C'mon July

[Sparse]

Same as my experience at a IBT place that went out of business, they took dues out of severance pay.

Exactly the reason to never give in to unions demand for dues checkbook. It's like giving someone your checking account routing numbers. When the union gets dues check off and agency shop, it has a predictable and some what guaranteed income stream and any incentive to listen to members is diminished.

 

[pilotyip]

Just so we're clear, this is where you're full of crap.

Wow! you are really excited about this, frustrated with a post, so resort to name calling. But it is so FI it is to be expected. So back to the beginning how is being laid off with a CBA, different than being laid off without a CBA? You are still unemployed, and like the CBA covered NJ pilots, it is for a real real long time. But a number of NJ guys have found employement at KYIP

 

[imacdog]

Calling you full of crap is not name-calling. It is calling you out on your statements that are entirely incorrect. Still can't answer my question, I see. Why is it, that NetJets can make the changes to their operation necessary for financial turnaround, while having a unionized pilots work force? I typed really slow this time so you should be able to read it better.

 

[gunfyter]

How does Southwest make profits?

 

[CA1900]

... how is being laid off with a CBA, different than being laid off without a CBA? You are still unemployed, and like the CBA covered NJ pilots, it is for a real real long time.

Well, just to pick one example, the NJ pilots will have the opportunity to return when recalls happen, and with the same date of hire. For a different example, look at Flexjet, which will offer recalls the opportunity to interview for their old jobs, and start them back off at year 1 if they're "lucky" enough to get their jobs back.

 

[SDCFI]

Well, just to pick one example, the NJ pilots will have the opportunity to return when recalls happen, and with the same date of hire. For a different example, look at Flexjet, which will offer recalls the opportunity to interview for their old jobs, and start them back off at year 1 if they're "lucky" enough to get their jobs back.

This. Without a contract there is nothing stopping FX management (military intelligence) from cutting pay or benefits, furloughing out of seniority, or doing any number of things to pad their bonuses at the expense of employees. The only reason they haven't yet is they have been smart enough so far to realize that doing so would result in an immediate union vote. They know just how good to treat us to make sure that doesn't happen.

If CA did what they did because of the union it would be a classic case of cutting off your nose to spite your face. So tell me: if CA getting a union was such a hardship why is Avantair, a non-union (pilots anyway) company that already pays lower than average wages and benefits, freezing pay and cutting vacation while they stop their growth and the stock is tanking? Can't blame the union there. Could it be the sorry state of the industry and maybe poor management? Nah, couldn't be. Gotta be those darn (non)union employees.

 

[Smooth Cruz]

Ultimately the blame for CA woes come from the top. They operated in the red from the get-go, everyone in management will admit that. Add to that their parent company, cessna, whos business has tanked during the great recession due to aircraft cancellations worth billions and thier subsidiary, CA, losing $40 million per year. Management wasn't going to save CA, the union won't save it either, it was only a matter of time for the hammer to come down. Opinion now, union vote was all bad timing. The reality is, no pilot believes Cessna is committed to CA long term survival, and the proof of that is the mass exodus of the pilots from the top of the seniority list down.

 

[pilotyip]

How does Southwest make profits?

They have a successful business model, CA dosen't. Having a successful business model really has little to do with if a company is union or non-union, the same as a failing business model has little to do with if a company is union or non-union.

BTW SWA is no longer the low cost airline and is under tremendous pressure to maintain profitability where the payroll cost have increased by almost 70% in the last 10 years as it moved into the status of a mature airline where most of employees are near the top of the pay scale. I wish them nothing but the best, they are great bunch of guys over there, but as the hiring boom brings more entry level wages into the other mainline carries and SWA does not see the same turnover because of a younger group of pilots at SWA, it will put more pressure on SWA profitability.

Well, just to pick one example, the NJ pilots will have the opportunity to return when recalls happen, and with the same date of hire. For a different example, look at Flexjet, which will offer recalls the opportunity to interview for their old jobs, and start them back off at year 1 if they're "lucky" enough to get their jobs back.

They are still unemployed for 10 years and many most likely will have better jobs than NJ after being on the street for 10 years. Plus many will be in their late 60's by that time and a seniority number at NJ will be, well just nice to have.

Back to the start of this in my posting; unions have nothing to do with job security, you can find yourself unemployed for a long time at an union company. Recall rights are lovely, but they do not pay the bills

 

[Smooth Cruz]

unions offer benefit security until a bankruptcy judge throws out the contract.

 

[imacdog]

Still can't answer my question YIP?

 

[pilotyip]

Still can't answer my question YIP?

what was the question again? There has been a lot of stuff flying around

 

[imacdog]

Now you're just dodging. I even typed post 48 really slow for you to read it better, I guess even that wasn't enough?

 

[Smooth Cruz]

Netjets has to be successful, they are good at what they do, if they fail there is nothing left. If CA fails, cessna is left making airplanes. NJASAP has a vested interest in their company's success. So do CA pilots, unfortunately the current events at CA has forced the pilots to seek employment elsewhere.

 

[pilotyip]

Now you're just dodging. I even typed post 48 really slow for you to read it better, I guess even that wasn't enough?

from post #53, did you not tread this one? I will repsot it for your readign pleasure. CA doesn't. (A successful business model) Having a successful business model really has little to do with if a company is union or non-union, the same as a failing business model has little to do with if a company is union or non-union.

 

[imacdog]

What you say above YIP directly conflicts with the quote below. So which is it? A union makes it so difficult for a company to make changes to remain competitive that it might be easier to shut down, or that having a union makes no difference whatsoever to the way the company conducts its business?

And there is nothing a union can do about that, exceept to make it so hard to make changes that it is easier to shut it down.