Citation X pay???

[Diesel]

There's no comparison in pay, schedule, time off or any other aspect of QOL.

You're right you can't beat all the time off i have.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

you needed a 100% pay raise to get in the ballpark.

That 40K was not a "christmas bonus" like all your BROTHERS think. It is a taxable slap in the face way of saying "thanks for giving me your a$$ for the last 7 years" from Uncle Warren.

He underpaid you 50K/yr then bought you off at about 6K/yr

"a rising tide lifts all ships" she says.


:laugh: <------ thats Warren.




and yes, if you are happy and feel you have won....well.....YOU HAVE!

 

[LegacyDriver]

Stop comparing yourself to 50K Legacy pilots and commuter trash....."rise that ship" like your wacky a$$ leader keeps saying.

Wow, I knew I was unpopular but to be compared to "commuter trash" pains me.

 

[LegacyDriver]

FYI- I have less time than most of you so it's not like I have a lot of bargaining power. When I went looking for a new job I did some homework, went to 5 different interviews and chose the one with the best QOL. My definition of QOL includes; pay, location, schedule, stability of the dept, co-workers etc. And LegacyDriver, please don't tell us (AGAIN) that you're happy to fly a heavy jet for 50K because you don't work that hard and it's better than what you made flying 121.

Unfortunately, having only one type rating hurts my chances of going places. People weren't (and aren't) beating down my door for $50K a year much less the $90K you claim I'm worth. Everyone I know is in the same boat.

*shrug*

OTOH, when I fly next I will have worked 4 1/2 days out of the last 45. That's MAJOR QOL!!!!!!!!

Is it worth it to make $100K to be on a pager? Not in my book. YMMV, but I prefer bouncing my daughter on my knee for $56K/year to slaving myself away for $100K. (Looking at it another way, if this were a "full-time" job--which in many ways it is *NOT*, especially considering days off--I'd be making $112K a year and be ABOVE NBAA.)

It's not my fault everyone thinks a Legacy pilot is a glorified RJ driver. We're not, but that's the way it is.

 

[501261]

I don't know a single X driver over $75K a year.

WOW.

I'm willing to bet that most of the 750 drivers that you know work for the same management company that is underpaying you!

For the record the only 750 pilot that I personally know, was making $115K in 2000 and threating to quit because he was woefully underpaid. He's still there so I bet he got a bump.

 

[LegacyDriver]

I take that back. I know of a few that make $82K a year in a PURE Part 91 (NOT mixed) flight department. My bad--I brain dumped that. But still FAR FAR below what you guys think they're worth.

So $82K for a X Captain in a pure Part 91 environment. You telling me they're the exception?


Where was your buddy who made $115K a year living? Perhaps that's the difference (he was in NY or CA vs. TX or OK).

 

[501261]

Where was your buddy who made $115K a year living? Perhaps that's the difference (he was in NY or CA vs. TX or OK).

I can't say, it would give his identity away, seriously. But it's not a high cost of living area, and his QOL was excellent.

 

[SCT]

I'm not saying there are not X pilots making 115-120K on the east/ west coast.....but I still think that is on the high end of the salary range. Good for them, though!
Somebody needs to pull out the NBAA survey and settle this "?"

 

[HMR]

OTOH, when I fly next I will have worked 4 1/2 days out of the last 45. That's MAJOR QOL!!!!!!!!

Is it worth it to make $100K to be on a pager? Not in my book. YMMV, but I prefer bouncing my daughter on my knee for $56K/year to slaving myself away for $100K. (Looking at it another way, if this were a "full-time" job--which in many ways it is *NOT*, especially considering days off--I'd be making $112K a year and be ABOVE NBAA.)

LegacyDriver- I thought you flew corporate? You do 135 also? Can we just clarify something once and for all: If you fly 99 PT91 trips and 1 PT135 trip YOU FLY CHARTER! Do you take a PT91 or PT135 checkride at recurrent? If it's PT135, YOU FLY CHARTER! The jobs I was referencing are pure PT91 ops.

Glad your daughter gets to bounce off dad's knee. That's cute. You always say your pay sucks then come back with some rediculous excuse for why it's OK- "Well if it was a full-time job..." (HUH?!). Or, it's better than "slaving myself away for 100K" (double-HUH?!). What are you talking about? I fly a smaller jet make ALOT more money and work ALOT less than you do. Give us a break.

 

[h25b]

Legacy Driver has the same problem we had when I was working at a place with a Saab corporate shuttle. The only industry standard we had to for compensation purposes were the regional airlines. Yeah right... So we were just forced to go with the Hawker 800 numbers. It was like the Saab didn't even exist.

 

[HMR]

There's no comparison in pay, schedule, time off or any other aspect of QOL.

You're right you can't beat all the time off i have.

My stats for 2005:

Number of days flying= 48
RON's= 19
Total Hrs= 144.4 (including 27.8hrs for Hurricane Katrina Relief flying).
Number of days on call= ZERO

FWIW- I know at least 3 other guys locally with the same schedule who make more money than I do.

Does that beat your Frac QOL? If not, can you walk my resume in?

 

[SCT]

HMR,

Ride that wave while it lasts..

 

[Diesel]

48 days in a year.

got me beat by a long shot and i've spent a lot of time on fmla.

Actually i have a friend that i know. His last flight was october of 2004. Makes 66k jus to sit at home and relax. pretty wild.

 

[HMR]

HMR,

Ride that wave while it lasts..

Thanks. If this job's a "wave", it's lined up more like Rincon or J-Bay than Pipeline.

 

[some_dude]

To be fair to LegacyDriver, I, too, have taken less money in order to have a job where I work less. In fact, that's my preferred situation.

Not having to work too much and being able to live where I want is worth some money to me.

 

[Diesel]

I gotta say HMR i was thinking about your no show job and gotta ask. Do you really think there is long term investment in it? Do you really feel that the job will be there in a couple of months or even years. Will you have to go find another job in a year or so and move on?

I'm just asking the unstabiliity of it would drive me nuts. How do you do it? That's part of my reason for working at a frac because it's stable and i know the boss can't sell the plane and i'm gone tomorrow. It's happened many many times.

I look forward to hearing how you do it.

 

[SheGaveMeClap]

Boy, for a simple question about C-X pay, this turned into a bragging session by some folks who must have small units in one he!!uva hurry. Pretty sad. Entertaining, but sad.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Unfortunately, having only one type rating hurts my chances of going places. People weren't (and aren't) beating down my door for $50K a year much less the $90K you claim I'm worth. Everyone I know is in the same boat.

*shrug*

OTOH, when I fly next I will have worked 4 1/2 days out of the last 45. That's MAJOR QOL!!!!!!!!

Is it worth it to make $100K to be on a pager? Not in my book. YMMV, but I prefer bouncing my daughter on my knee for $56K/year to slaving myself away for $100K. (Looking at it another way, if this were a "full-time" job--which in many ways it is *NOT*, especially considering days off--I'd be making $112K a year and be ABOVE NBAA.)

It's not my fault everyone thinks a Legacy pilot is a glorified RJ driver. We're not, but that's the way it is.

Your boss is a lucky guy, Legacydriver.

You are a true professional at talking yourself out of much worth.

Not too many corp pilots I know SLAVE for 100K, most make more than that and have that same great QOL you have/seek.

QOL is no substitute for fair pay, stop thinking that way for christ sakes..

 

[Lead Sled]

I gotta say HMR i was thinking about your no show job and gotta ask. Do you really think there is long term investment in it? Do you really feel that the job will be there in a couple of months or even years. Will you have to go find another job in a year or so and move on?

I'm just asking the unstabiliity of it would drive me nuts. How do you do it? That's part of my reason for working at a frac because it's stable and i know the boss can't sell the plane and i'm gone tomorrow. It's happened many many times.

I look forward to hearing how you do it.

FWIW, HMR works for a family with "old" money. His boss is in his 40's and tried the fractionals ("They all made me nervious."), bought his own personal airplane 3 years ago and is now preparing to step up to a Falcon 50 within the next couple of months. The extended family also owns aircraft - up to an including G-IVs.

Could this all evaporate with in the next few days, weeks, months, years, or decades? Yes, of course it could - just like ANY job could go away. (If you don't believe that I got a few senior TWA captains that you can talk to.) Is it likely to? Doubtful and if it does, he could always take one of the near $100K/yr charter jobs that always seem to be floating around SOCAL. If his boss was in his 80's and breathing from an oxygen bottle I might recommend that he start mailing out resumes, but he's not. Personally, if I were HMR, I wouldn't be losing any sleep. His job is not all that unusual around here - like he said, I know several very secure positions whose crews have basically the same schedule and make even more $$$. Gigs like his aren't under every rock, but they're worth their weight in gold when you can find them.

'Sled

 

[Lead Sled]

Your boss is a lucky guy, Legacydriver.

You are a true professional at talking yourself out of much worth.

Not too many corp pilots I know SLAVE for 100K, most make more than that and have that same great QOL you have/seek.

QOL is no substitute for fair pay, stop thinking that way for christ sakes..

Well said. Most pilots are their own worst enemy.

'Sled

 

[152SIC]

I have been working as a Citation X captain at 70,000 a year. Appx 1000 hours in type, and I fly other aircraft for the company as a captain as well.

We fly appx. 192 days a year, are subject to 20 days work a month and do appx 168 RONs.

No vacation (was taken away from us about a year ago,) and no other benifits to speak of. I wish I knew where these jobs are I keep hearing about!

 

[some_dude]

Sorry, G200, but that is NOT true. QOL IS a substitute for pay.

Some people are fortunate and find jobs with a great schedule, great pay, in a place where they want to live. You, presumably, are one of those guys.

Most of us, though, have to give on at least one of those three points.

Taking a job for less money because it has a good schedule and lets you live where you want is an entirely rational decision for many people.

Of course, if you do that, don't come on here and whine that you are underpaid!

QOL is no substitute for fair pay, stop thinking that way for christ sakes..

 

[SheGaveMeClap]

Your boss is a lucky guy, Legacydriver.

QOL is no substitute for fair pay, stop thinking that way for christ sakes..

I think this is a pretty harsh statement. It's true to a point, but in other cases it isn't.

Do you live in a large metropolitan area where there alot of large corporate flight departments based? Or do you live in a smaller town/city where the flying jobs are very limited?

I know guys (myself included) that have taken jobs that won't make them rich, but the QOL is fantastic. It's all in what's important to that individual.

In my part of the world, we have three Part 91 operations in the area. I was offered a job with one of them and took it in a heartbeat. My family is comfortable, I'm home alot to spend time with them, and I'm living exactly where I want. What more do you need?

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Oh I agree guys...especially if it works for you. Me personally -- family and QOL comes over pay anyday. I have had more than one job offer recently at 20-30K more but its not worth it to me either. I do make a pretty fair wage and have excellent QOL. My family likes it, therefore I like it.

I just get ill when I hear someone flying a large aircraft as a PIC for 50K and then saying the QOL makes it worth it.

Thats simply stupid.

Theres "fair" pay as it relates to QOL and then there's "Im takin it in the a$$ because I'm dumb" pay. That group is an embarassment to the industry.

but again, whatever works for you....but if it was me, I certainly wouldnt be justifying it with the QOL excuse. MANY jobs offer good QOL and good pay.

 

[SheGaveMeClap]

Oh I agree guys...especially if it works for you. Me personally -- family and QOL comes over pay anyday. I have had more than one job offer recently at 20-30K more but its not worth it to me either. I do make a pretty fair wage and have excellent QOL. My family likes it, therefore I like it.

I just get ill when I hear someone flying a large aircraft as a PIC for 50K and then saying the QOL makes it worth it.

Thats simply stupid.

Theres "fair" pay as it relates to QOL and then there's "Im takin it in the a$$ because I'm dumb" pay. That group is an embarassment to the industry.

but again, whatever works for you....but if it was me, I certainly wouldnt be justifying it with the QOL excuse. MANY jobs offer good QOL and good pay.

That's a good statement. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Lead Sled]

QOL IS a substitute for pay.

Oh I agree guys...especially if it works for you. Me personally --family and QOL comes over pay anyday...Theres "fair" pay as it relates to QOL and then there's "Im takin it in the a$$ because I'm dumb" pay. That group is an embarassment to the industry.

There's only one group of pilots that irratate me more than Gulfstream's "dumb" group - that's those retired military and airline guys that come up to owners and chief pilots and say that since they have a nice retirement they can afford to work for next to nothing. As far as I'm concerned, the guys who do that are giving thier employers exactly what they're paying for.

One thing I've noticed over the years is that operators who "low-ball" pilots often low-ball other things...like maintenance. One of the indicators of a quality operation is compensation. Never forget that.

'Sled

 

[rice]

There's only one group of pilots that irratate me more than Gulfstream's "dumb" group - that's those retired military and airline guys that come up to owners and chief pilots and say that since they have a nice retirement they can afford to work for next to nothing. As far as I'm concerned, the guys who do that are giving thier employers exactly what they're paying for.

One thing I've noticed over the years is that operators who "low-ball" pilots often low-ball other things...like maintenance. One of the indicators of a quality operation is compensation. Never forget that.

'Sled

I just heard a story about a (retired/LOA) UAL guy who took a job flying a Challenger 300 in the Rockies for $75k/yr. Not good but not to bad. Then the other shoe drops. The second guy is in the $55k range, they MUST share a room on the road, meals are $10, $10, and $20, use it or lose it and you can't apply one to the other. Guys like this should be taken out back and blanketed 'till all movement stops!!!!! Then some one should get a hold a "Mr. Rich" and slap him upside the head just for good measure. Personally I wish I could've had the opportunity to interview for the job just so I could have the satisfaction of laughing my A$$ off right to his face.

 

[HMR]

I gotta say HMR i was thinking about your no show job and gotta ask. Do you really think there is long term investment in it? Do you really feel that the job will be there in a couple of months or even years. Will you have to go find another job in a year or so and move on?

I'm just asking the unstabiliity of it would drive me nuts. How do you do it? That's part of my reason for working at a frac because it's stable and i know the boss can't sell the plane and i'm gone tomorrow. It's happened many many times.

I look forward to hearing how you do it.

How do I do it? Not sure what you mean. Hopefully, LeadSled's post shed some light on the situation. Have you seriously never heard of jobs like mine? Like Sled said, there are a couple well established dept's in my neighborhood that fly a similar schedule in bigger equipment and make bigger $$$$. Then there are several other GREAT PT91 dept's that fly a little more but still enjoy an amazing QOL.

An old highschool buddy of mine has been flying for one of these SoCal family Dept's for close to 10 years. I've known about these jobs since before I took my first flying lesson. My career goal has always been to fly for a family. I'm very thankful for my job but my level of QOL is not unique. BTW- I didn't know anyone in this dept before I got the job. I found it right here on FlightInfo.

Diesel- If you have any more questions, I'll be happy to answer.

 

[HMR]

Paging LegacyDriver...

One of the indicators of a quality operation is compensation. Never forget that.

GOOD GRIEF! Do you know how much bandwith we could've saved if you would've said that earlier?

I'm making that my new signature.

 

[some_dude]

There's only one group of pilots that irratate me more than Gulfstream's "dumb" group - that's those retired military and airline guys that come up to owners and chief pilots and say that since they have a nice retirement they can afford to work for next to nothing. As far as I'm concerned, the guys who do that are giving thier employers exactly what they're paying for.

I couldn't agree more with this.

One thing I've noticed over the years is that operators who "low-ball" pilots often low-ball other things...like maintenance. One of the indicators of a quality operation is compensation. Never forget that.

While this is often true (and it's probably always true in the case of the real low-ballers, especially the low-ball 135 operators), it certainly is not always true. I have worked for a couple of operators who pay at the low end of the range and yet had no hesitation about spending money on maintenance.

For that matter, I have seen the opposite as well, where an operation pays reasonably well and yet skimps on maintenance. That is usually due to the chief pilot.