Chautauqua TA vote

[Cracker]

Just received it in the mail 2 days ago...everyone should be get theirs as well.

 

[I.P. Freley]

Ah. Well. That settles it.

 

[Ivan Yankenoff]

Cracker---

Just keep rationalizing why you don't deserve the best and whola you will get it. I hear JO is looking for someone to come up with some new innovative ways to say that pilots are overpaid.

Health Care?-- I thought every pilot married a nurse or a teacher. Seems to me that they have the best insurance in the world.

What does a carrier age have to do with it? Does a unionized plumber get paid less if he works for a company that just started? Hell no. Same work equals same pay. I would say the CHQ guys work harder than Comair because they have to know all the differences of each mainline carrier.

If I brought up some of these lame excuse to some of my family and friends who work in the trades I would be laughed out of the room. Say what you want about the trades, but my brother makes a hell of a lot more money than me and he has never been unemployed.

 

[I.P. Freley]

If you don't know the difference between "the trades" and the airlines, then noone will likely have to explain the difference to you.

Furthermore, like it or not, how many contracts a carrier has does in fact have an effect upon how good those contracts are. First ones are rarely good, later ones get progressively better.

But, since you are such a keen industry observer, you already knew that... Looks like you just want to fight.

And... "Whola" (took me six or seven reads to assume that you meant "voila"), looks like you got one.

 

[Ivan Yankenoff]

Furthermore, like it or not, how many contracts a carrier has does in fact have an effect upon how good those contracts are. First ones are rarely good, later ones get progressively better.

Ask a United, American or Air Whisky pilot how good their contract is. Seems to me they have been negotiating contracts for a few years and look what they have now. More the reason to get every last dime you can when you can.

I guess hook phonics didn't work for me.

 

[Cracker]

I guess it's still all about perspective. It will be hard to get everyone at CHQ, let alone at other airlines, to agree on what is good for the contract and what is good for growth given the wide spread of demographics we have here.

It comes down to finding a happy median and try to get what is best for the whole. If we don't like it, we can vote it down and start over. Hell, we might even be able to get everything we want by putting continued pressure on the company. I guess we'll only know if it pays in the end and that may be years away. Besides, the airline industry has always taken a few years to show results, why should this be any different.

I'm sure everyone is waiting to yell the "I told you so!"s when that time comes.

 

[Avi8tor2000]

Who cares why you're voting no anyways?

Are you just voicing your opinion to get people on this board to pat you on your back and tell you good job? I think so.

If you hate the contract so much and are disgusted with your peers who are going to vote it in will you quit?

 

[lazy8s]

How is a four year contract short? This will be the longest contract that I have worked under. Just keep fearing Republic and playing into managements hand.

you obvously haven't been at CHQ very long, the current contract is at 5 years and counting.......
Vote what you want, but if the TA fails, the current contract will be a 7 year contract guaranteed!!



[/B][/QUOTE] Legal maybe but if you aren't smart enough to find a way to get out of it you are clueless. Anyone who gets junior manned and doesn't want to be just isn't using their noggin. [/B][/QUOTE]

If you were to get J/M'd on the release, you CAN'T get out of it unless you call off sick. Do that every week and they'd find a way to fire you real quick. You should know the schedulers by now, if you piss them off, they can find ways to make your life hell......

Flame away boys!!!!

 

[Strikefinder]

"Ask a United, American or Air Whisky pilot how good their contract is."

Ivan,

Not to nitpick on your argument, but you brought up how "good" Air Whiskey's contract is, but our TA will put our wage rates ahead of theirs. We'll also get paid a higher per diem.

Where's your angst for them?

Also, as to contract length, ask an Eagle pilot how many years they have on their contract left, ask them what they get paid, and then try to console them while they cry...

 

[dav8or]

Who cares why you're voting no anyways?

Are you just voicing your opinion to get people on this board to pat you on your back and tell you good job? I think so.

If you hate the contract so much and are disgusted with your peers who are going to vote it in will you quit?

He said he has already had 3 jobs and hasn't found happiness yet. If Comair is better maybe you should send them an ap.

If money is so important in your decision then why don't you figure out how much of a raise it would take to make the difference between our current pay rate and what you think we should be making given that it will be 6 months or longer before we get another TA. Now figure how many upgrade slots went to RP while we were waiting and how much longer you will have wait on Ca pay. Now with that said do you think $2 more an hour or 20 year FO rates make a difference.

 

[Ivan Yankenoff]

If you hate the contract so much and are disgusted with your peers who are going to vote it in will you quit?

Yes, I was only staying in this business to hopefully earn some type of retirement. Since there is no DC plan in this agreement and the wages aren't such that I'll have some excess cash to put into the 401(k), it's better for me to spend more time on my business, do some part time flying for a friend of mine and hope for a recall to my prior carrier in the next few years.

I had my requirements figured out that would be needed for it to make sense for me to stay flying and at this point it would be hard for me to justify the time away from my family, when I can make more money in my home and still contribute more to my retirement.

.

but you brought up how "good" Air Whiskey's contract is

I may be wrong but I don't remember comparing this TA to Air Wisky.

If you were to get J/M'd on the release, you CAN'T get out of it unless you call off sick. Do that every week and they'd find a way to fire you real quick. You should know the schedulers by now, if you piss them off, they can find ways to make your life hell......

Its called wife works third shift and daycare or the babysitter aren't available at my airlines whim. Never been JM'd through a release though, at all my prior airlines this was not allowed. Been asked to JM dozens of times in my years in the airlines but only ended up actually flying one. Not a big fan of accepting JM or picking up open time I would rather see some incentive for the airline to hire more pilots. Never been fired, not even a memo, call or comment from the chief pilot about my avoidance of JMing.

He said he has already had 3 jobs and hasn't found happiness yet. If Comair is better maybe you should send them an ap.

Here again, never said I wasn't happy at any of my last jobs, actually I was very happy at my last carrier that I was furloughed from. 4 carriers (2 were great, 1 ok, 1 not so great but it has done a 180 and is a nice place to work now)


Well enough of this crap, sorry to get everyone undies in a bundle. Good luck and we're all counting on you

 

[OldManPilot]

Is it possible the reason that fhe F/O's payscale was kept to 4 years is J4J?

Remember J4J F/O's get the TOP pay for F/O's. With that, Chautauqua was able to limit the money paid for J4J by limiting the F/O pay scale.

Just a posibility

 

[Buss_Driver]

This may invite a great deal of flame but here goes...

If you are not inclined to see CHQ (and its employees) prosper or really don't care either way (would rather work for the airline that previously furloughed you), just abstain from the vote.

Don't get me wrong. If you have strong convictions, either way, vote your convictions! Also, don't call me a JO wet dream or any other such MESAesque thing because I think that holding out for more green and killing the company from the inside is a bad thing.

Remember, CHQ is only part of the Republic and, for that matter, Wexford family. Whatever we vote, they are in a win-win situation as has been pointed out: YES = they get us cheaper than we deserve and get to keep building on our backs only to start this again in 4 years vs. NO = they get to build Republic on our graves and we won't have any say in any number of years. I don't care so much about flying jets that I would take a job with Republic instead of a recall to CHQ.

So, this is kind of like a political campaign and many other compromises. Choosing the lesser of two evils is all we've got and we had better not get so caught up in our own self-importance to forget how little we are able to affect. I'm sure I've heard a few of these before but here goes: together we are strong, divided we fall; it is better to live to fight another day; the problems of two (or a few) little people don't matter a hill of beans (in this big corprate mess).

That's it. Vote as you see fit but, if you just don't give a flying fig don't skew the results.

 

[Airpiraterob]

youre right buss....you will get alot of flame for that one. ill try not to fart near by

see you in october (hopefully)

 

[Strikefinder]

I may be wrong but I don't remember comparing this TA to Air Wisky.

Well, on September 23 at 23:59, you said this:

Ask a United, American or Air Whisky pilot how good their contract is.

Perhaps I misunderstood you, but you seemed to imply that Air Whiskey had gotten a good contract, and that we should speak to one of their pilots to see "how it's done". In fact, most people believe that Air Whiskey has a pretty good contract from what I've heard, and as I pointed out, our pay rates will be above theirs. This is not to imply superiority of our contract through and through, but to point out that in relative terms, our contract is not anywhere near the worst out there.

I won't criticize any decision you make to go back to whatever business you happen to run on the side, nor will I be happy should you decide to leave. I like the people I work with (and maybe I know you, and maybe I don't), and I don't like changes in the family. I'm serious. I would like for this job to be for you what it is for me.

I haven't the luxury of a seniority number at a larger carrier, nor a business on the side that can sustain me while otherwise out of work. I'd like to think that it's not because I'm not a smart guy, but rather because I've spent the past few years chasing this career around investing most of my time, money, and energy to gaining access to the field.

Chautauqua is all I happen to have to put things in perspective right now. Think about this: I got a pay raise to come here. I had no 401(k) plan at my last job, no travel benefits, lesser health benefits, no paid days off, and often was presented with questionable equipment. I flight instructed for a few years prior to that. I don't anticipate going to a major in the next five years, and more likely, ten, if ever.

So I tend to tread carefully before wantonly doing battle with the hand that feeds me. Don't get me wrong; I marked a "yes" on the strike vote the moment it came to my door, and under the circumstances, I'd do it again.

I do, however, weigh carefully the gravity of either decision on this TA. Comair folks would tell me to tell them to get lost and start painting my picket signs, but my knowledge of Eastern and Continental's stands in the past make me think that it's not as simple as it looks. I hate the word "deserve". What do we "deserve?" I don't know, to be honest.

I figure a good benchmark is what everybody else gets paid. So I look at everybody--including the extremes, Comair and Mesa--and see where we fit.

I see that this TA is above the middle. Now, CoEx folks will say, "But we're almost done with our contract, and it will be blah, blah, blah..." Well, folks, that ain't how it works. Promise all of us the moon and the stars, sure, but where the rubber meets the road, it doesn't always come out so well. If I had someone else's contract in my hands that was so much better, especially someone facing an alter-ego carrier for growth like we (and Mesa) did, then we could take that to the negotiating table. The only precedent that we have is concessions. We took no concessions. I don't see this as a horrible defeat.

Ivan, you seem to be in a different position than I am, and I respect the reasons for your decision. However, from what I can tell, your future is largely unchanged by the TA vote. You seem interested in leaving whether it is ratified or not. I'm in a position that must weigh what is good for the company (and I *do* want the company to do well) and what the largest slice of that pie is that I have access to. I have no other choice.

So, like everyone, I assess the potential outcomes of voting either way and the liklihood that any of these will take place. If we vote no, will I lose my job? Probably not. Will I get much more money? A dollar? Two? Ten? The chances go down exponentially every time I do the math. What will I lose in six months at our current rate? What if we lose growth to Republic? I don't have a crystal ball, but I've weighed the options and at this point have decided that the potential gains from voting it down pale in comparison to the risks I see from doing so.

Again, Ivan, I appreciate your input, and I do my best to consider it. I also envy the luxury you have in having a family to support you, a business to back up your income, and a number at an airline with good income potential down the road. I lack these things, and that largely affects my perspective.

To put the ball back in your court, if you had no business, no family, and no seniority number elsewhere, what would your backup plan be?

 

[StarChecker]

Great post, Strikefinder.

 

[Ivan Yankenoff]

Perhaps I misunderstood you, but you seemed to imply that Air Whiskey had gotten a good contract, and that we should speak to one of their pilots to see "how it's done". In fact, most people believe that Air Whiskey has a pretty good contract from what I've heard, and as I pointed out, our pay rates will be above theirs. This is not to imply superiority of our contract through and through, but to point out that in relative terms, our contract is not anywhere near the worst out there.

No, you completely misunderstood me. I don't know if it was you who said that pilot groups need to go through years of contracts to get a quality one. That's why I said look at their concessionary contract. I know quite few Air Wisky pilots and I haven't spoken to one who is even slightly happy with it.

I would stay 1. If there was a DC plan or at least higher 401(k) matching. 2. Rates within 5% of Comair's and then we were at least able to stay even with them. This TA puts us further behind at the end of Comair's contract then we are at day one of this TA going into effect. Maybe it's me but isn't there something wrong with this.

Everyone shouting this post 9-11 environment and companies can't be competitive anymore at Comair rates. Well it sure didn't affect Horizon getting the Frontier contract and their rates are almost identical to Comair's. In the scheme of running an airline, pilots are cheap. Look at it this way, when AMR and United were at there worst after 9-11, every pilot at their respective carriers could have worked for free and they still wouldn't have been profitable.

Another example, when I was going through negotiations with one of my past employers it was figured out and verified by the company that if they doubled our salary the price of each ticket would go up by $1.23 to keep the same profit margins. Obviously it didn't happen but it puts in perspective of how little affect pilots wages have on the bottom line.

Now all your other questions. I have both the positives and negatives of being furloughed so many times. Because of this I really need to start to put some cha ching into my retirement. I'm not that old (actually I have been either the youngest or second youngest in all my new hire classes) but because of the furloughs I have missed a lot of opportunities to be saving for retirement. The positives with the furloughs have been my ability to become a minimalist at the drop of a hat and time to start the business.

I have been in your position with my first airline and had to go on strike. I won't tell you exactly the sticking point on that work action because you wouldn't believe me. If I had to go back to then I would have rejected that contract. It was my first airline and I was wet behind the ears and NO ONE was hiring. I had only been there eight months and didn't have a clue what was going on.

Every one of the contracts I have been around during negotiations of which I voted for them all and the contracts I worked under after they were in effect, it was realized sometime later that management got by far the upper hand in the deal. At the time of voting on all these contracts, they were very fair and very much in line with the industry if not leading in some areas. I guarantee this will be the issue here. In my opinion, most of you are overreacting about the Republic deal. Simple scare tactic like the bs furloughs. Yes, Republic will happen but not as a non-union carrier. Why is it that only the regional managements are the only ones to use this tatic? Is it because the regionals generally have pilots who are less experienced with these bs tactics and more apt to being affected by these moves?

Oh well enough of this, good luck strike.

 

[FlyingDawg]

Ivan,

Just curious, how much did United, Air Whisky, and GLA pay toward the 401k while you were at those airlines?

 

[T-Gates]

Mesaba's stand sure isn't helping them stop Pinnacle, either, is it?

I just re-read this thread and pulled this crap out....

Did we (PCL) sign any concessionary TA to get more flying from NWA? No.....We are working on a contract signed well before 9/11 and well before Comair/AWAC/etc...!

Why do we need to be "stopped"?

Last I checked we are about to loose 40 flights/day from MEM....

Mesaba isn't loosing 1/2 that much...

Get your facts straight....

Mesaba is doing what is right for them....standing up for what they want in a contract in an enviroment where the Mesas of the world are dropping the bar lower.....

--T

 

[LearLove]

Guys, what happened to block or better? Did I miss it reading thru the TA? Just my opinion but it should be a fundamental part of a contract.

Note: This is not bashing, just a question. I can point out several cases for block or better in a contract. It really goes along way.

As far as the Jr. manning goes, I don't see why its such a big problem, just don't answer your phone or give them a cell phone as a contact number so when they try and jr man you on your day off you say "well I'd like to help you out but I'm 800 miles away from my base visiting my college buddy" or "I'm on the beach in Miami" or something. Plus an easy way to get around jr manning and have it in your contract is to put a clause in there where they must go thru the list an solicit guys to work (for priem pay) first and then go back thru the list and jr man. This way everybody knows that the company is in a jr. manning situation and dosen't answer the phone if they don't want to work.

Like all contract talks it boils down to a give and take deal. IE the company gives more pay and takes something like work rules from the pilots in return or visa versa. In ref. to the above JR. manning give them that and get block or better in return. But in this case you get block or better plus a way to control the jr manning situation.