Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
- Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
- Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
- Share the passion for aviation
- Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun
Chick Fighter Pilots...
- Thread starter JungleJett
- Start date
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
- Invite your friends
- Share the passion of aviation
- Friendliest aviation community on the web
Lazy8
Registered Parrot Head
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2004
- Posts
- 789
bearcat said:
Speaking of which...
All this "Equity is still an Issue" crap always puts a bitter taste in my mouth. Nothing makes me more angry than hearing a woman complain about how it's harder for her to make it in a 'man's industry'. Bullcrap. If you aren't making it, it's your own fault. If you want to become a professional grow up and stop crying.
g
Oh-ryan
Occasional User
- Joined
- May 13, 2004
- Posts
- 534
JungleJett
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2004
- Posts
- 1,111
otto feather
Active member
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2005
- Posts
- 34
Deuce130
Durka Durka Jihad!
- Joined
- Jun 9, 2005
- Posts
- 1,237
Lear Wanna Be
Presidentin' is hard
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2006
- Posts
- 599
Your nickname says it all!!!
Lear Wanna Be
Presidentin' is hard
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2006
- Posts
- 599
I will use this as a tribute to the first Navy female combat pilot, Lt. Kara Hultgreen. I first met her at NAS Key West in 1993 while she was attached to VAQ-33. I then met her again at NAS Miramar while she was at the F-14 RAG (VF-124). I just happened to be on the USS Constellation when Kara got her night traps in and became fully qualified. It was her second attempt and she took some heat for that. The Navy took crap for trying to push her through the program just because they wanted a covergirl. Well Kara was certainly beautiful, statuesque, out going, and charming....thus her callsign "Revlon", but she was also well qualified to fly tactical aircraft. She was well respected within the squadron and was consider an above average pilot despite only having been there for about 8 months before her accident. She showed her abilities one last time when she managed to steer her single engine under powered F-14A away from the USS Lincoln just moments before she was killed. Amazingly enough her RIO was fished out of the Pacific in good condition.
So I for one have no problem with female fighter pilots.
So I for one have no problem with female fighter pilots.
Last edited:
FlyingSkip
Generalissimo
- Joined
- Aug 22, 2002
- Posts
- 167
Not so much in the "fighter pilot" vein but to second what I took from Lear's post above---I knew several, nay MORE than several female Marines that I would much rather have had beside me when the bullets were flying and the bad guys were coming over the hill than some of their male counterparts. It's all about the ability to do the job, not the plumbing. And since I married one of those female Marines I guess I figured she could do a ew different jobs well!
Mud Eagle
Aviator
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2001
- Posts
- 516
What?! That's an interesting bit of revisionist history.
The thing rolled left naturally due to the asymmetric thrust, probably IN SPITE of the front seater's stick inputs.
http://www.patricksaviation.com/videos/Starfighter/840/
Occam's Razor
Risible...ALWAYS risible
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2005
- Posts
- 2,551
Coming soon:
GFPA - "Gay Fighter Pilots Association" (Motto: "No no!...Let Me check your six!")
LIFPA - "Lactose Intolerant Fighter Pilots Association" (Motto: "Knock-it-off! My guts are rumbling again!")
SCFPA - "Small Crank Fighter Pilots Association" (Motto: "Whaddya know! I'm in the Air Force too!")
Others?
GFPA - "Gay Fighter Pilots Association" (Motto: "No no!...Let Me check your six!")
LIFPA - "Lactose Intolerant Fighter Pilots Association" (Motto: "Knock-it-off! My guts are rumbling again!")
SCFPA - "Small Crank Fighter Pilots Association" (Motto: "Whaddya know! I'm in the Air Force too!")
Others?
Rez O. Lewshun
Save the Profession
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2004
- Posts
- 13,422
Gofish
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2005
- Posts
- 329
Deuce130
Durka Durka Jihad!
- Joined
- Jun 9, 2005
- Posts
- 1,237
Wow - I've heard of pe*is envy before, but never va*ina envy.
I'll call you out. Did you check out these chicks while on autopilot from the boomer's window? I know, respect, and like some of these chicks...not so much for some others. Same with dudes. However, your statements and defensiveness are a little odd. I'll say "vagina" envy, too, Potsy.
Lear Wanna Be
Presidentin' is hard
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2006
- Posts
- 599
Obviously you did not watch the video too well. The first shot is from the camera mounted in the deck. She was not on glide path or centerline in the shot. This was because she was in a shallow bank to the left steering away from the ship, not an uncontrolled roll...(by clearing the ship to the port side, the boat will naturally move away from the aircraft's flight path and you don't have to worry about the island). The aircraft does not depart until the RIO initiates the ejection. He stated that he pulled the center ejection handle as the aircraft started to roll and was below the deck. If Kara had departed while on centerline the aircraft would have either rolled short of the boat or on top of the flight deck. As it was the aircraft hit the water about 200 yards aft and off the port side.
Her record speaks for itself.....she was a nugget just 2 months out of the RAG and was well qualified to be an Tomcat driver. Mistakes were made and mostly they were a result of deficient training. The MIR states 4 negative conclusions as far as her actions on that day. 3 of which had nothing to do with the accident, only the late ejection. The other factor gave conclusion to why they had a compressor stall. This was based on the LSO and the Boss's eyewitness observations. Those observations are challenged in the fact that whether or not an LSO could actually see a Tomcat at 14 degrees AOA and 3/4 of a mile yawing to the left to compensate for an overshoot. Most in the know seem to think that you could not unless full left rudder would have been used, which was not. The MIR also reports several discrepancies with the aircraft, however they were all within limits to fly. In addition, when the left engine was salvaged and inspected, it was basically found to be beyond all limits, not a result of the mishap, for return to service. Also, HOTs were done at 750 hours on the TF-30 with out exception, but most were done at 600 hours. The left engine was over 600 hours at the time of the mishap. Several other problems had been noted including a 5 second delay for the AB to stage. That in itself was not enough to ground the aircraft, but could have been a sign of a more significant problem.
As a result of Lt. Hultgreens mishap, about 2 dozen recommendations and subsequent changes were made to the way Tomcat pilots were trained. More than likely her mishap saved many crews and their aircraft from the same fate.
Mud Eagle
Aviator
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2001
- Posts
- 516
Thanks, I'm well aware of how the PLAT system works. I also have a wee bit of time flying twin-engined fighters and handling single engine emergencies.
If you want to believe that she was valiantly saving lives on the deck of the bo-at by intentionally steering the jet off to the left, have at it.
Last edited:
The language and tone of the Navy's private assessment [the MIR], written to the exacting standards of a confidential safety report, are sharply critical of the pilot. The report finds repeated instances of pilot error. It notes the role of engine trouble but concludes that the pilot's flight-control mistakes were the most critical factors.
Lear Wanna Be
Presidentin' is hard
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2006
- Posts
- 599
Take the time to read the MIR one day. It is critical in the fact that it assumes that the pilot put the aircraft in a side slip which resulted in a compressor stall. It also notes that there was a mechanical problem found that would increase the likely hood of a compressor stall by 26% in any phase of flight. It was also found that her training was deficient in single engine wave-off training as well as other areas. Second, the report faulted her for not communicating the engine failure to her RIO. Result was that the RIO was not aware of the engine failure and could not pass along critical information to the pilot. The engine failed at 300' and 8-10 seconds before impact and she was task saturated. Part of which was steering the aircraft away from the boat. The other two critical areas were the late ejection (trying to not hit the ship and kill other sailors might do that) and exceeding the max SE AOA, which happened 80' above the water just as they cleared the ship.
Let's not forget that this was a very hard time for the F-14 community. They were fighting for their survival and were trying to hang every weapon system known to man off the aircraft. To place blame on the crew was certainly easier than putting blame on the aircraft or the very unreliable and compressor stall prone P&W TF-30P-414 engines. In addition, it was interesting that the senior member and one other member on the investigation board were Viking drivers. Did politics come into play? Probably!! Then there was the issue of how pilot selection from the RAG was changed. Lt. Hultgreen was put into VF-213 because the Lincoln was the first battle group to incorporate women into the fleet. This bypassed the normal recruitment cycle and sent Lt. Hultgreen to the only Lincoln F-14 squadron. Unfortunatly, VF-213 had a very checkered history throughout the early and mid 90s. They lost several aircraft and pilots. A VF-213 Tomcat was the one that crashed coming out of BNA doing an unrestricted climbout. This happened to be the second time in 8 months that the pilot had a mishap resulting in a WO.
So to place blame on the crew was easy and assumed a lot, but it was not entirely truthful. Read between the lines if you read the MIR and just remember all of the circumstances that were involved.
Let's not forget that this was a very hard time for the F-14 community. They were fighting for their survival and were trying to hang every weapon system known to man off the aircraft. To place blame on the crew was certainly easier than putting blame on the aircraft or the very unreliable and compressor stall prone P&W TF-30P-414 engines. In addition, it was interesting that the senior member and one other member on the investigation board were Viking drivers. Did politics come into play? Probably!! Then there was the issue of how pilot selection from the RAG was changed. Lt. Hultgreen was put into VF-213 because the Lincoln was the first battle group to incorporate women into the fleet. This bypassed the normal recruitment cycle and sent Lt. Hultgreen to the only Lincoln F-14 squadron. Unfortunatly, VF-213 had a very checkered history throughout the early and mid 90s. They lost several aircraft and pilots. A VF-213 Tomcat was the one that crashed coming out of BNA doing an unrestricted climbout. This happened to be the second time in 8 months that the pilot had a mishap resulting in a WO.
So to place blame on the crew was easy and assumed a lot, but it was not entirely truthful. Read between the lines if you read the MIR and just remember all of the circumstances that were involved.
Last edited:
Scrapdog
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2006
- Posts
- 1,127
F18-FDX...I couldn't agree with you more. I was thinking the same thing! For pete's sakes, this thread is about chicks that fly fighters with an extremely haenious website...not a Navy Safety Board thread.
Deuce130
Durka Durka Jihad!
- Joined
- Jun 9, 2005
- Posts
- 1,237
Fine, you're called out. I don't think the fighter chicks need you to back them up, certainly not with your fists. What the he** do you think I'm gonna do? Fight one? Or worse yet, actually insult one? Whereupon you, the Tanke Pogue, will step in like the chivalrous bro you want them to think you are and punch me out?
I've known many fighter chicks also, even dated one for awhile. I never said that they weren't solid citizens or warriors. I did, however, comment on your odd hero worship of the female fighter pilot. Now go set up an orbit somewhere, I'm sure some chick needs gas. By the way, it seems like you're a little new to the board. I'd develop a thicker skin if I were you - otherwise you'll just feel like hurling your keyboard through the wall. Especially if you want to fight anonymous people sitting in front of a monitor everytime you get pissed off.
Last edited:
Gorilla
King of Belize
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2005
- Posts
- 1,132
Here's the deal... maybe the older guys can relate. When the chicks first arrived in the AF ca. 1990/91 (the squids a bit earlier), we had a few CTJ (come to Jesus) meetings in preparation at Holloman for fighter lead-in training. In front of a roomful of male fighter IP's, the commanders announced in no uncertain terms that "the women are coming, and the word from on-high is this: THEY WILL PASS THE COURSE." Translation: Standards will be different for them. What would wash out a male is now acceptable for a female.
That was not a good way to ram this concept down our throats. I left the AF before they showed up, but it left a bitter taste. I have no idea what's going on these days. It may be totally level playing field. Probably is. But the entire concept of different standards for men vs. women has been around ever since women have joined the military, especially PT standards for ground troops.
Someone will try to make a race analogy here... go for it. But logic says that while races are truly equivalent in innate capabilities, the sexes are not, both in terms of simple physical strength, and in cognitive issues.
That was not a good way to ram this concept down our throats. I left the AF before they showed up, but it left a bitter taste. I have no idea what's going on these days. It may be totally level playing field. Probably is. But the entire concept of different standards for men vs. women has been around ever since women have joined the military, especially PT standards for ground troops.
Someone will try to make a race analogy here... go for it. But logic says that while races are truly equivalent in innate capabilities, the sexes are not, both in terms of simple physical strength, and in cognitive issues.
Bjammin
Cease Buzzer
- Joined
- May 13, 2004
- Posts
- 585
To me it's a self licking ice cream cone.
Females DO get special execptions in training and are looked down upon because of it by there fellow classmates. This leads to some making it thorugh instead of being attrited, ie:they bacome the weakest link in the squadron and are looked down upon by their squadron mates. They may have even a higher accident rate because of this. News travels fast and it doesn't take long to form opinions about female pilots in general.
It truly must suck if you are truly a GOOD female fighter pilot.
I have been watching this for the past 12 years as a student, squadron bubba, and then as an IP. Sad really.
Females DO get special execptions in training and are looked down upon because of it by there fellow classmates. This leads to some making it thorugh instead of being attrited, ie:they bacome the weakest link in the squadron and are looked down upon by their squadron mates. They may have even a higher accident rate because of this. News travels fast and it doesn't take long to form opinions about female pilots in general.
It truly must suck if you are truly a GOOD female fighter pilot.
I have been watching this for the past 12 years as a student, squadron bubba, and then as an IP. Sad really.
Last edited:
Share this page
Latest resources
-
-
-
-
-
AC 90-89C - Amateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing HandbookAmateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing Handbook
- Neal
- Updated:
