Chautauqua TA vote

[Ivan Yankenoff]

Why I'm voting No!!!!!!!!

One payscale for all aircraft types for FO's.
Year 2 rates did increase a good share but are still 27% and 39% below Comair.

Year 3 and 4 FO rates only increased a little over 1% from the expired contract from over two years ago.

Only four years of rates listed for FO's. Was there any FO's negotiating?

You may ask why I'm picking out the FO rates when no one stays an FO long at this company and my answer is what happens if there is another attack, recession, depression? Do you think the company is going to give you higher pay rates at the end of your fourth year out of the goodness of their hearts?

Pay rates for Captain 60-78 averages about 15% below Comair and Horizon and this increases to 19% lower at the end of Comairs contract. Even in this environment there is no reason that Chautauqua can't be within 5%. A 10 year Captain is looking at a $6300/year difference at min. guarantee. That will make a very nice car payment.

Pay rates for Captain 50-59 averages about 7% below Comair and increases to 11% difference at the end of Comairs contract. Again there is no reason that the difference can't be so drastic.

Captain 79-99 pay rates. One word terrible. So they maybe higher than skywest or whoever but there is no way to rationalize someone flying a 90+ passenger aircraft with 15 years longevity and he/she isn't making 120.00/hour. FO's at ATA, Southwest, Midwest and AirTran make more than these Captain's rates, pitiful.

Per Diem $1.45, give me a break.

PBS, doesn't benifit 80% of the work group. Most people will see their schedules get worse. This also opens many holes for the company to screw you unless the union deals with this directly.

PDO's, many companies accrue sick leave at the rates this company accrues sick and vacation together. 16 days off after 5 years and this includes any sick time you may have. I know there is limited banking of these but this still sucks. This above all others must be changed.

Retirement/401(k) still substandard.

 

[Cracker]

Why don't you post these concerns on the CHQ Union Website?

 

[StarChecker]

Please help me understand how people can compare contract negotiations pre- and post- 9/11. I really don't understand how that can reasonably be done. Comparing what we have to what Comair got 2 years ago is unrealistic. If even half the things happen at CHQ that we're hearing are going to happen, we'll be far better off in terms of growth and upgrade.

 

[captjim]

Please help me understand how people can compare contract negotiations pre- and post- 9/11. I really don't understand how that can reasonably be done. Comparing what we have to what Comair got 2 years ago is unrealistic. If even half the things happen at CHQ that we're hearing are going to happen, we'll be far better off in terms of growth and upgrade.

I'm gonna get flaimed for this, but screw it. If you guys are gonna take Comair's, and ASA's flying atleast you can grow a pair and get paid for it. You guys sign off on this POS and you'll be in the same catagory as Mesa. Nuff said.

 

[embraerjetpilot]

You know, before Comair got their contract, we had one of the best contracts in the industry...hello can we say no junior manning... we still do in several ways... granted we needed some changes, some loopholes covered, and a scope claus..

Granted we dont have the highest pay...but quality of life is everything...

are there some things in this contract that i think arent perfect, yes... but for the most part I think our EC did an excellent job looking out for our interests, and if this is what they say is the best thing for us, then my vote is yes..

its called reality man...

 

[captjim]

capjim... where are you? its called reality man...

My location is dead in the middle of negotiations!

 

[C210drvr]

One question IVAN, Did you go to the road show?

 

[T-Gates]

Yeah but it looks like another TA where the F/O's take it in the shorts with pay.... That pisses me off....

Yes, we will all be captains eventually but why should the 1st and 2nd year F/O's get the shaft?

--T

 

[Ivan Yankenoff]

Please help me understand how people can compare contract negotiations pre- and post- 9/11. I really don't understand how that can reasonably be done. Comparing what we have to what Comair got 2 years ago is unrealistic. If even half the things happen at CHQ that we're hearing are going to happen, we'll be far better off in terms of growth and upgrade.

Why not? Doesn't CHQ spend 25% less per plane than Comair? Where does all that savings go because it definitly doesn't go for salaries and benifits. Don't give me this pre and post 9-11 bs.

All these if's, rumors and wishes. You know you can wish in one hand and sh*t in the other and they both will do you the same. I've been told enough lies from managements over the years to get me to sign off on this, that and the other thing that I'm conditioned to not take any worth in anything they say, especially when my compliance and approval is required. When you evaluate a TA you need to look at as if the company will remain as it is now forever or worse. Don't vote because of the rumors and if's that management leaks out. A good TA will stand on it's own merit, not hints of maybe if you vote for this and you are good this may happen. Vote for the proposal, not the rumors, because it is just that a proposal. If it is voted down changes will happen for the better. Managements goal is to get 51% to vote for it. If they get more than that then they overbid.

 

[I.P. Freley]

>>>Don't give me this pre and post 9-11 bs.<<<

Hahahahahahahahahahaha!!!

Yeah, you're right, anyone who dares claim that what some were able to get pre-9/11, pre-recession, pre-mass layoffs is likely unobtainable now is slinging "bs".



Wake up, dude.

 

[Ivan Yankenoff]

One question IVAN, Did you go to the road show?

No, but what does that matter? I can read(not write) above a sixth grade level. When I get to the words that are too long, I have brother in law(labor lawyer)sound then out for me.

This is the third TA(different carriers) I have been able to vote on and the first I will vote against. I prefer not to go to the roadshow as to not to get involved in the unions sales pitch and rumors.

 

[blott]

Ivan,

Since you did not go to the road show, you missed out on alot of important info. Have you expressed your views on the ibt website, or read anything on there? There are reasons everything in the TA is like it is-the road show will fill you in on it. Call one of the EC guys, and tell them you're feelings, and listen to what they have to say.

Your ec guys are not in bed with management, and they didn't put out a BS TA (like alot of the other union guys did that you read here). They will NOT try to snowball you.

If you have done the above things, then vote no.

If not, stop running your suck-its an insult to our EC guys. Educate yourself as to why the TA is like it is, or ask somone who can explain it to you.

This is not a flame twards you. I felt the same way at first 'till I talked to the EC guys.

B

 

[blott]

captjim,

Same class as MESA, are you for real? Grow some balls?, our pilot group has the big hairy ones.

If I ever hear you say we laid down like MESA I will stomp the sh_t out of you...I consider that a personal attack.

B

 

[Ivan Yankenoff]

Since you did not go to the road show, you missed out on alot of important info

What, they can read better than me? If it's not in the contract then I don't want to hear about it. The negotiating team has a job of trying to sell their product. I choose to read the promotional material myself and make my own decision based on the written legally binding material. Plus I just hate it when they try to talk me into the undercoating.

If not, stop running your suck-its an insult to our EC guys

If they are insulted then they have some thin skin and probably shouldn't be working on a union committee, I know, I was the chairman of a committee at my last carrier until I was furloughed.

By my best guess this contract cost the company about 28% less than the Comair contract. Even post 9-11 that is a slap in the face. I would accept maybe 10-12% because of the so-called 9-11 factor. I just believe we gave in because of the furloughees pressure and many many carrots being dangled by management. Should have went into the 30 day cooling off period and the 11th hour to see if they were real.

Please furloughees don't jump down my throat. I've been there four times plus on strike once so I know all about the gov't cheese.

All this talk about how great the no JA clause. I'd give that up for a real per diem rate. I can ignore my phone with the best of them. Commuter clause? What did this cost us, a real sick leave and vacation? Hmm, seems to me that if I can't make it to work I can use some of that family medical leave act. There is always someone in every family who is sick, injured or insane and may need attention. Christ, I think my inlaws are all three at once sometimes.

 

[TWAER]

I didn't know it was Comair or ASA's flying. I was under the impression it was DELTA"S FLYING.

 

[Strikefinder]

I'll never be the guy to tell anybody that they're stupid to vote either way on something as important as this TA we're being faced with. I think there's a certain amount of merit to either side of the issue, and that it's worth investigating both sides before coming to any logical conclusion about the validity or lack thereof of this offer.

I attended the road show and found it informative. I'd like to think I asked a lot of rather difficult questions, and for the most part (though not entirely), I felt that my concerns were explained. I agree that there is a certain amount of propaganda coming from our union group, but no less so than the "You bastards are as bad as Mesa" stuff that's gotten flung around here. We all see such agreements first through our own context before really being able to appreciate the impact on others, whether you are a CHQ employee or not.

There are some issues that compel me toward an affirmative vote on this TA. I understand how popular it is to discount external, specific factors that our pilot group faces with regards to these negotiations, but I believe that there is at least some merit to some of these situations. Republic, for instance, does exist. They've taken possession of their hangar in SDF, and from what I understand they've started to train pilots. No, they don't have a certificate yet, but the company has invested millions of dollars in the development for the company, and I believe that they intend to see their investment come to fruition.

From what I seem to remember, the Republic pay scales would mirror PSA's wage rates. Once again, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe PSA's wage rates aren't that great, and are pretty universally less than our TA across the board. They're paid $1.40 per diem. They're reserves are only guaranteed 72 hours. Their deadheads are paid at 50%. I believe it is a distinct possibility that should we refuse the contract presented to us, Republic would begin operation and the ComAirs, ASAs, and CoExs of the world would not have to worry about competing with CHQ's "inferior TA", as Republic would be able to effectively undercut us for the same business because their wage rates are even less. I also don't know if USAir mainline and ALPA will continue to support our fight against Republic; If they believe that our contract was reasonable (and likely they will, as the J4J guys will have gotten a better deal than going with PSA rates), they'll probably loosen their stance against mainline USAir. There is no guarantee that this will happen, I admit, but remember that it *did* happen with Freedom, and there is no doubt in my mind that it is possible for it to happen again. Mesaba's stand sure isn't helping them stop Pinnacle, either, is it?

The pay rates are not ComAir's, and that gets pounded into all of our heads all of the time. However, they exceed Air Wisconsin, Piedmont, Mesa, Eagle, Allegheny, PSA, ACA's concessionary contract (which, I admit, is not currently in effect, though ACA is asking its pilots to re-sign the concessions exclusive of the United agreement), TSA, Pinnacle, CoEx, and basically ties ASA. Our per diem is horrible? It's better than Air Whiskey, CoEx, Piedmont, Mesa, Allegheny, and PSA, and ties Eagle. Yes, we've escaped Junion Manning, which is a big deal breaker for me. Our sub-standard 401(k) plan basically matches ComAir's, and even exceeds it after year 6 (ComAir contributes 50% of 5%, or effectively 100% of 2.5%, throughout a pilot's tenure. After year 6 CHQ contributes 100% of 4%, and after year 13 it becomes 100% of 6%).

The lack of extension of FO pay scales was a bargain for the company, as our J4J agreement stipulates that FOs are paid the highest available wage rate from day one. If we had a wage rate that was, say, ten dollars an hour higher than our top FO rate, the company would be spending an incredibly larger amount of money to bring the J4J folks on to our property instead of Republic's. It's a calculated risk. As an FO who would be affected by this cap before the end of the contract, if ratified, I admit there's a possibililty of things happening to preclude my upgrade before then. However, the pay I'd lose over a few years would hardly compete with the pay I'd lose if we ended up losing one-quarter of the growth that we expect that would be diverted to Republic to gain a fifth and sixth year pay rate.

Finally, I don't believe, by my understanding of the structure of the NMB, it's as easy as everyone thinks for us to just "start the cooling off period and go on strike." Remember that our rejection of the first TA was, by IBT bylaws, a strike vote. We've had almost two years with an outstanding strike vote, and we haven't been able to get to the cooling off period. The NMB generally does not release airlines for strike during peak times, such as holidays (any holidays you know of in November and December?). The earliest we'd see a cooling off period would be January or February, and with labor's position in this conservative government, I doubt that we'd see the cooling off period start then. Then 30 more days... do you think Republic can be up and running in the next six months? Remember our last TA that was voted down? We'll go back to the table, and get it fixed in a few months! Here we are, two years later, currently earning the bottom wage rates, and would continue to do so for some time should we vote this contract down. Remember, folks, we don't just go back and renegotiate pay rates or PDOs if we vote this down; The whole process starts from scratch. I'm willing to bet the company will open up every section of the contract to delay the process as long as possible, too, as they should. We're already getting paid less than everybody else, aren't we?!

I will not ever contend that this is a perfect contract. It's not. There are some things I'm not happy about. But from my rose-colored glasses, I think that under the circumstances we're faced with, it's a reasonable deal. It's a building block. It improves our current situation drastically. It's achieved improvements in the face of an alter-ego, a terrorist attack, and many concessonary contracts signed by our competitors (people who live in glass houses...). And I truly believe that no matter what contract we get, somebody out there will call us a bunch of bottom feeders. So be it. You're still welcome in my jumpseat (well, if and when it becomes "my" jumpseat), and I wish you the best of luck. As I'm fond of saying, I'm not going to lose any sleep over the issue.

If I've presented any information inaccurately, I did not mean to do so, and I hope somebody would (politely) correct me. We all need the most accurate information to make these decisions. And though some of you might not want to listen to a bunch of contrary "propaganda", I'll listen to anything you have to say (I need not shut out others' opinions to justify my own).

In the meantime, everybody do your homework before you check 'yes' or 'no', and when it's all over and done, whatever the outcome, lets move forward.

 

[mckpickle]

Good for you for voting no. You will be one of the few guys that eill be able to say I voted no when the crap hits the fan and FO's are sitting right seat for 4 years.

And how come Comair can still afford to stay liquid and be profitable?

 

[TWAER]

How bout big daddy Delta helps you out. Need I say more????

 

[LuvMyJob]

[some changes, some loopholes covered, and a scope claus..

What do you mean by a scope clause? I was just curious as I thought that was something that the majors put into their contracts to keep the regionals from growing out of control.

 

[Caveman]

TWAER posted: "How bout big daddy Delta helps you out. Need I say more????"

If that is in response to mcpickle's comment about Comair's ability to stay profitable then you have just demonstrated your complete lack of insight into the current state of the industry. The only segments of the industry making any money are the LCCs the RJ airlines. If anything Comair and ASA are supporting the mainline operation. Without the WO's the financial bleeding would be much, much worse.

Comair doesn't need DAL nearly as badly as DAL needs Comair and ASA. Comair and ASA could operate just fine without mainline. Either WO has 150+ airplanes each. They each have a major hub to operate from and you can get to/from just about any city over 50K poulation east of the Mississippi on either ASA or Comair with only a single stop in ATL or CVG. Comair has over 800 departures a day and is moving over 1,000,000 pax per month. ASA is even bigger than that.

I do not deny that there is a symbiotic component to the DAL and CMR/ASA equation. There is a demonstrable benefit to being affiliated with mainline. But to suggest that CMR/ASA are being subsidized by DAL is absurd.