C'mon July

[Jetz]

Source?

I can't wait till July. Then it will be time for CitationAir to vote OUT the mess they call the Teamsters. I hope CA management keeps stalling with the negotiating joke. After that, there will still be hope for us.

Huh? Tell us more.

 

[OHGOON]

Huh? Tell us more.

He can't because Bogey knows nothing. He will know even less, "next July."

It's highly entertaining to observe how the same logic, or lack of, which allows some to firmly believe the "Flintstones" are a documentary, is at work here.

Lock and load boys, all things will be back to normal "next July." All we have to do is vote em out. LOL, good luck with the card count. :nuts:

To illustrate a bit further:
Rumor has it that Steve O'Neill is waiting in the wings to bring back CitationAir's former glory just as soon as those pesky Union lovers are put back in their place. Sort of like Gene Hackman in Crimson Tide?

For his next trick, Mr Bogart will attempt to explain how Einstein's Theory of Relativity will conclusively be debunked by the Easter Bunny. Off course we will have to wait until "next July."

Thanks for the laughs but now I think I may have to... uke:

 

[Sparse]

I bet the Teamsters quit CA before CA can quit the Teamsters because it is all about the dues. I wonder how many are paying dues? I would be willing to bet that less than fifty percent of the pilots are paying dues. If the vote were held today it would not pass. Cessna has pulled the rug out from under the pilots. They have burst the bubble. I bet there is not a pilot at CA at least considering other jobs.

 

[OHGOON]

I bet the Teamsters quit CA before CA can quit the Teamsters because it is all about the dues. I wonder how many are paying dues? I would be willing to bet that less than fifty percent of the pilots are paying dues. If the vote were held today it would not pass. Cessna has pulled the rug out from under the pilots. They have burst the bubble. I bet there is not a pilot at CA at least considering other jobs.

From where I sit, no one is quitting, not even the naysayers.

As far as the rest of this, exactly what is your point? Unions, voting and most other things in general besides death and taxes are never inevitable. Not sure I really follow??

 

[rigger]

And to answer they pro union lovers on here. Yes CA was a better place before the Union, not perfect but better! Yes there were guys fired and yes there were guys that got in trouble, and yes you got extended sometimes, and yes you worked overtime sometimes, and yes there were times management seemed not to care.....wow sounds like a real honest American company.....huh what a concept to have in America, but they always did what they said they would do! They always paid when they said they would pay, vacation was always given when they said you could take it, they always listened when you said the plane was broken. Heck they even made it a seniority list company when there was no union! They furloughed both times in seniority order and brought back in seniority order all without a union.....then we get a union, and tada the company changes the business plan completely and creates a new company.....I know it's just a coincidence like say the economy still in the shambles it is in Obama and the CA union had nothing to do with either......

 

[pilotyip]

And to answer they pro union lovers on here. Yes CA was a better place before the Union, not perfect but better! Yes there were guys fired and yes there were guys that got in trouble, and yes you got extended sometimes, and yes you worked overtime sometimes, and yes there were times management seemed not to care.....wow sounds like a real honest American company.....huh what a concept to have in America, but they always did what they said they would do! They always paid when they said they would pay, vacation was always given when they said you could take it, they always listened when you said the plane was broken. Heck they even made it a seniority list company when there was no union! They furloughed both times in seniority order and brought back in seniority order all without a union.....then we get a union, and tada the company changes the business plan completely and creates a new company.....I know it's just a coincidence like say the economy still in the shambles it is in Obama and the CA union had nothing to do with either......

Stop that! this is FI, where unions always result in the perfect job with no drawbacks and without a union there are no benefits for working for that company.

 

[imacdog]

Stop that! this is FI, where unions always result in the perfect job with no drawbacks and without a union there are no benefits for working for that company.

So YIP why don't you explain why the union vote at CA is responsible for the company's woes now.

 

[pilotyip]

So YIP why don't you explain why the union vote at CA is responsible for the company's woes now.

Don't have to, I think rigger did a fine job of exposing the reality of the real world.

 

[Pervis]

It's tough to blame the union when there has yet to be a CBA put in place to blame, don't you think?

 

[rigger]

It's tough to blame the union when there has yet to be a CBA put in place to blame, don't you think?

No not at all. It actually follows common sense. The year leading up to the union vote was very troubling for the company and for it'employees. Every day the company was spending time,money,and energy that could better have been put in something else like say....o I don't know growing the company out of rescession induced downturn.....despite the rumblings in the background they actually did it, and was the first ( and only company) to bring all furloughed guys back on property! This was the time the union thought would be great to make the final push and get the union installed! The president started to concentrate 90% of managements time on Union coming issues and assured the Cessna board and the Textron board his business plan and his Union plan would work. Union plan failed, Cessna pulled out plan 2 change company business plan and company president, replace all re-create business as something else. Since then the company has downsized the pilot group to the point the union has no teeth at all..... I'm with whoever said the teamsters will leave CA first.

When the furloughs were first announce the first email from the Teamsters were all containing the language of you must pay your dues, don't stop even if your being furloughed, we need the money and the teamsters will help get your job back( excuse me, the company had already done this without them during the first time around)

 

[Praetorian]

No not at all. It actually follows common sense. The year leading up to the union vote was very troubling for the company and for it'employees. Every day the company was spending time,money,and energy that could better have been put in something else like say....o I don't know growing the company out of rescession induced downturn.....despite the rumblings in the background they actually did it, and was the first ( and only company) to bring all furloughed guys back on property! This was the time the union thought would be great to make the final push and get the union installed! The president started to concentrate 90% of managements time on Union coming issues and assured the Cessna board and the Textron board his business plan and his Union plan would work. Union plan failed, Cessna pulled out plan 2 change company business plan and company president, replace all re-create business as something else. Since then the company has downsized the pilot group to the point the union has no teeth at all..... I'm with whoever said the teamsters will leave CA first.

When the furloughs were first announce the first email from the Teamsters were all containing the language of you must pay your dues, don't stop even if your being furloughed, we need the money and the teamsters will help get your job back( excuse me, the company had already done this without them during the first time around)

Yea it was either this ^^, or Cessna sold the CA pilots down the river when they signed the non-compete with NJ as part of that big aircraft order. :erm:

 

[pilotyip]

When the furloughs were first announce the first email from the Teamsters were all containing the language of you must pay your dues, don't stop even if your being furloughed, we need the money and the teamsters will help get your job back( excuse me, the company had already done this without them during the first time around)

Same as my experience at a IBT place that went out of business, they took dues out of severance pay.

 

[imacdog]

Don't have to, I think rigger did a fine job of exposing the reality of the real world.

So you can't. Fair enough. It's a good thing the Avantair pilots stayed non-union, life seems pretty good there.

 

[bailout]

No not at all. It actually follows common sense. The year leading up to the union vote was very troubling for the company and for it'employees. Every day the company was spending time,money,and energy that could better have been put in something else like say....o I don't know growing the company out of rescession induced downturn.....despite the rumblings in the background they actually did it, and was the first ( and only company) to bring all furloughed guys back on property! This was the time the union thought would be great to make the final push and get the union installed! The president started to concentrate 90% of managements time on Union coming issues and assured the Cessna board and the Textron board his business plan and his Union plan would work. Union plan failed, Cessna pulled out plan 2 change company business plan and company president, replace all re-create business as something else.

Cessna could care less if CA is unionized. CA obviously didnt want the union because it hampers the changes they want to make and they lose control. Plan B, has nothing to do with the union. Plan B is in effect because CA was bleeding money badly. Plan B would have happened just the same with or without a union. The only thing a union does is hopefully lead to some kind a CBA whereas the company cant make new policy changes on a whim with discussion with the union. (You know, like the new retro active sick policy.)

And trust me, this is not a prounion writ, its just "common sense". The smaller the company gets, the more the pilots will need union protection. And if you dont believe that, ask me next year when the pay cuts and base changes take effect.

 

[Sparse]

And trust me, this is not a prounion writ, its just "common sense". The smaller the company gets, the more the pilots will need union protection. And if you dont believe that, ask me next year when the pay cuts and base changes take effect.

So are you saying there won't be a CBA by next year when the payouts and base changes happen? If so what use is the union anyway?

Help me understand. We need a union to avoid the aforementioned scenario but the union can only help if we have a CBA.

The company can drag all this out for years. If we get a CBA it will be based on a charter model not fractional.

As it stands the CA pilots have no horsepower in forcing the company's hand to come to terms on a descent CBA. I suspect less than half are paying dues.

 

[bailout]

So are you saying there won't be a CBA by next year when the payouts and base changes happen? If so what use is the union anyway?

Help me understand. We need a union to avoid the aforementioned scenario but the union can only help if we have a CBA.

The company can drag all this out for years. If we get a CBA it will be based on a charter model not fractional.

As it stands the CA pilots have no horsepower in forcing the company's hand to come to terms on a descent CBA. I suspect less than half are paying dues.

You are correct. It is a catch-22. But it has to start somewhere. The main benefit of having a union will be the bargaining power to get the things back that they are taking away now or will change in the future before the CBA is reached. Without that, the company is free to do whatever they see fit without any recourse. Once a CBA is reached, they can only make changes after talking with the union and working out a mutual solution. You can bet the company is going to make as many changes as possible before the CBA is in place and make us bargain to get them back or better. Without a union, there would be no bargaining back up. Whether you are pro or anti union doesnt really matter, that is the reality of the situation.
As I mentioned, this was not a prounion writ, just trying to explain the situation to some who dont seem to understand how this works. As far as paying dues, thats everybodies choice but only MIGS get to vote on the CBA, so if only 5 people are paying, then only 5 people get to decide the fate of the rest of the pilot group. And once it's reached, those not paying will have to pay a lump sum back within the next pay cycle. So it's a choice, but just be prepared for the result. I know some are not paying and hoping the union will go away. Once again, that is their choice and I am not advacating the union one way or the other.

That being said, the point of my first post, was that Cessna's reorganizational "plan B", would have happened with or without the union. Thats a fact...

 

[rigger]

(That being said, the point of my first post, was that Cessna's reorganizational "plan B", would have happened with or without the union. Thats a fact..)

Nope....S.O. would not have left ( forced out) he was the driving force and push behind the huge amount spent to do the reorganization.....(that by the way was actually working)! He was the first to tell me....good luck, you guys have no idea what you just did. I was on many flights with the hot shots from CA and from Cessna after the vote.....many things were talked about regarding what the next steps were, and how SO. Was not able to do what he said he could do to keep the project going.....He was then replaced and the rest is history!

But if it makes you feel better thinking that they already decided to do the change before the vote go right ahead....based on what actually happened plan B would never have been instituted if the union was not voted in......this is how business runs, and Unions are always in the middle of the rule of unintended consequences

 

[rigger]

That sounded snarky.....not intended, my point is the Union vote and Union coming into the company put plan B into operation, perhaps this would have eventually happened anyway, but we will never know.

 

[pilotyip]

That sounded snarky.....not intended, my point is the Union vote and Union coming into the company put plan B into operation, perhaps this would have eventually happened anyway, but we will never know.

Why is there no addressing that the CA business model was not sustainable and changes needed to be made in order to attempt to save the company? Without changes there is no company. As stated many times before a union can not provide job security and often bring about a quicker death of the company by resisting changes that need to be made.

 

[Sparse]

That being said, the point of my first post, was that Cessna's reorganizational "plan B", would have happened with or without the union. Thats a fact...

I agree. Textron and Cessna are being run by former GE execs. They were not got to stand for forty million per year losses. Cessna is in the business of selling airplanes. When the fractional model was going full swing they were selling plenty of airplanes though CA. The changes were coming whether we liked it or not.