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CL-601 down in Montrose, CO

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the pics I saw of the plane burning showed it snowing pretty good..no not a blizzard but it certainly looked like the white stuff was falling.

Quick turn or not, even 10 mins. It might be relative, or at least looked into very thoroughly to try and find answers..

It certainly does not have to be snowing hard to de-ice.
 
I used to work for a guy in northern maine that would only let the hanger get to about 30-35 degrees even when we were working in there. Of course it was 40 below outside so at least it was an improvement.

This did two things. It wasn't as hard on the planes for start up but most importantly when the snow fell it wouldn't melt on the plane when we pulled it out for an asap.

Of course rapping your knuckles when it's 30 degrees in a hanger makes it feel like you droped a sledge hammer on them.

We also had an oil dilution switch on our 180 for ski ops. It would inject gas into the oil pan so that the oil wouldn't be so thick on startup. Then would burn off as the oil heated up.
 



MONTROSE, Colo. - The 14-year-old son of NBC Sports chairman Dick Ebersol was presumed dead Monday after a fiery jet crash that killed two crewmen and left the injured executive and another of his sons begging bystanders for help.

The aircraft with six people on board crashed during a snowstorm Sunday while taking off from the airport outside this small town 185 miles southwest of Denver. Federal authorities had no immediate word on the cause of the crash.

Witnesses described a chaotic scene following the crash. Charles Ebersol, the sports executive's 21-year-old son, was screaming for help and saying his brother was still on the plane, according to Doug Percival, a driver at a towing service who was one of the first to arrive.

"Can you please help get him out?'" Ebersol pleaded, according to Percival. The elder Ebersol was sitting on the ground nearby, rocking back and forth.

"You could tell he was in shock. Both of them had been ripped out of their shoes," said Percival.

With light snow falling, crews began picking through the charred pile of twisted metal and a 6-foot-high shard of the fuselage with three gaping, round windows. The two engines lay on the ground nearby near the tail section where they had been mounted.

A backhoe was brought in to help dig through the wreckage, found near a cattle pen in a snow-covered field dotted with knee-high weeds. A white sheet was draped across part of the site as crews wrapped up work for the day.

"It's going to be a while because unfortunately a lot of the wreckage is still covered with snow," said Arnold Scott, the lead investigator for the National Transportation Safety Board.

Ebersol has been head of NBC Sports for nearly 15 years, and is perhaps best known for his love of the Olympics, which are broadcast on the network.

He and his two sons, Charles and Edward, 14, were flying home from California, where the older son's school, Notre Dame, played a football game Saturday against Southern California. Another Ebersol son, 18-year-old Willie, is a freshman at USC.

They flew to Colorado, where they have a home, to drop off Ebersol's wife, Susan Saint James, an actress who starred in the 1980s television series "Kate and Allie." Then, Ebersol and the two sons were headed to drop off Charles at school in South Bend, Ind.

A heavy snowstorm had eased up before the plane prepared to take off, but there was no immediate word if weather was a factor. Steve McLaughlin of MTJ Air Services, which de-ices private planes at the airport, said his company did not de-ice Ebersol's plane before it took off. Airport Manager Scott Brownlee said he did not know whether the plane had been de-iced.

Deputy coroner Matt Eilts said a search had turned up no sign of Edward, a freshman at a Connecticut boarding school.

"We believe at this time that the boy has probably perished within the crash," Eilts said.

Witnesses said it appeared the plane, a CL-602 Challenger, never got off the ground. It ran off the runway and skidded across a two-lane road, punching through fences on either side before bursting into flames.

Percival said he was going to crawl through a hole in the plane to look for survivors but turned around because of billowing smoke. He said leaking jet fuel soon exploded "like Roman candles."

Gary Ellis was teaching Sunday school at a Baptist Church near the airport when he heard a loud "poof."

"It came to a rest, and a moment or two later it exploded into a huge fireball," said Ellis. "It was burning as it came down the runway."

The FAA said the pilot and a flight attendant were killed. The coroner's office identified the victims as Luis Alberto Polanco Espaillat, 50, of the Dominican Republic and Warren T. Richardson III, 36, of Coral Gables, Fla., but did not say which was the pilot.

The co-pilot was hospitalized in Denver, while Dick and Charles Ebersol were hospitalized in Grand Junction. Eilts said the co-pilot was in critical condition.

The plane was registered to Jet Alliance of Millville, N.J. The company offered its condolences but said it had no additional information.


http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?BRD=1994&dept_id=226374&newsid=13457343&PAG=461&rfi=9
 
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Singlecoil said:
Wasn't this a quick-turn? I've seen reports that support that claim. If that is the case, then de-icing or not isn't at all related to what caused this accident. If it wasn't snowing hard at the time, which some reports indicate, then there was no reason to de-ice.


I hope you are kidding.
 
FN FAL said:
Dude, that's the scroll and paste weather for the airport I fly a caravan into all winter long...no shizzle. Add in some 1/4 mile vis and some of this and some of that and you almost have a clone of my whole season. Did you know the ski hills in the town I go to dont need snow making machines?

Unless you got some braking action reports or Notam'd MU stuff and some "hold over" times...this weather in my book is legal for approach and departure...and very much a fact of life for those of us who "fly for a living".

I know that some corporate flight departments have a policy "not to go" when it excedes their chief pilots grundy factor...but I don't see nothing here that would have caused a pilot to crash his plane.

Maybe this time it IS mechanical? Hmmm...FN says it's a mechanical for a change? Wazzup wit dat?

Ok, tough guy, try ground icing.
 
100LL... Again! said:
I think singlecoil was assuming the aircraft landed clean and did a quick turn.

Obviously if it came in all caked up, well...
Even if it were very dry snow, if any amount of it collected on top of the flying surfaces- I would say a de/anti-icing was in order...
 
"You know this is just me talking but I hope this accident was not the result of a company not wanting to pay to have the aircraft deiced."

I no longer work for Jet Alliance but I can tell you that the company never put pressure on its pilots to refuse deice to save money. We were encouraged to be responsible about money (e.g. keep an eye out for the best fuel prices, etc.) but we were never asked to compromise safety for $$.

Gulfstream200: "They were PFT in 1996. I interviewed there."

I interviewed there five years later and got the job. They never asked me to pay for my type -- maybe it was just their way of screening qualified candidates . . .

I spoke to one of their company people yesterday. He confirmed my suspicion -- the only reason that they're asking pilots to PFT now is because too many guys were getting the type and bailing. Once again, "the few ruining it for the many."

Fly safe.
 
P.S. I also confirmed that neither pilot in this incident paid for their type-rating, so I guess we can put the PFT-portion of the thread to bed for now. I was also told by other pilots at Jet Alliance that these men conducted themselves as professional, experienced pilots. I'm not saying that mistakes were not made or that pilot error wasn't involved but we need to be clear here -- this wasn't a case of 2000 hour pilots buying a CL-60 type and getting in over their head.
 
nobody said PFT had anything to do with this plane crashing in Montrose.....except you.

Thanks for clearing it up though.

I bet you feel relieved.

"screening qualified applicants" huh yeah my interview at AIR CASTLE TEB (before they moved) lasted about 3 mins. The loser CP's first few sentences were to the effect of "are you able to finance 20K worth of inital training next month"

"Uh...No Chief Penis I cant, Im looking for a JOB (I need money), not looking to spend 20K" --- guess I didnt make the cut.

I thanked and left and went back to my ratty 135 job....didnt need another one of those.....

Look at thier website, read thier QUALIFICATIONS. Any out that mentions QUALIFICATIONS as "having the ability to finance your own initial" is a dog$hit outfit - no matter how you spin it.

Like I said, only a certain level of aviator feels desperate enough to have to go that route. But hey, gald YOU were not one of the them huh??

Funny, seems nobody at these PFT outfits ever PFT's!? They always were the "exception" or got in "just after they stopped that"....uh, yeah...

:o :rolleyes:

.
 
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All of us know that it is rarely one single thing that causes crashes.

Perhaps the combination of snow on the wings, a slush snow runway, altitude, and temp combined to slow acceleration and lift. He may have tried to about when the aircraft was not responding as well as I believe one report said the aircraft was sliding sideways.
 
goofyleftwich said:
Gulfstream 200.........God's gift to aviation

But Im an athiest.


.

God has sympathy on desperate PFT worms, I dont.

:eek: .
 
Even PROFESSIONAL pilots need to have a sense of fear. I feel as a pro you need to be aware of complacency and fight against temptation to "go below", not to deice, etc. There is enough other problem that can occur that the pilot has no control over then to add to the odds of an accident.
 
Is That Your Final Answer?

Bandit60 said:
There is alot to be said about guys who fly in the north verses those who fly in the south. I fly in the south now and I asked one of our pilots what he would do if he was at an airport where it was snowing. He told me he would get the plane into a heated hangar. I asked him if he was sure thats what he wanted to do. He said yes. I proceeded to explain to him that with a warm airplane being pulled out on to the ramp with it snowing was going to make matters worse with the snow actually freezing instead of just laying on the airplane.

Everyone needs to think about winter operations a little more

BANDIT60 you're my Hero. I hope I can fly with someone like you someday. Dumass.
 
Duderino said:
BANDIT60 you're my Hero. I hope I can fly with someone like you someday. Dumass.
What the hell is your beef? If this is your attitude I'm glad I don't fly with someone like yourself.
 
I understand all the objections to PFT, etc. but I still have a dumb question(s) ---

Two pilots, each with the same basic qualifications and flight time, go to Flight Safety. Each takes an "initial" course in a particular airplane, completes the course, takes a check ride and emerges with a new type rating on his certificate. They attend the course at the same time (same instructor for classroom and sim) and they take the checkride with the same FAA inspector.

One of them (#1) writes a check to FSI for $20K, says goodbye and leaves. The other (#2) gives FSI a voucher from his company for $20K, says goodbye and leaves.

Q-1. Was the course and checkride for pilot #1 different from the course and checkride for pilot #2?

Q-2. Which one is more qualified and a better pilot at the end of the course, Pilot #1 or Pilot #2.

Q-3. One year later, after flying the same airplane for approximately the same number of hours, one of them is involved in a fatal accident. The investigation shows that the probable cause was pilot error. Which one had the accident, pilot #1 or pilot #2?

Q-4. What is the reason for your answer(s)?
 
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olderpilot said:
Even PROFESSIONAL pilots need to have a sense of fear. I feel as a pro you need to be aware of complacency and fight against temptation to "go below", not to deice, etc. There is enough other problem that can occur that the pilot has no control over then to add to the odds of an accident.
AMEN!!!!!
 

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