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Cincy Enquirer: Comair Wants to Cut Pay

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Treme

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 23, 2003
Posts
137
Cincinnati Enquirer - 10/04
Pilots, attendants asked to reopen contracts

By James Pilcher
The Cincinnati Enquirer


Erlanger-based regional airline Comair wants its pilot and flight attendant unions to reopen their contracts to negotiate pay cuts, company and union officials have confirmed.

The requests come nearly 21/2 years after the carrier's pilots held an 89-day strike, one of the longest walkouts in recent airline history, which resulted in a contract that made Comair's pilots the highest-paid in the regional-airline industry.

The request comes as officials for the wholly owned subsidiary of Delta Air Lines acknowledge Comair is "modestly" profitable. Delta, however, has lost more than $2 billion since the bottom dropped out of the industry after the Sept. 11 attacks, and is expected to announce another big quarterly loss later this month.

Neither Comair's 1,800-member pilot union nor its 950-member flight attendant union has decided whether to hold the talks, representatives from both said. Each membership will listen to Comair's initial pitch and then vote on to whether to open up their contracts.

On Friday, company president and chief executive officer Randy Rademacher wrote the company's employees, saying that Comair needed to reduce its costs to remain competitive

The memo, obtained by the Enquirer, said Comair was hoping to secure several new 70-seat aircraft in the next few months.

Comair will be in competition for those planes with several other airlines in the Delta regional network. The planes also could go to new, lower-cost airlines that could be added to that network.

Comair also is trying to finalize delivery of other jets currently on order but not confirmed for next year and even take some other flights away from less efficient carriers. These possibilities could mean a 50 percent expansion in the airline's capacity, the memo said.

"We are responding to an opportunity that we have to further the growth and opportunity for our future," said Comair spokesman Nick Miller.

"Delta has a number of choices for its regional jet flying and Comair wants to make sure that we are the choice. That would be good for our employees, our company and the region as a whole."

Targets unknown

Delta officials would not comment, referring all questions to Comair.

Miller would not say if the company had set a target amount to be cut in either contract, nor would he set a deadline as to when Comair officials hoped to complete negotiations. But the memo said that the decision on the new planes would be made within a month.

Senior Comair regional jet pilots can earn as much as $100,000 annually if they fly 70-seat regional jets, or $95,000 for 50-seaters. A first-year pilot makes $23,000 annually.

The flight attendants signed a five-year contract in July 2002 that called for raises of 44 to 66 percent over the life of the pact or an average of about eight to 10 percent a year.

A first-year flight attendant now makes just under $19,500 annually, while a senior flight attendant averages just under $45,000 a year.

Comair's branch of the Air Line Pilots Association has scheduled a meeting with its members for Thursday. The union and the company have made strong efforts to heal the wounds opened during the spring 2001 strike.

Delta also has asked its mainline pilots to take a pay cut. They are the highest-paid in the domestic airline industry. But that union rejected the company's request to reopen the contract unless several key points were made, and no new efforts have been forthcoming from Delta management.

The vice chairman of Comair's pilot union, Cory Tennen, a Cincinnati-based regional jet captain, said the company has not made a specific proposal and that the union still has to do its own analysis of the situation before agreeing to talks.

That would include acquiring specific financial data from the company, Tennen said. That requirement was also made by the flight attendants, according to union trustee Ken Barnes of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters.

Union wants details

During the strike, which cost Delta and Comair an estimated $750 million in lost revenue and costs, Comair repeatedly refused to provide such data.

"We are still looking at it and we have to do our own analysis," said Tennen, who led negotiations during the strike. "This time, the money they are or aren't making is a lot more relevant so we need to see that on paper."

Miller said the company was working with the union on the request, but would not provide specifics, only to say that Comair is "modestly" profitable. During the strike, Comair repeatedly said that its financial results were reflected in the overall results released by parent Delta and would not provide specifics.

"This is not about Comair losing money, it's about Delta holding this over their head and saying if they want to continue to grow, they have to cut costs among the workgroups," Barnes said. "But we'll wait and see what the flight attendants want to do."
 
THEY CAN KISS MY ASS! THE STATUS QUO IS FINE WITH US. THEY CAN SEND THOSE AIRPLANES TO THE WHORES OF SKYWEST, NO PROBLEMO, BUT WE WILL NOT BEND OVER LIKE THEY DID.

AND YES, SKYW WAS THE AIRLINE WE WERE TOLD WHO WOULD GET THE PLANES IF WE DON'T BEND OVER. I IMAGINE THOSE WHORES ARE ALL LICKING THEIR COLLECTIVE CHOPS FOR AN OPPORTUNITY TO FLY 70 SEATERS FOR 50 SEAT PAY. WHAT A BUNCH OF IDIOTS.
 
AFELLOWAVIATOR, why do you refer to the SkyWest pilots as "whores"?

It just makes good business sense for DAL to farm out RJ flying to the least costly option, since it is not protected by any scope language. "Whore" can be a relative term. Why do you think you are flying any DCI flying to begin with? Could it be because you are willing to do it for far less then DAL pilots? I don't think throwing around terms like "whore" will be beneficial in the long run. If the CMR pilots want to secure some DCI flying they ought to be working with the DAL pilots on a flow through agreement that would put DCI flying under the DAL PWA scope clause. You might have to take a pay cut and backwards seat movement in exchange for the flow through and scope protections, but it's all for the best in the long run.
 
Darn right! They can kiss my ass too!!! I remember when this company was hauling in record profits and I sure dont remember them ever offering us a raise. I remember three years and 89days without any sort of raise! A contract is a contract....see you guys in 2006!!!!
 
I wouldnt be surprised if the senior management types take a bonous down the road if they can get the pilots, FA , Mechanics groups to take cuts..that saves the airline money which in return looks good for managament which means t hey make thier quota and get an added bonous.. I agree i would rahter be furloughed agian then take a pay cut that will then pay me less than a mcdonalds employee.
 
Keep an eye on a DL purchase of the ACA CRJ's. They could start a new wholly owned regional, and put some of their furloughed pilots back to work. They love pitting one group against another.

I don't think ACA would sell them all, but they may sell 60. I think they need the EMB a/c to reduce CASM for the short haul routes.
 
Whores huh?\

Are you just bitter cause your still paying for your training? I think you need to take some anger management classes Mr/Ms AFELLOWAVIATOR because you sound a little to upset at SKYW for this.

Get over it, besides if we are such "whores" then why are you guys getting more growth at SLC than us. Grow up please.
 
Stay away from A flow through. Take this advice from all Eagle pilots. you give them 1 flowback seat they will want 1000. Its never ending what they can dream up of, to help there pilots out. Eagle had 140 pilots get to AA and it should of been around 500min. As giving SKW those AC, I belive they already know were they are going. They just want to scare you into giving back what they lost in the strike.
 
Jeep, what you people did was disgusting, period. Is this not the reason you agreed to whore your 70 seat flying out and take pay cuts? So you could get more flying?

MESA/SKYWEST Whats the difference? I am done with you, makes my stomach sick to even converse with you people on this board.
 
You know it is almost laughable that every management team tries to play the SAME game with the pilot groups. Unfortunately some of us, like the before mentioned Skywest, jump to go grab the carrot offered. I don't believe a pilot group that sat out 89 days is at all interested in giving up gains made, when the company is profitable. This pilot group actually has respect for the work it does everyday.

Seems some of us are lining up for 70 seaters regardless of pay, because it means growth. Then these people think they will upgrade and get to a major real soon. Well moron, 70 seaters are REALLY mainline equipment (see NW DC-9's or AA F-100's), so what major jobs are you going to exactly since all the frickin' jobs are drying up. Southwest and JB are only going to hire so many. Hey at least you get to fly a 70 seat jet, right!?! Comair guys I almost feel that I don't have to say it, but tell management to go to heaven and take a U-Turn.
 
if there are carriers/pilots that want to fly for free thats their problem.. we are already overworkedand underpaid... gone are the days of selling yourself out for a few years to build that PIC time and move on to a real job.. i have a real job.. and im not about to join the race to the bottom.. delta can take their concessionary carrot and go shove it up some other willing carriers a55.
 
FDJ2 said:
It just makes good business sense for DAL to farm out RJ flying to the least costly option, since it is not protected by any scope language.

Based on your own analysis, it would be equally "good business sense" for DAL to farm out mainline flying to its codeshare partner CAL, since Delta pilots' pay for the same work is almost 50% higher than CAL pay. Or maybe they should subcontract it to Spirit, an even less costly option. Oh yes, its "protected by scope", just like you were protected by your no furlough clause. Your pension is also protected by your PWA, isn't it? Just like the AAA pension was protected by their PWA. You've seen how long that lasted haven't you? You've also seen what happened to the UAL PWA and to the AA PWA or haven't you?

I hate to remind you of this, but it is not our compensation package that is a drain on the company's exchequer, it is yours. If and when YOU are willing to make concessions, that would be the time for us to consider concessions. I'll tell you what you tell us .... there is no reason for us to make concessions unless YOU are willing to make them first. Does that shoe fit?

Why do you think you are flying any DCI flying to begin with? Could it be because you are willing to do it for far less then DAL pilots?

Yes, it could be, but it isn't. It could also be because your airtight scope didn't protect the Delta pilots from that. It could be that when you were high and mighty you didn't want that flying so you sold it for some "pieces of eight". Why don't you offer to do it for less than Mesa. Maybe you could buy it all back if you did? Think of the "growth" that would give you. It's way to late to shift the blame for whay you all didn't do, to us. Stop trying. Together with ASA our pilot group is more than 30% of the Company. YOU all let that Genie out of the bottle and there is no way to put it back now.

If the CMR pilots want to secure some DCI flying they ought to be working with the DAL pilots on a flow through agreement that would put DCI flying under the DAL PWA scope clause. You might have to take a pay cut and backwards seat movement in exchange for the flow through and scope protections, but it's all for the best in the long run.

That's a good idea ... for the Delta pilots. You would like us to "secure DCI flying" by making a flow through agreement with the Delta pilots that would put DCI flying under the DAL PWA scope clause. Is that so we can "secure DCI flying" for transfer to the furloughed Delta pilots? Isn't that what you really want?

Sounds to me like you are saying that we should take a pay cut so that we can prevent our flying from going to CHQ and SKYW by making certain that it goes to the Delta pilots instead?. That's really "big" of you man. I can feel the love.

You know what, I have a better idea. The company has a new subsidiary called Song. I think it would be a good idea if the Company were to transfer all its narrow body flying to Song and then sign a new and separate contract with Song that pays Song pilots less than JBlue and AirTran pilots. You would still get the flying of course, but you would save the Company an easy billion dollars or so per year and then you might have "growth", and you still would not have to fly RJs. Wouldn't that be great? You say you'll never agree to that?

Think it can't happen because of your scope? Well get ready my friend. Song is a "separate subsidiary", just like Comair and ASA. A separate company. Your company has created another alter ego in your tent. The camel's nose is not under the tent buddy, it's the whole dam*ed camel, and he is already inside the tent! Your tent. The day is coming when that "separate company" will have a "separate contract", and when it does you will have "separate work rules" and "separate pay scales", just as you did originally with Delta Express, but this time it wont be a "contract within a contract". When that time comes and the company turns on the screws, we shall see what concessions YOU are willing to make for "promises" and "growth", and to keep that from happening.

If you want the flying that Comair or DCI or whatever you want to call it does today, then all you have to do is make enough concessions in your PWA to get it. You could offer the company 10% less than Mesa pay rates with their work rules. That would be a good deal to get their "promise of growth" and secure the DCI flying for yourselves, don't you think?

Face it my friend, times are changing. Today Comair management is offering a veiled "promise of future growth" in exchange for concessions from Comair employees (who are really Delta employees but have to pretend that they're not). That's wonderful, but there is just one problem. Comair does not control DCI growth or DCI flying and has no power to honor its "promises" to Comair pilots or FA's, veiled or otherwise. That power is vested exclusively in Delta. And no, I don't mean the Delta pilots or the DMEC, Delta, Inc.

It looks to me like our management took a page from the Delta MEC's playbook. It has come to us with an "offer" of something that it doesn't own, can't control, and can't deliver. In other words a bogus offer of nothing, much like the offer of preferrential hiring made by the DMEC, In exchange for this offer of nothing, we should make major concessions so that Comair can be more competitive __ with other Delta-controlled companies. Sure.

If Delta wants concessions from Comair employees, then Delta should come to the bargaining table itself and make an offer that it can actually deliver on. Negotiating with a powerless proxy like Comair management which can't deliver anything is a total waste of time.

I'll bet our MEC would be more than willing to negotiate with Delta management. We might not get what we want and they might not get what they want, but at least we would be talking to someone who has the power to make a decision one way or the other.

Instead, you would like us to make a deal with the Delta MEC, and give YOU control of our flying so that you can "help" us. You guys are incredible. I can see that you think we are idiots but guess what, we think we are just as bright as you are. One of us is obviously wrong.
 
Surplus, you obviously don't have a clue on how the DAL/NWA/CAL code share is structured, since that is not the topic at hand and I haven't the inclination, I won't waste anytime educating you on it. I can same the same about your lack of knowledge over scope issues, furloughs, Song and force majuere.

The CMR pilots have choice to make, either make concessions, or watch their airline get smaller as future RJs and possibly existing aircraft go to less costly providers of small jet lift. Without scope over a single hour of DCI flying, there really isn't much they can do about it. Considering the fact that the CMR pilots are the biggest proponent of the elimination of scope, I find it ironic.

At the end of the day the CMR pilots will concede or shrink because none of the flying they do has any contractual protections, which I guess is what they wanted in the first place.
 
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Just out of curiosity.

Since when is SkyWest getting more aircraft for Delta operations? Since when have SkyWest pilots become whores? Do some research on the TA vote. Get your facts straight. And by the way, check with your MEC about SkyWest pilots donating their vacation and user hours to Comair pilots during the strike.
 
Originally posted by FDJ2

The CMR pilots have choice to make, either make concessions, or watch their airline get smaller as future RJs and possibly existing aircraft go to less costly providers of small jet lift. Without scope over a single hour of DCI flying, there really isn't much they can do about it. Considering the fact that the CMR pilots are the biggest proponent of the elimination of scope, I find it ironic.

At the end of the day the CMR pilots will concede or shrink because none of the flying they do has any contractual protections, which I guess is what they wanted in the first place.

Too speculative. You can do better than that. Just posting to rub someone's nose in it?

As surplus pointed out (to me, none-the-less) in a prior thread, CMR management is essentially the puppet here, doing what the master says to do.

Shrink? I don't think so. Go back and read the article. Comair is "modestly" profitable. Delta is not. The only way to get DAL on the side of profitability is for the mainline to get in the black. The regionals are already there.

So, if the mainline pilots continue to hold scope over the regionals' heads, no further growth in capacity will occur at the regionals. So, who, exactly, cares less about the company? Comair pilots, that don't want to give up their salaries - who actually care about their junior pilots, and won't conscribe them to first year wages throughout their second year - or mainline pilots, like yourself? You are actually on the side of management here? You want concessions? How many regional pilots wanted mainline pilots to take concessions? They've asked once, and they'll be knocking on your door next. And where was the mention of how mgmt is contributing to the airline's expansion?

Surplus is dyed-in-the-wool Comair. Don't knock him for that.
 
Re: Just out of curiosity.

fr8Commando said:
Since when is SkyWest getting more aircraft for Delta operations? Since when have SkyWest pilots become whores? Do some research on the TA vote. Get your facts straight. And by the way, check with your MEC about SkyWest pilots donating their vacation and user hours to Comair pilots during the strike.


TA? I did not realize you were a unionized pilot group.

A whore is a whore is a whore.
 
what costs less, if a man needs his lawn mowed, is it cheeper for him to have his son do it or to hire someone for $50 an hour to do it???? How can it be cheeper for a company to hire out???? Doesn't it make sense to have family do the work? It keeps the profit inhouse and doesn't cost anything....just a few thoughts....\

Oh, PS.....delta has a master plan, and if anyone thinks that any decision we make at Comair will effect the future of where the RJ's go is wrong........just think how it would hurt the companies currently in negotiations if Comair bent over......hmmm.....now isn't that special.....

PSS....does anyone actually believe that in 5 years there will be outsourcing of the the flying to companies like Skywest, ACA, etc......get real, from a business standpoint....ASA/Comair takes all the flying nation wide......just as soon as the growth can do it...why do you think their growing so much....HMMMM...food for thought.....hmm, why did Delta sale all of the Skywest stock they owned????
 
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Pez D. Spencer said:
So, if the mainline pilots continue to hold scope over the regionals' heads, no further growth in capacity will occur at the regionals. So, who, exactly, cares less about the company? Comair pilots, that don't want to give up their salaries - who actually care about their junior pilots, and won't conscribe them to first year wages throughout their second year - or mainline pilots, like yourself? You are actually on the side of management here? You want concessions? How many regional pilots wanted mainline pilots to take concessions? They've asked once, and they'll be knocking on your door next. And where was the mention of how mgmt is contributing to the airline's expansion?

Surplus is dyed-in-the-wool Comair. Don't knock him for that.

How are the mainline pilots holding scope over the heads of the regionals? Are you seriously suggesting that the answer to CMR's lack of scope is to eliminate mainline scope? YGTBSM.

I'm not sure what you mean by who cares less about the company. Are you talking about DAL or CMR? Because I could less about CMR. CMR is nothing more than one of many vendors bidding to supply mainline feed. CMR could easily be replaced because they don't have scope over a single hour of DAL code. They never had any and they still don't. It just isn't their flying to begin with. Do I want CMR to take concessions? The short answer is NO. Will management come knocking on our door again, probably, but they won't have nearly the leverage that is being held over the CMR pilots. While I hope that the CMR pilots stick together and take the pain in order to preserve their contract, I'm afraid they'll probably eventually concede when they see that the last order of RJs might go elsewhere.

At any rate, the CMR pilots seem to like not having scope. Tthey would never want to exercise that type of control over outsourcing, so I guess they would never want to limit a SKYWEST's pilots career by preventing them from under bidding CMR for the jets. I guess this is the RJDC dream come true.
 
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First of all, does anyone think for a second that Comair pilots will give up $8 million a year in pay/work rules so that we MIGHT get more jets??? From our management, which doesn't have the power to decide where those jets go? Yeah, like I trust anything from management. But then our prez was nice enough to point out that admin wages had been frozen (Gasp!), while at the same time he's asking for a pay cut from us.

oh yeah, so we're getting used to hearing about how we need these cuts to make us more competitive, and yet the company is spend money on putting those fancy flat-screen TV's at every gate? aren't those suckers about $9,000 each?

and as for the $8 mil, and this isn't a swipe at mainline pilots, but doesn't DAL lose that much every few days?
 

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