said

My condolences. Gave it up to fly airplanes and darn glad I did.

 

[satpak77]

My condolences. Gave it up to fly airplanes and darn glad I did.

that makes two of us partner

from a "lets keep the discussion going" standpoint, as mature adults, I opinion....

Federal law regarding operating aircraft overrides any state law
Not sure how legal-wise the original state charges were, "operating a motor vehicle while under the influence, etc,etc" (???)

anyway, they are now both indicted in federal jurisdiction

lets see what shakes out.

My OPINION is that this will either be pled to a lesser charge or if it does go to trial, will not result in a conviction.

MY OPINION

 

[Looking4Traffic]

Quote:
Originally Posted by satpak77
I appreciate your posts, but, uh, I think I am just a little closer to the legal process than you are.....nothing more needed to be said


I'm not sure what this means -- you're a lawyer or a busted pilot?

If it's the former, than no, you're not any closer. If it's the later, good luck to you and I'm sorry to hear about your troubles. Best of luck.

 

[Resume Writer]

I am not going to get into a debate about whether or not these two had been drinking, as I was not there. When another AWA Captain came up to me at a Diamondbacks game the day this happened and told me two pilots had been busted for drinking, he could not remember who it was. Trust me, these two NEVER entered my mind.

From what I have been told, the aircraft was never released from the tug and tow bar, so the a/c was not under their command (if I understand the regulations right). Further, when these two asked to have a blood alcohol test, apparently it was not administered to them. (I cannot tell you how I know this, I just do.) They did, at least, have the fortitude to take off their pilot uniforms before the press got there.

Have they put a "black mark" on other pilots because of this? Yes. But let's let them have their day in court and be judged. I have flown with the Captain many times and he was always the utmost professional. I consider him a friend and have watched the toll this has taken on him and his family. However, I will say that if he indeed was drinking within the 8 hours (AWA is 12 hours), then something needs to be done.

I know for myself, I always took the 12 hour rule very seriously. When flights crews have the lives of passengers at stake, whether it be pilots or FA's, they have no business drinking inside the allocated time limits.

As the saying goes - live as if you are going to be found out, because you always will.

Kathy

 

[Resume Writer]

blzr-

By the way, you can get a dui in a parked car as long as the keys are in the ignition.

Let me take this one further. My mother is an ex DPS officer, as well as my dad, who is an ex PHX PD Officer. If the keys are anywhere you can reach them, you can be charged with DUI. So, putting them on the floor board, or dropping them just outside the car is not good enough.

However, people should not be drinking and driving. Call a cab if you are that drunk. I do not want to be on the receiving end of someone out of control in a vehicle that has been drinking.

Kathy

 

[blzr]

technically they were out of control... for the state of FLA, but below out of control on the federal level.

I just hate hearing they were flying under the influence when they weren't. Doesn't mean they weren't going to, just that they weren't.

We all make mistakes, we just don't always get caught.

 

[satpak77]

official press release

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/fls/formeramerwestpilots.html

charged with....

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/342.html


interestingly....

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/343.html

and did they meet the .10 standard, outlined in federal code?

....I mean, they are being prosecuted under the above code, so they must fulfill the minimum threshold for whatever crime XXXX code defines, no?

If the state hunting law says I cant shoot more than 5 deer in one day, and I shoot 3, they cant prosecute me for "the 5 deer rule"

?!?!?!?!?

alleged BAC level

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/08/05/pilots.hearing/


HMMMMMM

people, its not over till the fat lady sings

 

[CatYaaak]

Thats not a valid argument. A homocide has nothing to do with aviation and is against state law. Aviation is FEDERALLY regulated. End of story.

I agree they comitted a crime. But Florida has no right to prosecute. QUOTE]

I'm no legal expert, but it seems to me that just because an activity is federally regulated doesn't automatically follow that a state can't prosecute for what it deems to be a criminal acts when they're are commited outside what the Fed regs allow.

What you're suggesting is that we aquire some sort of State diplomatic immunity just because we're involved in aviation, or commit the act in question while sitting in/using an an airplane, to include threatening lives through willful acts. Ladder warning-labeling is also federally-regulated, but you're not immune from State prosecution if you try and bash someone's head in with an incorrectly-manufactured one.

If memory serves (someone correct me if I'm wrong), the FAR incident NWA pilots were prosecuted under Minnesota state law regarding being intoxicated while engaged in interstate commerce. I don't think it resulted in jail time, but I don't think there was a successful challenge to the State having the right to prosecute either...in other words, perhaps not convicted, but not immune.

 

[~~~^~~~]

What you're suggesting is that we aquire some sort of State diplomatic immunity just because we're involved in aviation, or commit the act in question while sitting in/using an an airplane, to include threatening lives through willful acts.

(someone correct me if I'm wrong)

Federal Law preempts State law. It makes no sense for the States to regulate aviation because airplanes operate across State lines. Would you like to have Florida, Georgia, Tennessee, Kentucky, Indiana, Illinois and Wisconsin Pilot's Certificates to go from Sun n Fun to Oshkosh? How about changing the definitions of airspace from State to State so you could learn the limitations of each territory for your Private license? ( Just wait until States figure out how to tax airplanes flying overhead )

A federal enactment may preempt state law either through (1) express statutory preemption; (2) implied preemption where the intent of the federal law is to occupy the field exclusively ("field preemption"); or (3) implied preemption where state and federal law actually conflict ("conflict preemption"). See Lorillard Tobacco Co. v. Reilly, 533 U.S. 525, 121 S. Ct. 2404, 2414 (2001); Crosby v. National Foreign Trade Council, 530 U.S. 363, 372-73 (2000); English v. General Elec. Co., 496 U.S. 72, 78-79 (1990). Conflict preemption may be found where the state law frustrates the purpose of the federal statutory scheme or where compliance with both the state and federal laws is physically impossible. See Crosby, 530 U.S. at 372-73; Geier v. American Honda Motor Co., Inc., 529 U.S. 861, 873 (2000); English, 496 U.S. at 79.

Local governments without aviation expertise, or training, should not try to expand their power into aviation. As pilots we should flight against this encroachment that threatens to reduce our freedom to operate aircraft and which reduces the high standards of aviation safety we enjoy in the United States under the National Transportation Safety Board and Federal Aviation Administration.

 

[Dr. B]

Drunk Pilots

Isn't stripping them of their licenses enough? They can never fly a plane again. That, and a stiff fine should be enough. No property was damaged and nobody was even hurt.

 

[satpak77]

Federal Law preempts State law. It makes no sense for the States to regulate aviation because airplanes operate across State lines. Would you like to have Florida, Georgia, Tennessee, Kentucky, Indiana, Illinois and Wisconsin Pilot's Certificates to go from Sun n Fun to Oshkosh? How about changing the definitions of airspace from State to State so you could learn the limitations of each territory for your Private license? ( Just wait until States figure out how to tax airplanes flying overhead )

very nice post, good

now, could you provide your own opinion now that we have the 18 USC 342 presumptions defined, which as .10 BAC?

these two guys did not meet .10 BAC.


thats why I think it was important to get it out of state court (.08 BAC), now its in federal, (.10 BAC), where it SHOULD die

you can indict a ham sandwich

 

[~~~^~~~]

Satpak :

I'm not saying these two should be indicted at all. Pragmatically, they should have called in sick and taken the Company's sanction. But, they didn't. They also closed the cabin door, which was an important distinction in the case. They were performing as pilots, even though they never disconnected from the tug.

Lyle Prouse and his crew actually flew a leg. I guess they are fortunate their destination was not in Florida.

The State of Florida has been eager to prosecute pilots and other aviation professionals since before the Val U Jet crash. They have appealed the Fed. District Court ruling in this case and have stated an intention to follow it through to the US Sup. Ct. That is their right as long as the taxpayers will stand for it.

IMHO all pilots should discourage this sort of State grandstanding.

So now a State's attorney has compelled the Feds to take action. What a shame.

~~~^~~~