CJ2 crash @ Santa Monica

[t-bone]

Steep Instrument Approach?????

Yup. ATC likes to clear you for the approach from 5000' inside DARTS (IIRC) and then the MDA is 503' above the airport. That makes for a steep approach if youre not expecting it. If you don't start down at the VDP, it's going go be tough to recover and remain stabilzed. Anyone know the weather reported at the time of their arrival?

 

[gc3059]

I was just trying to figure out why the previous post said only professional pilots should fly into KSMO. KSMO has circling minimums only, no straight in mins or VDP, I would think a professional would know that!

 

[shanes123]

I was just trying to figure out why the previous post said only professional pilots should fly into KSMO. KSMO has circling minimums only, no straight in mins or VDP, I would think a professional would know that!

there options pilots talking..KR told them to just land there dont ask any questions just trust him its ok..

 

[rettofly]

Yup. ATC likes to clear you for the approach from 5000' inside DARTS (IIRC) and then the MDA is 503' above the airport. That makes for a steep approach if youre not expecting it. If you don't start down at the VDP, it's going go be tough to recover and remain stabilzed. Anyone know the weather reported at the time of their arrival?

Had a REPO leg from LAX about 10 years ago in a CE560 in IMC.

ATC was very insistent about keeping the speed up as long as possible.

Kind of memorable, but we managed to get stabilized approach numbers across the fence.

 

[t-bone]

I was just trying to figure out why the previous post said only professional pilots should fly into KSMO. KSMO has circling minimums only, no straight in mins or VDP, I would think a professional would know that!

No reason you can't land straight in if you see the runway 1.7 miles from the threshold (not the MAP) and are in a position to maintain a stabilized approach.

 

[gc3059]

No reason you can't land straight in if you see the runway 1.7 miles from the threshold (not the MAP) and are in a position to maintain a stabilized approach.

What mins are you using?

 

[t-bone]

What mins are you using?

I'm using the circling minimums, and I'm using the height to determine how far from the threshold I need to see the runway to be able to proceed straight in.. Inside that point, it becomes a true circle. If I see the runway prior to that point, then my 'circle' looks straight in. Same with Aspen.

 

[gc3059]

I'm using the circling minimums, and I'm using the height to determine how far from the threshold I need to see the runway to be able to proceed straight in.. Inside that point, it becomes a true circle. If I see the runway prior to that point, then my 'circle' looks straight in. Same with Aspen.

There are two

 

[t-bone]

There are two

With and without CULVE? I'm not sure what you are saying.

 

[gc3059]

No reason you can't land straight in if you see the runway 1.7 miles from the threshold (not the MAP) and are in a position to maintain a stabilized approach.

My point is you cannot use (with CLUVE ) MDA and meet the stabilized approach criteria. 1.7 miles from the end of the runway is 2.5 DME, which is just outside of CULVE. So to shoot this approach straight in you would need to see the runway at 3.9 DME or 3.1 from the end of the runway, otherwise you have to circle.

 

[t-bone]

My point is you cannot use (with CLUVE ) MDA and meet the stabilized approach criteria. 1.7 miles from the end of the runway is 2.5 DME, which is just outside of CULVE. So to shoot this approach straight in you would need to see the runway at 3.9 DME or 3.1 from the end of the runway, otherwise you have to circle.

OK well I can certainly agree with that...there are situations (100% of the ones I've been in) where landing straight-in is an option. Earlier it seemed that you said one could never land straight in simply because it only has circling minimums. In my experience, when the marine layer is that low you aren't going to be going into SMO anyway.

 

[skiandsurf]

That makes no sense..length of runway had nothing to do with it..he went off the side, not the end..it could have been 10,000ft long and outcome probably would have been the same assuming hangar and everything was in the way of his path

Being that the hangar they hit is at the end of the runway, I'd say that runway length (and too much speed) had a lot to do with it.

 

[johnnyride24]

Being that the hangar they hit is at the end of the runway, I'd say that runway length (and too much speed) had a lot to do with it.

And you also forgot to mention how close those hangars are to the runway.

 

[shanes123]

Being that the hangar they hit is at the end of the runway, I'd say that runway length (and too much speed) had a lot to do with it.

There was a eye witness I believe it was the controller that it was a normal landing. It was on the news they interviewed him. Also there's hangars all along the runway and yes they are close to the runway.

 

[johnnyride24]

My point is you cannot use (with CLUVE ) MDA and meet the stabilized approach criteria. 1.7 miles from the end of the runway is 2.5 DME, which is just outside of CULVE. So to shoot this approach straight in you would need to see the runway at 3.9 DME or 3.1 from the end of the runway, otherwise you have to circle.

DING DING DING

you either circle at mins or just say screw it and go to LAX.

CLOSE SMO

 

[skiandsurf]

There was a eye witness I believe it was the controller that it was a normal landing. It was on the news they interviewed him. Also there's hangars all along the runway and yes they are close to the runway.

All these witnesses and experts seem to be useless. You even said he went off the runway at midfield. But that's wrong.

 

[Dingo221]

SMO is doomed to shut down to jet traffic.
Now just imagine if 20% of the SMO traffic is going to go to LAX, we are going to have a lot of fun. LAX is not very good now but increase the general aviation traffic and it is going to become a nightmare.

 

[shanes123]

All these witnesses and experts seem to be useless. You even said he went off the runway at midfield. But that's wrong.

Accidents happen at every airport short runways and long runways..if you can't handle smo go to lax.

 

[Philobedeaux]

Close SMO. No freaking way. I would have to hire a professional limo driver to get me to LAX or VNY so I can fly my jet. You know what a professional driver costs?? They start at like 50,000 a year!!

 

[Skinner]

DING DING DING

you either circle at mins or just say screw it and go to LAX.

CLOSE SMO

DING DING DING... not so fast johnnyride24.

Circling is not allowed on the "Circling" VOR-A approach into SMO. Yup, can't do it AND they won't tell you you can't until you start your circle to land move.

A LOA exist between LAX and SMO that basically does not authorizes the circle to 21 because there MAY be a loss of separation between LAX arrivals/departures and SMO traffic for rnwy 21.

The frustration is that they will not tell you that, either by NOTAM or a friendly head's up from SOCAL or SMO twr...

More Gouge:
Waypoint CULVE is probably NOT in your data base and will not show on the NAV or PFD... descent gradient from CULVE to rnwy 21 too steep!

From CULVE to 50' over the threshold of rnwy 21 requires (Appr. speed of 125 kias) a 5.6 deg. glide down and 1234 fpm rate of descent down... hardly a "stabilized" approch. BTW, there is an offset from CULVE so a lineup correction and corresponding re-correction will be required.

Depending on the Wx at the field... when SOCAL hands you off to SMO twr and you check in with "so & so approaching BEVEY for the VOR 21", you will hear from SMO twr, "So & so you are cleared for the visual, runway 21...". What that really means is that they have assigned you the visual approach, that you did not ask for because you have already been cleared for the VOR-A approach. Translation: you DO NOT HAVE THE MA airspace for the VOR-A approach.... yup.

Also, coming into SMO from the NW over VNY; they will always turn you inside of DARTS at 4500-5000', count on it and plan accordingly! BEVEY is in your face and you will be higher than you want.

Re: MA, forgetabout it... it'll be: "Fly headin 250, climb to 3000, contact SOCAL.

If for some reason your on the VOR-A and the field is less than 1000' and 3 and you see the rnwy... you'll still have go to CULVE at 1120' (and probably loose sight of the runway in the marine layer) and do the acro maneuver to land... I know, ask for the "Contact Approach"... nope, they can't approve it!!

I hate that f'n place because of all the secrets that they don't clue you in on... If you are not familiar with SMO specifics, you will not get "gouge" until you have been in/out of there many times before, unfortunately.