Climb Gradient Question

[murfdawg998]

Thanks everyone for the discussions...for me this has been all very timely, relevant stuff. I'm going to EGE tomorrow.

MURF

 

[Beechjetr]

\ A be-400 is under part 25 the afm does have two engine climb chart.

What AFM do you have? SHOW me the 2 eng climb chart for a be-400.

 

[MauleSkinner]

What AFM do you have? SHOW me the 2 eng climb chart for a be-400.

Landing climb

 

[Beechjetr]

Landing climb

couple issues...

Associted Conditions
Flaps - 30
Gear - Down

 

[Lead Sled]

It says it in part 135. Under 91 there is no requirement to make the TERPS climb gradient in the event of an engine failure...

True

If I can't meet the TERPS IFR, I depart VFR (if I can safely do so). If I can't depart VFR, I don't go...

Smart

...I have got into heated talks with guys at Flight Safety about this...

Me too; however, that was then, this is now. In the past, comparative few instructors at the various training centers understood the concepts. Fortunately, the tide is turning and nowadays you are more likely be able to get the straight scoop in performance class.

Do not confuse aircraft takeoff performance certification requirements with TERPS obstacle clearance requirements. They are apples and oranges.

The aircraft performance charts essentially only get you to 1,500' AGL with the loss of one engine. PERIOD. In other words, if you lose an engine on takeoff, the charts will guarantee that you can climb up to pattern altitude from which point you can come back around to the airport and land - nothing more.

The climb profiles on the departure procedures tell you what you have to be able to do to keep your nose out of the dirt. These requirements can (and usually do) extend well beyond 1,500' AGL - well off the takeoff performance charts.

We don't have all engine operating climb charts for our airplanes. The manufacturers aren't required to provide them and normally don't. (I haven't seen a Beechjet AFM.)

Under part 91, there is no requirement to be able to achieve the climb profiles on the departure procedure with an engine out. Under part 121 or 135 you do OR have an alternate procedure. Taking Aspen as the ubberexample, you either have to be able to have enough ceiling and visibility to see and avoid the terrain, or have the engine-out climb capability to out climb it. (Remember though, your takeoff performance charts only get to you 1500' AGL, not 14,000' MSL - in spite of what your perfromance class instructors have told you, you cant extrapolate them beyond 1500' AGL.) or have an alternate departure procedure available to you to use in the event of an emergency - the loss of an engine. The 121 guys at Aspen all use the alternate departure procedure. Ditto for many 91 and 135 operators.

I've said it previously, if I wanted to wreak havoc among the flight crew operating out of the "ski country" airports, I wouldn't ramp check them prior to departure - I'd do it immediately after landing and have them show me their approach climb charts.

LS

 

[Rokit88]

That happens alot in ASE.. If you see 3 heads in the tower, one is an FAA guy watching to see where your going. Beechjet w/5 souls from ASE to CLT? Expect a visit when you land.

 

[LJ45]

That happens alot in ASE.. If you see 3 heads in the tower, one is an FAA guy watching to see where your going. Beechjet w/5 souls from ASE to CLT? Expect a visit when you land.

Is this first hand knowledge or urban myth? Seriously?

 

[Rokit88]

thats straight from the FBO. they say it happens alot.

 

[LJ45]

It was only a matter of time before he showed up...thanks Lead Sled !!!!

LOL

 

[LJ45]

thats straight from the FBO. they say it happens alot.

Sorry, not enough proof for me to be convinced that this actually happens.

 

[Lead Sled]

Personally, I put that in the semi urban myth category. I've been flying in and out of Aspen for 19 years - the last 4 years or so on a very regular basis. I have never seen a Fed lurking around, but I've heard the stories. I don't deny that it has happened, but I've yet to meet anyone who has ever been ramp checked there. At any rate Rokit88 misread my post - if I was a fed and needed a little help reaching my monthly violation quota I wouldn't even bother checking guy just as they are getting ready to leave Aspen. I've get them as they were taxiing in. I'd be comparing their landing wait with the data from their approach climb charts.

Aspen is a interesting airport to operate out of. All landings are normally to the south and all takeoffs are to the north. On busy days it gets pretty "interesting" when they clear you for an immediate takeoff with one airplane well past Red Table inbound and another one on about a 4 mile final. You need to be paying attention and be able to follow directions.

Speaking of Aspen, I've got to run - we're off to Aspen this morning.

LS

 

[Doc Holiday]

but were does it actual say "in case of engine failure"

121.189 and 135.379 both state that the "net takeoff flight path" must clear all obstacles within the airport boundaries by 35 feet vertically or by atleast 200 feet horizontally and by alteast 300 feet horizontally after passing the airport boundaries.

To find the definition of "net takeoff flight path" you need to put 25.111, 25.113, and 25.115 together. 25.111 states the most critical engine is made inoperative at Vef (engine failure speed) and must remain inoperative for the rest of the takeoff (reaching 1500 above the takeoff surface).

The way I understand it, under normal conditions (all engines operating) you must be able to meet the gradients specified in the DP. If you bag an engine, you are no longer required to meet DP requirements but must be able to clear obstacles as stated in 121.189/135.379. The only way I am aware of obtaining information to clear obstacles by the said margins in case of an engine failure is by having a third party perform an airport analysis and develope single engine procedure for your airplane. If you don't have that resource, then the only way to ensure obstacle clearence is to weight restrict yourself to the extent that will allow compliance with the DP on one engine. This may or may not be possible depending on your equipment and the required climb gradients.

Hope this helps.