Chicago runway too slick at Crash

[canyonblue]

Like it or not, Southwest has the cowboy image.

Like it or not, United has the a$$hole image. You, and the other idiots on this board sure keep that alive.

 

[SWAdude]

As for Southwest's cowboy image, let me hit on just a few points. SWA has a reputation for taxiing excessively fast, which I've personally witnessed. SWA is not certified for autoland, in spite of this being an older and very reliable technology. SWA did not permit autobrakes to be used, as per FOM. Does SWA have the autothrottles working now? SWA has adopted an attitude that they will fly the 737 'old school.' This brings increased risk. When there is zero margin for error, your crews are being set up for failure.
Like it or not, Southwest has the cowboy image.

I would rather have a cowboy image anyday verses an image of self- rightous I can do better than the next guy image.

You are throwing stones in your own glass house and your emotions have made you totally blind to yourself.

We all work in an industry that is going to have accidents. It is more likely than not that all our airlines will have accidents and incidents in our careers. To try and prove incompetence or neglect in any of these events is just plain ignorant. It tells me that you think it can't happen to you. Which is unsafe in itself.

Andy,

You know your airline much better than I do. As well as I know my airline much better than you do. There is an unfortunate difference these days. I have flown with several of your former colleagues and they have all said that our operation is outstanding. Not perfect but well designed.

And remember, if your 747-400 would have been 200 feet lower, well, need I say more.

 

[Slug]

Andy,

I don't know what you are talking about me editing out the 13vs31 comment. It is still in there. My edit was to say you were my classmate, not my sim partner (which I originally typed).

 

[Andy]

Andy,

I don't know what you are talking about me editing out the 13vs31 comment. It is still in there. My edit was to say you were my classmate, not my sim partner (which I originally typed).

Missed that; saw the edit. You may want to actually read the NTSB initial report. It mentions the runway change.

 

[Andy]

I would rather have a cowboy image anyday verses an image of self- rightous I can do better than the next guy image.

I clearly stated in an earlier post that my skills are subpar in comparision to any and all SWA pilots. How does that make me better than the next guy?

You are throwing stones in your own glass house and your emotions have made you totally blind to yourself.

I am dumbfounded how your compadres can start a thread where it is clear that your company is going to receive incoming flak, and then when that inevitable incoming occurs, you boys circle the wagons and declare WWIII on those that voice criticism. If you don't want to talk about your dirty laundry, don't flaunt it in public. I don't write posts about reverse discrimination hiring practices or San Mateo (the incident you referred to) and I don't see other Yonited pilots writing those posts either.

We all work in an industry that is going to have accidents. It is more likely than not that all our airlines will have accidents and incidents in our careers. To try and prove incompetence or neglect in any of these events is just plain ignorant. It tells me that you think it can't happen to you. Which is unsafe in itself.

To ask you to read the initial NTSB report is also plain ignorant on my part. So I won't.
Can an accident happen to me? Easily. I could be another San Mateo with less favorable results. But it won't be from accepting multiple high risk factors and allowing near zero margin for error in order to have my flight land at it's intended destination.
I try to learn from accidents and incidents so that I won't be the next statistic. I thought that was a widespread technique in the industry. It appears that I've been proven wrong once again. Did you learn anything from the MDW accident?

And remember, if your 747-400 would have been 200 feet lower, well, need I say more.

If you are looking for me to defend the crew's actions WRT the San Mateo incident, you're barking up the wrong tree. Multiple errors were made on the crew's part. It is only due to miraculous luck that there was not a hull loss. It was not only 200 feet lower, but also several hundred feet right or left that would have met with disastrous results. The aircraft threaded the eye of a small needle in which no part was due to crew actions.

 

[Andy]

Like it or not, United has the a$$hole image. You, and the other idiots on this board sure keep that alive.

You forgot to add the minority/female hiring image.



For the life of me, I can't figure out why you Southwest boys keep bringing this thread to the top of the stack. Do you collectively have such a large deficit of gray matter that you continuously post lame remarks that result in this thread remaining on page 1? Get a clue. If you don't want to talk about this, stop posting on the thread.

Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.--George Santayana

 

[SWA/FO]

Dude the WINGS are killing Coyotes... 7 - 3 now.

Cowboy...cowboy...
Well I'm packing up my game and I'm a head out west
Where real women come equipped with scripts and fake breasts
Find a nest in the hills chill like Flynt
Buy an old droptop find a spot to pimp
And I'm a Kid Rock it up and down your block
With a bottle of scotch and watch lots of crotch
Buy yacht with a flag sayin' chillin' the most
Then rock that bitch up and down the coast
Give a toast to the sun, drink with the stars
Get thrown in the mix and tossed out of bars
Sip the teajuna ...I wanna roam
Find the old town chillin' fools then come back home
Start an escort service, for all the right reasons
And set up shop at the top of four seasons
Kid Rock and I'm the real mccoy
And I'm headin' out west sucker...because I wanna be a
Cowboy baby
With the top let back and the sunshine shining
Cowboy baby
West coast chillin? with the Boone's Wine
I wanna be a Cowboy baby
Ridin' at night 'cause I sleep all day
Cowboy baby
I can smell a pig from a mile away

I bet you'll hear my whistle blowin' when my train rolls in
It goes (whistle) like dust in the wind
Stoned pimp, stoned freak, stoned out of my mind
I once was lost, but now I'm just blind
Palm trees and weeds, scabbed knees and rice
Get a map to the stars, find Heidi Fleiss
And if the price is right I'm gonna make my bid boy

And let Cali-for-ny-aye know why they call me
Cowboy baby
With the top let back and the sunshine shining
Cowboy baby
West coast chillin? with the Boone's Wine
I wanna be a Cowboy baby
Ridin' at night 'cause I sleep all day
Cowboy baby
I can smell a pig from a mile away

Yeah...Kid Rock...you can call me Tex
Rollin' sunset woman with a bottle of Becks
Seen a slimmy in a 'vette, rolled down my glass
And said, "Yeah this dick fits right in your ass"
No kiddin', gun slingin', spurs hittin' the floor
Call me Hoss, I'm the Boss, with the sauce in the horse
No remorse for the sherrif, in his eye I ain't right
I'm gonna paint his town red, and paint his wife white HUH
Cause chaos, rock like Amadeus
Find West Coast ************************* for my Detroit players
Mack like mayors, ball like Lakers
They told us to leave, but bet they can't make us
Why they wanna pick on me...lock me up and snort away my key
I ain't no G, I'm just a regular failure
I ain't straight outta compton I'm straight out the trailer
Cuss like a sailor...drink like a Mc (mick...as in Irishman)
My only words of wisdom are just, "Radio Edit." (Suck My Dick)
I'm flickin' my Bic up and down that coast and
Keep on truckin' until it falls into motion

Cowboy
With the top let back and the sunshine shining
Cowboy
Spendin' all my time at Hollywood and Vine
Cowboy
Ridin' at night 'cause I sleep all day
Cowboy
I can smell a pig from a mile away
Cowboy
With the top let back and the sunshine shining
Cowboy
With the top let back and the sunshine shining
Cowboy
Hollywood and Vine

 

[FN FAL]

Like it or not, United has the a$$hole image. You, and the other idiots on this board sure keep that alive.

A comma before "and" is redundant.

 

[Hvy]

And I have the luxury of caling you out. You are a hater. You aren't gathering information, you aren't seeing if there is something you can learn here. You are taking a fatal accident and using it as an excuse to slam your least favorite airline. Screw you. Our safty record is OUTSTANDING. We are proud of it and we work to maintain and improve it every day. It is absolutly our top priority. To say otherwise is a slam on every pilot here. And that is really your intent here isn't it? You have some grudge against us and this is your chance to settle up. Well not today; to draw conculsions and assign blame before the NTSB does is the currency of fools and cowards.

Thank you for identifying yourselves:
- Hvy
- Andy
- RP04 (carried over from previous thread)

I have nothing against SWA. I have friends there. I have jumpseated on your airline (and treated very well I might add). I even buy my mother tickets on Southwest. So no, I don't have anything against your airline. I stated some facts that were available from the ATIS at the time (maybe the ATIS was incorrect? ). I then asked what your method was of determining whether or not it was safe/wise to land.

You don't seem to handle these questions very well. If you're not mature enough to answer them without a rant then perhaps you should leave the explanations to one of the pilots for your company that is.

 

[Hvy]

Andy, with your arrogance I can only assume you fly for United. No matter how much you dislike us, it won't make us go away. If that were the case UAL would have been out of business years ago.

Gup

Now that was a mature statement.

We know what your feelings about UAL are....you have been making negative posts for a couple of years.

 

[SWA/FO]

Hvy,

I've landed at MDW with the ATIS calling the winds calm only to find a full windsock on short final.

They are probably better thesedays with changing the ATIS quicker. Everything should get better, people learn from their mistakes, we should hope. Everyone can agree on this.

 

[StopNTSing]

For the life of me, I can't figure out why you Southwest boys keep bringing this thread to the top of the stack. Do you collectively have such a large deficit of gray matter that you continuously post lame remarks that result in this thread remaining on page 1? Get a clue. If you don't want to talk about this, stop posting on the thread.

Because there is more to this story than what would otherwise get posted by the resident SWA-haters. That being said, I do regret being the spark to canyonblue's gasoline. This thread has accomplised nothing other than to reinforce where everyone already stands on the accident.

 

[Andy]

Because there is more to this story than what would otherwise get posted by the resident SWA-haters. That being said, I do regret being the spark to canyonblue's gasoline. This thread has accomplised nothing other than to reinforce where everyone already stands on the accident.

This is not about hating Southwest. It is about leaving zero margin for error. Yes, the approach was legal. Barely. But I don't consider it to have been a safe decision. That is quite clear in the NTSB initial report.

As far as where everyone stands on this, what I see is a bunch of Southwest pilots attacking me for voicing that there was excessive risk involved with the mishap flight. If there were a lot of non-Southwest pilots attacking me for my comments, I'd take stock of it, but the vocal attacks on me have come from Southwest pilots. I might add that it appears that you (collectively) appear to have not read the NTSB initial report; if you had, there wouldn't be some of the comments made like how hard it is to switch runways from 31 to 13.
It's funny that you mentioned the cowboy thing in post #2. I was at an airport the day after the accident, and I overheard two people talking about the accident; one of them mentioned that Southwest has a reputation for being a bunch of cowboys. They were both in suit & tie, so I can't tell who they worked for, except that one of them said he was a VP for some small chain of health food stores. I did not talk to them.

I wish everyone at Southwest the best. It's a well run company. Hopefully Southwest will take stock of how they do business and reevaluate the minimum margin of safety for daily operations.
SWADude pointed out the San Mateo incident; as a result of that flight, there has been an increased emphasis on takeoff and landing currencies for widebody crews. UAL increased the number of domestic flights on the 777 & 400 so that crews would have more opportunities for takeoffs and landings. I think that was a very proactive step to fix a problem; I hope that Southwest looks at how they can prevent a future occurrence akin to Midway.

 

[pgcfii2002]

Chicago runway too slick at Crash

By Alan Levin, USA TODAY

The runway at Chicago's Midway International Airport was much slicker than pilots were led to believe on the snowy December night that a Southwest Airlines jet skidded through a fence and killed a 6-year-old boy, according to a USA TODAY analysis.

Runway 31C was so slippery that it would have been difficult for people to walk on, providing minimal traction for the jet's tires as pilots tried to slow down from a speed of about 150 mph, the analysis of investigative records found.

The accident on Dec. 8 raises national safety implications because it shows that the system of testing slick runways has potentially fatal flaws. Without accurate information about runway conditions, pilots can stumble into danger without warning.

Officials at Midway have said conditions on the runway were "good" when Flight 1248 skidded into a roadway and struck a car, killing Joshua Woods.

Other pilots who landed shortly before the accident reported that conditions on the runway ranged from "good" to "poor" in spots.

But the USA TODAY analysis, based on a physics formula using information released by the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), shows the conditions were "poor" at best. The computation uses the plane's speed and the distance it traveled on the ground. (Related: Pure runway physics)

The official investigation has reached similar conclusions about how slick the runways were, said two aviation sources familiar with those results.

The physics formula used in the newspaper's analysis was validated by two prominent researchers: Vijay Gupta, a professor of aerospace and mechanical engineering at UCLA, and Mark Drela, an aeronautics professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

"Holy cow, that's a scary ride," said Patrick Veillette, a corporate pilot with a doctorate who has written extensively on aviation-safety issues. "That had to have been a horrible feeling, touching down and having essentially no braking effectiveness at all."

The Federal Aviation Administration says it wants a better way for checking slick runways, but argues it has not found a system that is reliable for all aircraft.

On Dec. 8, the pilots on Flight 1248 from Baltimore to Chicago touched down at 7:14 p.m. in heavy snow.

They assumed the runway was in "fair" condition, based on reports from other pilots radioed to them by air traffic controllers. For reasons that have not been explained, the Boeing 737-700's thrust reversers — which help jets slow down — did not begin operating for 18 seconds. NTSB's investigation is months away from determining a cause for the accident.

Midway used two federally approved machines to measure conditions that night, airport spokeswoman Wendy Abrams said. She declined to offer additional details or to comment on USA TODAY's analysis because of the investigation.

And let me guess....the runway was too short for crash too???

 

[pgcfii2002]

The last 6 words in this paragraph just crack me up.

At least they didn't say...."USA Today Experts........."