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CMR Crash CVR released.

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Airboss

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 19, 2004
Posts
472
Pilot noted lack of lights before crash

By JEFFREY McMURRAY, Associated Press Writer 1 minute ago


Seconds before a commuter plane crashed after going down the wrong runway, the co-pilot noted it was "weird" that the Lexington, Ky., strip had no lights, according to a transcript released Wednesday.
The runway wasn't long enough for a passenger jet when Comair Flight 5191 took off in the pre-dawn darkness on Aug. 27.
Co-pilot James Polehinke said it was "weird with no lights," just seconds before the sound of the impact was heard, according to the National Transportation Safety Board transcript. The captain, Jeffrey Clay, then responded, "Yeah."
The crash killed 49 of 50 people on board. Polehinke, the lone survivor, lost a leg and suffered brain damage from the crash. He has told family members he remembers nothing about that morning.
According to federal investigators, Clay taxied the plane onto the wrong runway before Polehinke took over the controls for takeoff from Lexington's Blue Grass Airport.
Polehinke said, "I'll take us to Atlanta," and Clay responds, `sure."
According to the transcript, the last understandable word came from Clay just a second before the crash, when he said, "whoa."
It was the first time the public was given access to the transcripts of what the Comair pilots told each other in the cockpit during the ill-fated flight.
In a brief statement, Comair said, "We recognize the investigation is a long and difficult process for the families, especially when announcements — such as today's — receive intense public scrutiny. Our desire is to learn as much as we can in order to prevent these kinds of accidents from happening again."
Numerous lawsuits have been filed accusing Comair of negligence. However, the airline has sued Blue Grass Airport and the Federal Aviation Administration, asking that they share blame.
A week before the crash, the taxiways at Blue Grass were altered as part of a construction project, and the maps and charts used in the cockpits of Comair and other airlines weren't updated. The FAA did notify airlines of the changes through a separate announcement.
Only one controller was on duty when the plane crashed. The veteran controller cleared the flight for takeoff, then turned away to do administrative work, officials said. He didn't see the plane turn down the runway, try to take off and then crash in flames.







Copyright © 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. The information contained in the AP News report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press.
 
NTSB Releases Report
RECORDING FROM COCKPIT
5:44 a.m.
“I guess, when I’m, I’m deciding on making a major decision. If it doesn’t feel right in my gut or if I don’t have a little voice, if it starts talking to me; and I’m like, I need to reevaluate.”
5:55 a.m.
“Ladies and gentlemen from the flight deck, [I would] like to take this time to welcome you also onboard Comair flight 5191, direct flight to Atlanta. We will be cruising at 27,000 feet this morning. And once we do get in the air, it looks like one hour and seven minutes en route.
“Hopefully, you can catch a nap going into Atlanta. It’s our pleasure having you all on board.”
6:00 am.
“Both kids were sick, well, they all got colds. It was an interesting dinner last night.”
6:04 a.m.
“And, folks, one time from the flight deck, we would like to welcome you on board. We will be underway momentarily. Sit back, relax and enjoy the flight. Kelly, when you have a chance, please prepare the cabin.”
The plane's co-pilot said it was "weird" that the lights on the runway they were taking off from were not on.

wkyt.com
 
Co-pilot James Polehinke said it was "weird with no lights," just seconds before the sound of the impact was heard, according to the National Transportation Safety Board transcript. The captain, Jeffrey Clay, then responded, "Yeah."

Sounds like early morning complacency.
 
?

im looking for a link to the info released. it seems the ntsb does not have anything on their site, just a phone number to call and get the docket info. anybody know how to obtain the newly released docket info online?
 
For news media representatives, a CD-ROM containing the docket material will be available from the Office of Public Affairs, NTSB Headquarters (6th floor), 490 L'Enfant Plaza, S.W., Washington, D.C., beginning at 11:00a.m., Wednesday, January 17, 2007.
Docket material also can be obtained from the NTSB's Records Management Division by calling (202) 314-6551, or from General Microfilm, Inc., (304) 267-5830.
This will be a document release only; no interviews will be conducted.

I think you wil have to wait for the media to transcribe it.
 
partial CVR (cnn)
FO: dat is wierd with no lights
CP: yeah.
CP: one hundred knots.
FO: checks.
CP: V1, rotate
.......
CP:whoa. (unknown noise)
CP:expletive
(sound of impact)
 
partial CVR (cnn)
FO: dat is wierd with no lights
CP: yeah.
CP: one hundred knots.
FO: checks.
CP: V1, rotate
.......
CP:whoa. (unknown noise)
CP:expletive
(sound of impact)
Sounds like they almost made it. Complacency or not, this accident scares the crap out of me. How many times could this have happened to anyone else...
 
I always thought the CVR was to be kept private. Did the FO or his family have to give permission for this to be released? -Bean
 
I always thought the CVR was to be kept private. Did the FO or his family have to give permission for this to be released? -Bean


There is no restriction on the release of CVR transcripts (the family usually gets the first look). NTSB no longer releases actual CVR recordings.
 
This transcript apparently had normal checklist procedures edited out. I wish we could get the full transcript posted. I hate to point things out, but there was either a gap in Comair's SOP's regarding verification of correct runway, or those SOP's were not followed. I just wish we weren't having this thread in the first place.
 
There is no restriction on the release of CVR transcripts (the family usually gets the first look). NTSB no longer releases actual CVR recordings.

Didn't ALPA help stop the actual CVR recordings because of that AMR 757 that hit the mountain in South America was played on TV over and over?
I remember listening to the Eagle flights CVR over Indiana, man that was tuff to listen too.
 
FO: dat is wierd with no lights


From the timing this is referring to a T/O roll with no lights. It does not refer to the fact that the lighted runway was 100 ft in front of them when they started the T/O roll and they crossed it.

Earlier statements about lights out all over the place indicate a level of complacencyt.


And yes the truest statement is that "I just wish we weren't having this thread in the first place."
 
This transcript apparently had normal checklist procedures edited out. I wish we could get the full transcript posted. I hate to point things out, but there was either a gap in Comair's SOP's regarding verification of correct runway, or those SOP's were not followed. I just wish we weren't having this thread in the first place.

ASA just recently implemented a procedure for both the Capt and FO to cross check the aircraft's heading against the runway's magnetic heading and to physically verify the actual runway number painted on the ground.
 
Air Wiskey started doing this on the Before Takeoff Checklist in 2003 I think. Last line in the checklist "DG's.......Aligned"

Any other RJ operators do this? This procedure was to prevent EFIS COMP MONS on the roll and to verify heading with runway alignment. ORD was terrible for drifting dg's on the ground with magnetic interference.
 
Flew with an ALPA investigator and there is a lot of blame to throw around on this one.

The airport was approved to build a parking garage that obstructs the view from the tower of those runways. You can't see it even if you were looking. Paved over lines and numerous light outages.

Jepp plates that didn't show the changes at the time or even weeks after the accident.

Why it took so long for the fire trucks to get to the accident scene? Went to end of wrong runway first and then refused on the radio to tower to go through grass and fence the a/c went through to get to the accident scene. A lot of lost time getting to the scene.

The pilots will take the ultimate blame, but only about a quarter of the total blame. The FAA, airport and Jepps will take the rest.
 
Heres the complete transcripts in Full from entering the cockpit til the CVR loses power. Very sad, may they all RIP.

Comair5191 CVR transcripts


Here's an alternate link in case that one stops working for whatever reason.

I found it interesting that the news stories took phrases out of context to make it look like the pilots were hypocrites or not paying attention.

An example is the phrase where the FO is talking about how he always likes to double check before he makes a big decision and/or jumps into a situation. What he was really talking about was moving to the Middle East to fly for Emirates or some such company. Not about making major decisions in the airplane. Also "Whoa" was not the final word on the transcript. It continues for a few more seconds. I hate the media sometimes.

http://gray.ftp.clickability.com/wvltwebftp/pdf/comair.pdf
 
Last edited:
Air Wiskey started doing this on the Before Takeoff Checklist in 2003 I think. Last line in the checklist "DG's.......Aligned"

Any other RJ operators do this? This procedure was to prevent EFIS COMP MONS on the roll and to verify heading with runway alignment. ORD was terrible for drifting dg's on the ground with magnetic interference.

PDT had the PF with runway alignment, PM had the tower heading or whatever SID head set before crash!
After the Comair crash we have to confirm runway alignment right before T/O!!
Good thing I think! God rest all there souls!!!!!!!z
 
Eagle has a DG alignment both holding short and in position on the runway for the CRJ. This was in position before the Comair accident.
 
ABC News just completely b@stardized the CVR recording to 'sex it up' on the whole 'confused cockpit thing'! I know I shouldn't get worked up about this stuff, but this report just irked me. Wonder how these POS reporters would feel about having their office bugged and ever intimate detail of their daily life put on record. Man if I ever meet an 'aviation safety expert' employed by a major news network I'll pimp slap the mf...
 
I am putting myself in that cockpit thinking about the conversation and I can see this happening. The impression I get from the CVR was that the FO was head down doing a checklist while the CA turned on the wrong runway. Then, as they accelerated the CA was head down watching engine instruments as thrust was set and airspeed accelerated. He called 100 knots. Is this standard at Comair? I thought 80 knots was standard but it could be different at each airline I guess. It seemed to happen very fast. The CA was head down and right at the moment of rotation they ran off the runway. No time to react or comprehend fully what was happening. I would like to see the FDR animation or at least find out if thrust was thrown all the way up right after running off the pavement. Not that I think I could have done it just wondering. I bet there was a lot of surprise in that scene.

God rest all their souls.
 
ABC News just completely b@stardized the CVR recording to 'sex it up' on the whole 'confused cockpit thing'! I know I shouldn't get worked up about this stuff, but this report just irked me. Wonder how these POS reporters would feel about having their office bugged and ever intimate detail of their daily life put on record. Man if I ever meet an 'aviation safety expert' employed by a major news network I'll pimp slap the mf...

I just saw that too. Very unprofessional.
 
dont know if anyone thought of this or not, but as i read the trans i was trying to think about how to improve to make it safer for all. not an absolute blame nor am i balming anyone but what are your opinons on ATC being requried to give you a heading as opposed to just "fly runway heading". if this policy was implemented it could prevent accidents such as this in the future. something like comair fly heading 220 climb altitude may have brought up a question as to thier present heading for departure? just a thought wanted to see what you think and get some sugestions on improving the safety for all crewmembers and passengers.
 
dont know if anyone thought of this or not, but as i read the trans i was trying to think about how to improve to make it safer for all. not an absolute blame nor am i balming anyone but what are your opinons on ATC being requried to give you a heading as opposed to just "fly runway heading". if this policy was implemented it could prevent accidents such as this in the future. something like comair fly heading 220 climb altitude may have brought up a question as to thier present heading for departure? just a thought wanted to see what you think and get some sugestions on improving the safety for all crewmembers and passengers.

I never really thought about that before, but I think that is a really good idea, It would add NO workload to the tower guy, the only thing would be is that if they turned 220 into the heading indicator and thought they needed to make a turn after takeoff.....
 
good catch bizman

okay correct that to "comair fly runway heading 220 cleared for t/O" maybe if they were requried to include the runway heading with instructions to fly runway heading. thanks for the imput
 
Yes, that's the standard call here.


Ahhh... ok thanks. Not sure that it matters but does anyone have an opinion on making it 80 knots rather than 100 because you will spend less time head down waiting for the call as Pilot Not Flying?

There is no one panasea answer here. I think all suggestion might be good ones if they are offered with the intent to help.
 
I always keep one thing in mind everytime an airplane makes a smoking hole in the ground... It could happen to me too. What these guys did, anybody could have made that mistake. (But if you think you're above that sort of thing, I wouldn't want to fly with you.)

Let's just learn from it. Too many lives lost in other events just to discount it because you "know" you're a better pilot than that.
 
Ahhh... ok thanks. Not sure that it matters but does anyone have an opinion on making it 80 knots rather than 100 because you will spend less time head down waiting for the call as Pilot Not Flying?

There is no one panasea answer here. I think all suggestion might be good ones if they are offered with the intent to help.

80 or 100, as long as aviation exists, there will be accidents. Accidents are never intentional and safety is no accident.
 

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