C'mon July

[Praetorian]

No not at all. It actually follows common sense. The year leading up to the union vote was very troubling for the company and for it'employees. Every day the company was spending time,money,and energy that could better have been put in something else like say....o I don't know growing the company out of rescession induced downturn.....despite the rumblings in the background they actually did it, and was the first ( and only company) to bring all furloughed guys back on property! This was the time the union thought would be great to make the final push and get the union installed! The president started to concentrate 90% of managements time on Union coming issues and assured the Cessna board and the Textron board his business plan and his Union plan would work. Union plan failed, Cessna pulled out plan 2 change company business plan and company president, replace all re-create business as something else. Since then the company has downsized the pilot group to the point the union has no teeth at all..... I'm with whoever said the teamsters will leave CA first.

When the furloughs were first announce the first email from the Teamsters were all containing the language of you must pay your dues, don't stop even if your being furloughed, we need the money and the teamsters will help get your job back( excuse me, the company had already done this without them during the first time around)

Yea it was either this ^^, or Cessna sold the CA pilots down the river when they signed the non-compete with NJ as part of that big aircraft order. :erm:

 

[pilotyip]

When the furloughs were first announce the first email from the Teamsters were all containing the language of you must pay your dues, don't stop even if your being furloughed, we need the money and the teamsters will help get your job back( excuse me, the company had already done this without them during the first time around)

Same as my experience at a IBT place that went out of business, they took dues out of severance pay.

 

[imacdog]

Don't have to, I think rigger did a fine job of exposing the reality of the real world.

So you can't. Fair enough. It's a good thing the Avantair pilots stayed non-union, life seems pretty good there.

 

[bailout]

No not at all. It actually follows common sense. The year leading up to the union vote was very troubling for the company and for it'employees. Every day the company was spending time,money,and energy that could better have been put in something else like say....o I don't know growing the company out of rescession induced downturn.....despite the rumblings in the background they actually did it, and was the first ( and only company) to bring all furloughed guys back on property! This was the time the union thought would be great to make the final push and get the union installed! The president started to concentrate 90% of managements time on Union coming issues and assured the Cessna board and the Textron board his business plan and his Union plan would work. Union plan failed, Cessna pulled out plan 2 change company business plan and company president, replace all re-create business as something else.

Cessna could care less if CA is unionized. CA obviously didnt want the union because it hampers the changes they want to make and they lose control. Plan B, has nothing to do with the union. Plan B is in effect because CA was bleeding money badly. Plan B would have happened just the same with or without a union. The only thing a union does is hopefully lead to some kind a CBA whereas the company cant make new policy changes on a whim with discussion with the union. (You know, like the new retro active sick policy.)

And trust me, this is not a prounion writ, its just "common sense". The smaller the company gets, the more the pilots will need union protection. And if you dont believe that, ask me next year when the pay cuts and base changes take effect.

 

[Sparse]

And trust me, this is not a prounion writ, its just "common sense". The smaller the company gets, the more the pilots will need union protection. And if you dont believe that, ask me next year when the pay cuts and base changes take effect.

So are you saying there won't be a CBA by next year when the payouts and base changes happen? If so what use is the union anyway?

Help me understand. We need a union to avoid the aforementioned scenario but the union can only help if we have a CBA.

The company can drag all this out for years. If we get a CBA it will be based on a charter model not fractional.

As it stands the CA pilots have no horsepower in forcing the company's hand to come to terms on a descent CBA. I suspect less than half are paying dues.

 

[bailout]

So are you saying there won't be a CBA by next year when the payouts and base changes happen? If so what use is the union anyway?

Help me understand. We need a union to avoid the aforementioned scenario but the union can only help if we have a CBA.

The company can drag all this out for years. If we get a CBA it will be based on a charter model not fractional.

As it stands the CA pilots have no horsepower in forcing the company's hand to come to terms on a descent CBA. I suspect less than half are paying dues.

You are correct. It is a catch-22. But it has to start somewhere. The main benefit of having a union will be the bargaining power to get the things back that they are taking away now or will change in the future before the CBA is reached. Without that, the company is free to do whatever they see fit without any recourse. Once a CBA is reached, they can only make changes after talking with the union and working out a mutual solution. You can bet the company is going to make as many changes as possible before the CBA is in place and make us bargain to get them back or better. Without a union, there would be no bargaining back up. Whether you are pro or anti union doesnt really matter, that is the reality of the situation.
As I mentioned, this was not a prounion writ, just trying to explain the situation to some who dont seem to understand how this works. As far as paying dues, thats everybodies choice but only MIGS get to vote on the CBA, so if only 5 people are paying, then only 5 people get to decide the fate of the rest of the pilot group. And once it's reached, those not paying will have to pay a lump sum back within the next pay cycle. So it's a choice, but just be prepared for the result. I know some are not paying and hoping the union will go away. Once again, that is their choice and I am not advacating the union one way or the other.

That being said, the point of my first post, was that Cessna's reorganizational "plan B", would have happened with or without the union. Thats a fact...

 

[rigger]

(That being said, the point of my first post, was that Cessna's reorganizational "plan B", would have happened with or without the union. Thats a fact..)

Nope....S.O. would not have left ( forced out) he was the driving force and push behind the huge amount spent to do the reorganization.....(that by the way was actually working)! He was the first to tell me....good luck, you guys have no idea what you just did. I was on many flights with the hot shots from CA and from Cessna after the vote.....many things were talked about regarding what the next steps were, and how SO. Was not able to do what he said he could do to keep the project going.....He was then replaced and the rest is history!

But if it makes you feel better thinking that they already decided to do the change before the vote go right ahead....based on what actually happened plan B would never have been instituted if the union was not voted in......this is how business runs, and Unions are always in the middle of the rule of unintended consequences

 

[rigger]

That sounded snarky.....not intended, my point is the Union vote and Union coming into the company put plan B into operation, perhaps this would have eventually happened anyway, but we will never know.

 

[pilotyip]

That sounded snarky.....not intended, my point is the Union vote and Union coming into the company put plan B into operation, perhaps this would have eventually happened anyway, but we will never know.

Why is there no addressing that the CA business model was not sustainable and changes needed to be made in order to attempt to save the company? Without changes there is no company. As stated many times before a union can not provide job security and often bring about a quicker death of the company by resisting changes that need to be made.

 

[Sparse]

That being said, the point of my first post, was that Cessna's reorganizational "plan B", would have happened with or without the union. Thats a fact...

I agree. Textron and Cessna are being run by former GE execs. They were not got to stand for forty million per year losses. Cessna is in the business of selling airplanes. When the fractional model was going full swing they were selling plenty of airplanes though CA. The changes were coming whether we liked it or not.

 

[pilotyip]

I agree. Textron and Cessna are being run by former GE execs. They were not got to stand for forty million per year losses. Cessna is in the business of selling airplanes. When the fractional model was going full swing they were selling plenty of airplanes though CA. The changes were coming whether we liked it or not.

And there is nothing a union can do about that, exceept to make it so hard to make changes that it is easier to shut it down.

 

[imacdog]

YIP if USAJet pilots wanted to organize, would your head explode?

Also, could you answer why NetJets has been able to make changes resulting in profit turnarounds while also having a unionized pilot group with a CBA?

 

[pilotyip]

Also, could you answer why NetJets has been able to make changes resulting in profit turnarounds while also having a unionized pilot group with a CBA?

yea they laid off around 500 pilots for up to 10 years, same a CA is doing, the unions could nothing about that. like I said job security and a union really don't have much to do with each other. BTW The trouble with FI is if you are not 100% banner carrying union supporter, you must be 100% against all union activity. The truth lies somewhere in the middle, but don't ever post that because the arrows will fly.

 

[imacdog]

I'm not talking about layoffs. I'm talking the health of the company. If NetJets, a unionized company, can make a turnaround in their business, even with a pilot CBA, doesn't that make you full of crap?

 

[imacdog]

Why is there no addressing that the CA business model was not sustainable and changes needed to be made in order to attempt to save the company? Without changes there is no company. As stated many times before a union can not provide job security and often bring about a quicker death of the company by resisting changes that need to be made.

Just so we're clear, this is where you're full of crap.

 

[Sparse]

Same as my experience at a IBT place that went out of business, they took dues out of severance pay.

Exactly the reason to never give in to unions demand for dues checkbook. It's like giving someone your checking account routing numbers. When the union gets dues check off and agency shop, it has a predictable and some what guaranteed income stream and any incentive to listen to members is diminished.

 

[pilotyip]

Just so we're clear, this is where you're full of crap.

Wow! you are really excited about this, frustrated with a post, so resort to name calling. But it is so FI it is to be expected. So back to the beginning how is being laid off with a CBA, different than being laid off without a CBA? You are still unemployed, and like the CBA covered NJ pilots, it is for a real real long time. But a number of NJ guys have found employement at KYIP

 

[imacdog]

Calling you full of crap is not name-calling. It is calling you out on your statements that are entirely incorrect. Still can't answer my question, I see. Why is it, that NetJets can make the changes to their operation necessary for financial turnaround, while having a unionized pilots work force? I typed really slow this time so you should be able to read it better.

 

[gunfyter]

How does Southwest make profits?

 

[CA1900]

... how is being laid off with a CBA, different than being laid off without a CBA? You are still unemployed, and like the CBA covered NJ pilots, it is for a real real long time.

Well, just to pick one example, the NJ pilots will have the opportunity to return when recalls happen, and with the same date of hire. For a different example, look at Flexjet, which will offer recalls the opportunity to interview for their old jobs, and start them back off at year 1 if they're "lucky" enough to get their jobs back.

 

[SDCFI]

Well, just to pick one example, the NJ pilots will have the opportunity to return when recalls happen, and with the same date of hire. For a different example, look at Flexjet, which will offer recalls the opportunity to interview for their old jobs, and start them back off at year 1 if they're "lucky" enough to get their jobs back.

This. Without a contract there is nothing stopping FX management (military intelligence) from cutting pay or benefits, furloughing out of seniority, or doing any number of things to pad their bonuses at the expense of employees. The only reason they haven't yet is they have been smart enough so far to realize that doing so would result in an immediate union vote. They know just how good to treat us to make sure that doesn't happen.

If CA did what they did because of the union it would be a classic case of cutting off your nose to spite your face. So tell me: if CA getting a union was such a hardship why is Avantair, a non-union (pilots anyway) company that already pays lower than average wages and benefits, freezing pay and cutting vacation while they stop their growth and the stock is tanking? Can't blame the union there. Could it be the sorry state of the industry and maybe poor management? Nah, couldn't be. Gotta be those darn (non)union employees.

 

[Smooth Cruz]

Ultimately the blame for CA woes come from the top. They operated in the red from the get-go, everyone in management will admit that. Add to that their parent company, cessna, whos business has tanked during the great recession due to aircraft cancellations worth billions and thier subsidiary, CA, losing $40 million per year. Management wasn't going to save CA, the union won't save it either, it was only a matter of time for the hammer to come down. Opinion now, union vote was all bad timing. The reality is, no pilot believes Cessna is committed to CA long term survival, and the proof of that is the mass exodus of the pilots from the top of the seniority list down.

 

[pilotyip]

How does Southwest make profits?

They have a successful business model, CA dosen't. Having a successful business model really has little to do with if a company is union or non-union, the same as a failing business model has little to do with if a company is union or non-union.

BTW SWA is no longer the low cost airline and is under tremendous pressure to maintain profitability where the payroll cost have increased by almost 70% in the last 10 years as it moved into the status of a mature airline where most of employees are near the top of the pay scale. I wish them nothing but the best, they are great bunch of guys over there, but as the hiring boom brings more entry level wages into the other mainline carries and SWA does not see the same turnover because of a younger group of pilots at SWA, it will put more pressure on SWA profitability.

Well, just to pick one example, the NJ pilots will have the opportunity to return when recalls happen, and with the same date of hire. For a different example, look at Flexjet, which will offer recalls the opportunity to interview for their old jobs, and start them back off at year 1 if they're "lucky" enough to get their jobs back.

They are still unemployed for 10 years and many most likely will have better jobs than NJ after being on the street for 10 years. Plus many will be in their late 60's by that time and a seniority number at NJ will be, well just nice to have.

Back to the start of this in my posting; unions have nothing to do with job security, you can find yourself unemployed for a long time at an union company. Recall rights are lovely, but they do not pay the bills

 

[Smooth Cruz]

unions offer benefit security until a bankruptcy judge throws out the contract.

 

[imacdog]

Still can't answer my question YIP?

 

[pilotyip]

Still can't answer my question YIP?

what was the question again? There has been a lot of stuff flying around

 

[imacdog]

Now you're just dodging. I even typed post 48 really slow for you to read it better, I guess even that wasn't enough?

 

[Smooth Cruz]

Netjets has to be successful, they are good at what they do, if they fail there is nothing left. If CA fails, cessna is left making airplanes. NJASAP has a vested interest in their company's success. So do CA pilots, unfortunately the current events at CA has forced the pilots to seek employment elsewhere.

 

[pilotyip]

Now you're just dodging. I even typed post 48 really slow for you to read it better, I guess even that wasn't enough?

from post #53, did you not tread this one? I will repsot it for your readign pleasure. CA doesn't. (A successful business model) Having a successful business model really has little to do with if a company is union or non-union, the same as a failing business model has little to do with if a company is union or non-union.

 

[imacdog]

What you say above YIP directly conflicts with the quote below. So which is it? A union makes it so difficult for a company to make changes to remain competitive that it might be easier to shut down, or that having a union makes no difference whatsoever to the way the company conducts its business?

And there is nothing a union can do about that, exceept to make it so hard to make changes that it is easier to shut it down.