murfdawg998
CHAMP, HERE!!!
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Chataqua 2 yr upgrade?
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P38JLightning
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professional response
aewannabe,
yeah I try to keep it professional, but just like the immature fist pumping 22 year olds looking at 6 month upgrade times that think growth by any means necessary is cool, I too am biased by my personal viewpoint and occasionaly let emotions seep into what should be (like caveman's) more articulate viewpoints.
So let me put it like this. You remember what Republic was to you, right? And the issue isn't even union v/s non-union, because an alter ego carrier that exists for the main purpose of gutting your leverage, serving as an outsource provider of your jobs and a perpetual force to drive down your compensation to the joy of some dirt bag management team is the same wether union or not. So Republic was a major threat to you. Had you not gotten that flying on your list, they would soon be hiring EMB-170 captains off the street and maybe even diverting your orders and options of 145's there as well, especialy if you didn't "play ball".
Well what Republic was to you guys, you are to us. You have got to see that. Now I blame us more than I blame you, because we have the power to take back all of that flying, but its gonna cost us and so far few want to pay. I think we will have to, because in the end, these fantasy 120/hr RJ pay rates with 10% B funds simply won't be here down the road. Industry forces, like the Mesa and Wexford/Republic air groups will force that, so we might as well get something for it, namely jobs and the ability to fight another day.
That's what you guys did, and you (and only you) are better for it. We should do the same, and we are weighing our options as we speak. Step one will be to stop your DCI growth in its tracks. Step two will be to take the flying for ourselves as fast as possible, but probably no sooner than the expiration of your contract with DAL, although we could take it much faster but will have to wait for DAL to get its house in order first so they can take over the financing (their only obligation to CHQ). Its an internal struggle for us, nothing more or less. We have to decide how much (and if) we are willing to give up to achieve real job protection. If we are sucessful though, we hope you won't take it personaly, as we would just be doing what you did when you had the chance.
And no, I wasn't at your MEC meetings, but my MEC leaders were at the joint non ALPA DCI meetings called to discuss solidarity and how not letting managements have the upper hand on pilot labor was paramount. Your MEC was all onboard, as was SkyWest's "pilot leadership". Until management promised the low bidder growth, and now here we are. My MEC remembers that, and it will be one of a million other things we must factor into our decision on how agressively we want to protect our jobs.
I agree we should be more professional towards eachother. We should stop calling you whores, and you should stop bragging about your fast upgrades at our expense. Our orders and options have been cancelled and yours filled. You will realize your dream of getting on with a major/LCC a lot faster than any Comair pilot, that we also realize, so good for you. Just please don't have any hard feelings if we are the "go to carrier" at some point again, because its just business. The purpose of holding up the bar at great expense to ourselves should not be to provide a comfortable "Comair minus" point where other pilot groups can underbid us, and that's what its become. Look for that to change.
aewannabe,
yeah I try to keep it professional, but just like the immature fist pumping 22 year olds looking at 6 month upgrade times that think growth by any means necessary is cool, I too am biased by my personal viewpoint and occasionaly let emotions seep into what should be (like caveman's) more articulate viewpoints.
So let me put it like this. You remember what Republic was to you, right? And the issue isn't even union v/s non-union, because an alter ego carrier that exists for the main purpose of gutting your leverage, serving as an outsource provider of your jobs and a perpetual force to drive down your compensation to the joy of some dirt bag management team is the same wether union or not. So Republic was a major threat to you. Had you not gotten that flying on your list, they would soon be hiring EMB-170 captains off the street and maybe even diverting your orders and options of 145's there as well, especialy if you didn't "play ball".
Well what Republic was to you guys, you are to us. You have got to see that. Now I blame us more than I blame you, because we have the power to take back all of that flying, but its gonna cost us and so far few want to pay. I think we will have to, because in the end, these fantasy 120/hr RJ pay rates with 10% B funds simply won't be here down the road. Industry forces, like the Mesa and Wexford/Republic air groups will force that, so we might as well get something for it, namely jobs and the ability to fight another day.
That's what you guys did, and you (and only you) are better for it. We should do the same, and we are weighing our options as we speak. Step one will be to stop your DCI growth in its tracks. Step two will be to take the flying for ourselves as fast as possible, but probably no sooner than the expiration of your contract with DAL, although we could take it much faster but will have to wait for DAL to get its house in order first so they can take over the financing (their only obligation to CHQ). Its an internal struggle for us, nothing more or less. We have to decide how much (and if) we are willing to give up to achieve real job protection. If we are sucessful though, we hope you won't take it personaly, as we would just be doing what you did when you had the chance.
And no, I wasn't at your MEC meetings, but my MEC leaders were at the joint non ALPA DCI meetings called to discuss solidarity and how not letting managements have the upper hand on pilot labor was paramount. Your MEC was all onboard, as was SkyWest's "pilot leadership". Until management promised the low bidder growth, and now here we are. My MEC remembers that, and it will be one of a million other things we must factor into our decision on how agressively we want to protect our jobs.
I agree we should be more professional towards eachother. We should stop calling you whores, and you should stop bragging about your fast upgrades at our expense. Our orders and options have been cancelled and yours filled. You will realize your dream of getting on with a major/LCC a lot faster than any Comair pilot, that we also realize, so good for you. Just please don't have any hard feelings if we are the "go to carrier" at some point again, because its just business. The purpose of holding up the bar at great expense to ourselves should not be to provide a comfortable "Comair minus" point where other pilot groups can underbid us, and that's what its become. Look for that to change.
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I have no doubt how it looks from there with us growing and your upgrades/hiring stopping. Just a point about Republic. Republic was NOT initially created to provide another certificate to operate 170s. Rather, it was created to operate 145s after we rejected UALPA's J4J. We immediately saw the diversion of airframes that had been on order at CHQ to Republic, which would have had lower pay rates than our OLD contract, BTW. 170s were never discussed until after our new contract.P38JLightning said:
[/QUOTE]That's what you guys did, and you (and only you) are better for it. We should do the same, and we are weighing our options as we speak. Step one will be to stop your DCI growth in its tracks. Step two will be to take the flying for ourselves as fast as possible, but probably no sooner than the expiration of your contract with DAL, although we could take it much faster but will have to wait for DAL to get its house in order first so they can take over the financing (their only obligation to CHQ). Its an internal struggle for us, nothing more or less. We have to decide how much (and if) we are willing to give up to achieve real job protection. If we are sucessful though, we hope you won't take it personaly, as we would just be doing what you did when you had the chance.
[/QUOTE]
I won't take anything personally, although I will raise my eyebrows if you have to stoop to lower rates than our current ones to reclaim the flying. Remember, although the more emotional people have yelled and screamed, our rates are higher than our old ones on all seats/equipment/longevities, across the board. That is NOT a concessionary agreement. If Delta ever gets its house in order I doubt you'll see much growth here after the latest RFP anyway; it's already been pointed out that your revenue-sharing vs. our fee-for-departure makes ma DL more money on high-yield routes. So, what concessions are you willing to make to reclaim this growth?
[/QUOTE]And no, I wasn't at your MEC meetings, but my MEC leaders were at the joint non ALPA DCI meetings called to discuss solidarity and how not letting managements have the upper hand on pilot labor was paramount. Your MEC was all onboard, as was SkyWest's "pilot leadership". Until management promised the low bidder growth, and now here we are. My MEC remembers that, and it will be one of a million other things we must factor into our decision on how agressively we want protect our jobs.
[/QUOTE]
While my MEC may have been on board at these conferences, there's one basic problem here. How are they going to promise we'll hold out for a certain wage amount when they were telling my pilot group there wasn't enough to support the OLD T/A rates? It's disappointing to hear them making promises to your MEC they couldn't keep, especially since they were doing anything but promising Comair+ rates to me. And again, management never promised anybody "low-bidder" or any other growth. That's an urban myth that is getting really old, frankly. The only promise we got from management was the sending of airplanes to Republic as quickly as possible since we were being intransigent on the whole J4J issue.
[/QUOTE]I agree we should be more professional towards eachother. We should stop calling you whores, and you should stop bragging about your fast upgrades at our expense. Our orders and options have been cancelled and yours filled. You will realize your dream of getting on with a major/LCC a lot faster than any Comair pilot, that we also realize, so good for you. Just please don't have any hard feelings if we are the "go to carrier" at some point again, because its just business. The purpose of holding up the bar at great expense to ourselves should not be to provide a comfortable "Comair minus" point where opther pilot groups can underbid us, and that's what its become. Look for that to change.[/QUOTE]
As I said in my last post, I fully agree that bragging about our current quick upgrade is uncalled for. It's largely due to the hiring gap, and will start to go back up again fairly quickly. I won't comment on the whole "getting to an LCC/Major" issue, since I happen to agree with those who say there's a helluva lot more guys with PIC than there are jobs at SW, Airtran, etc. anytime soon. No hard feeling here if/ when the pendulum swings and you become Ma Delta's favorites again, but I still think you're misguided in the believe that "Comair -" is a goal for my pilot group or anyone else.
Stick Man
its a JEEP thing...Y W U!
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2003
- Posts
- 191
Hey P38
You post : Aircraft Experience: E120 CL65 PA44 C172 J3
Question - How did you upgrade from the PA44 to a E120. Why didn't you ever fly a Navajo or King Air inbetween those two a/c types?
Answer - Because at the time you were flying semen-holes, you were applying at where-ever you are right now, or where-ever you went to fly jungle props. You probably even applied at other places too. BUT, you were hired by your current employer, so you went there because of one or two reasons.
Those reasons being that no one else hired you at that time or because you thought that where you went was the best choice over the others that hired you.
In other words - happenstance. Why do you blame others for the same. I could have gone to MESA, ASA or stay flying 135 and gone onto fly Lears and Falcons. But I didn't because I needed a better QOL. Not pay - just QOL. I have that now, so why do you slander me or speak against my actions.
Lastly, what do I do to resolve the issue? Should I quit CHQ and let my family suffer? Should I leave aviation so that you have a better shot, over me, at a major in 5 years?
Son, you have anger issues. And you also need to learn to fight better battles. Life is too important.
You post : Aircraft Experience: E120 CL65 PA44 C172 J3
Question - How did you upgrade from the PA44 to a E120. Why didn't you ever fly a Navajo or King Air inbetween those two a/c types?
Answer - Because at the time you were flying semen-holes, you were applying at where-ever you are right now, or where-ever you went to fly jungle props. You probably even applied at other places too. BUT, you were hired by your current employer, so you went there because of one or two reasons.
Those reasons being that no one else hired you at that time or because you thought that where you went was the best choice over the others that hired you.
In other words - happenstance. Why do you blame others for the same. I could have gone to MESA, ASA or stay flying 135 and gone onto fly Lears and Falcons. But I didn't because I needed a better QOL. Not pay - just QOL. I have that now, so why do you slander me or speak against my actions.
Lastly, what do I do to resolve the issue? Should I quit CHQ and let my family suffer? Should I leave aviation so that you have a better shot, over me, at a major in 5 years?
Son, you have anger issues. And you also need to learn to fight better battles. Life is too important.
P38JLightning
Well Endowed Member
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2001
- Posts
- 223
stickman...
Firsf off, I agree with you on almost everything. I don't fault any Chautauqua pilot for anything other than some arrogant attitudes based on phenominal growth and rapid upgrades, but so what.
I thought you should have stuck it out for an industry leading contract that's all. If you did your company would still have been very profitable, but you probably wouldn't have gotten so much growth. I think you know this as did your MEC and BB certainly knew it.
What you don't see yet, through the haze of rapid upgrade time and the industry leading resume fodder that comes with it, is that mentality is a cancer on our profession. Good for you, for now, but bad for us all in the end. If we underbid you and secured all DCI flying permanantly, stopping your growth and causing hundreds of furloughs and downgrades would that be cool? Just 'bidness'?
What if we signed a 20 year contract with 0.1% annual raises. That way we could say we didn't take concessions, got higher rates, improved on scope and got the raises that come from rapid upgrades.
So to answer your question, no I don't expect you to quit to help me out. But you've got to realize that outsourcing pilot labor is horrible for the profession, and the more outsourcing to more and more "airlines" flying bigger and bigger equipment for more and more airlines is not a good thing, and it needs to be fixed.
Firsf off, I agree with you on almost everything. I don't fault any Chautauqua pilot for anything other than some arrogant attitudes based on phenominal growth and rapid upgrades, but so what.
I thought you should have stuck it out for an industry leading contract that's all. If you did your company would still have been very profitable, but you probably wouldn't have gotten so much growth. I think you know this as did your MEC and BB certainly knew it.
What you don't see yet, through the haze of rapid upgrade time and the industry leading resume fodder that comes with it, is that mentality is a cancer on our profession. Good for you, for now, but bad for us all in the end. If we underbid you and secured all DCI flying permanantly, stopping your growth and causing hundreds of furloughs and downgrades would that be cool? Just 'bidness'?
What if we signed a 20 year contract with 0.1% annual raises. That way we could say we didn't take concessions, got higher rates, improved on scope and got the raises that come from rapid upgrades.
So to answer your question, no I don't expect you to quit to help me out. But you've got to realize that outsourcing pilot labor is horrible for the profession, and the more outsourcing to more and more "airlines" flying bigger and bigger equipment for more and more airlines is not a good thing, and it needs to be fixed.
nimtz
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2001
- Posts
- 1,442
P38JLightning said:
MAn o Man where have you been???? No one from Comair should really use the word outsourcing. How did you think your company started my friend? And seeing that DAL owns a large amount of RJET, I would not really call us an outsourced labor group. We are no different than you were 5 years ago. YOUR company made the choice to sell to DAL. Maybe if that choice were different, you may have been the biggest regional with many different code shares. And yes the real problem is with outsourcing. It is outsourcing mainline routes and jobs to Comair, CHQ, ASA, and every other regional airline. I personally cringe at all the CHQ growth because it means less or no jobs for me at the mainline level. The enemy will all regional pilots should be with the mainline management group, not each other. Go ask a furloughed mainline pilot how he or she feels about mainline routes going to regionals. They think you and I are the enemy is some respects.
I would have loved to have gotten Comair PAY +10% but it would, in my view, come at a cost in other ways. Someone said it before. The 1.5 year upgrade is not going to last very long. In fact, When, not if Airways goes away, we may see upgrade go away for a while. But even if they survive, upgrade time will go back up to 4-5 years here.
The cancer P38 is all the major airlines who refuse to accept the fact that times have changed for good. Fuel cost, security cost, no business traveler, LLC's, high labor costs. and low ticket costs are killing them. And you know what, as soon as CHQ votes for higher wages in a few years, we may loose some flying. Someone will be right behind us to do it cheaper. You want to turn this job(regional Pilot) into a career. Everyone wants high pay great benefits, and so on, but fail to realize the cost structure of a regional today does not support most of it.
TO me, the only way this is going to be "fixed" is when some of this flying returns to the majors and they start to hire again. P38 YOU are as big an outsourcer as I am and never forget that!!!!!!!!!
P38JLightning
Well Endowed Member
- Joined
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- Posts
- 223
close, but no cigar
>>>Everyone wants high pay great benefits, and so on, but fail to realize the cost structure of a regional today does not support most of it.
TO me, the only way this is going to be "fixed" is when some of this flying returns to the majors and they start to hire again. P38 YOU are as big an outsourcer as I am and never forget that!!!!!!!!!
Wrong. The cost structure of a regional certainly does support it, but the regional managers squeal like stuck pigs when you even suggest they might have to run an airline at less than a 20-30% profit margin. Thats my point. We buy off on this whole 3/5 of an airline pilot crap and management laughs all the way to the bank.
As for us being outsourcers, wrong again. We are Delta. No, we're not the Delta pilot group (though supposedly that's being worked on) but we are Delta. Just like Song is Delta, Express is/was Delta, DGS is Delta, etc. You are right though, we were the same 5 years ago. But times have changed. IF Delta buys 51% of you or more, and IF you are ALPA, and IF you get the highest cost pilot contract, then you will always be what's wrong with this profession. Outsourcing pilot supply houses providing cut throat labor for every airline under the sun. Big difference between that and a wholly owned sub.
Interesting that you do recognise the bigger you get the less good jobs are out there, yet you want the growth to pad your resume with PIC time so you personaly can be better positioned to move on, so you'll work for less to get growth.
Well as long as you get to SWA or JB that's all that matters I guess.
>>>Everyone wants high pay great benefits, and so on, but fail to realize the cost structure of a regional today does not support most of it.
TO me, the only way this is going to be "fixed" is when some of this flying returns to the majors and they start to hire again. P38 YOU are as big an outsourcer as I am and never forget that!!!!!!!!!
Wrong. The cost structure of a regional certainly does support it, but the regional managers squeal like stuck pigs when you even suggest they might have to run an airline at less than a 20-30% profit margin. Thats my point. We buy off on this whole 3/5 of an airline pilot crap and management laughs all the way to the bank.
As for us being outsourcers, wrong again. We are Delta. No, we're not the Delta pilot group (though supposedly that's being worked on) but we are Delta. Just like Song is Delta, Express is/was Delta, DGS is Delta, etc. You are right though, we were the same 5 years ago. But times have changed. IF Delta buys 51% of you or more, and IF you are ALPA, and IF you get the highest cost pilot contract, then you will always be what's wrong with this profession. Outsourcing pilot supply houses providing cut throat labor for every airline under the sun. Big difference between that and a wholly owned sub.
Interesting that you do recognise the bigger you get the less good jobs are out there, yet you want the growth to pad your resume with PIC time so you personaly can be better positioned to move on, so you'll work for less to get growth.
Well as long as you get to SWA or JB that's all that matters I guess.
I don't need any growth to pad anything. You know what the problem with some of you at wholly owned carriers? You think you are better than everyone else. You look down on anyone who isn't owned 51% by Delta. What is going to happen to you when DAL sells you off?? Don't think for a second that they won't. What will you do then?? Then you will have to spend all your time defending being a contract carrier, just like you were 5 years ago. BTW you are NOT Delta!! You are Comair. When Republic starts up I am not Republic, I am CHQ. I matters not who owns you but who you fly for. If you were Delta, you would have a nice little flow though over to mainline. And most pilots at Delta I know do not think you are part of mainline either. You are just another company owned by the parent.
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