Chataqua 2 yr upgrade?

[GFunk20]

At CHQ, it's 28 for the first six months and 54 for the second six months. That average out to 41/hour.

Aceshigh

I'm confused? We're talking hourly pay here right? I don't recall seeing a raise after six months. Probation is one year.

 

[jumppilot]

I'm confused? We're talking hourly pay here right? I don't recall seeing a raise after six months. Probation is one year.

He's refering to their two year upgrade...

1.5 years on FO pay at 28 (second year) dollars an hour
.5 years on Capt pay at 54/hr

= 41 dollars / hour 2nd year.

 

[ERJDRVR]

Ok, a couple questions for ALL you COMAIR guys?

1) Why is it STEALING flying when we pick up a route from Delta?

2) Why is that not stealing when Comair picks up that route?

- Keep in mind we are also partially owned by Delta.

Anyone? Anyone?

1) Why are we whores? Because we diversify our flying between 4 majors? OR is it because we couldn't reach a INDUSTRY LEADING contract in a post 9/11 enviroment in the face of a alter ego being started?


Alright boys from Comair..... Answer away....

 

[Lequip]

They wont have an answer for your ERJ because it is all SOUR GRAPES on their part. They sit in the right seat and are nothing but jealous. They brag because they make a few more $$ per hours as FO's but you don't think they would rather be a 2 year Captain making 50K+. They will come back with blah. blah. blah. blah, but it's NOTHING BUT SOUR GRAPES AND JEALOUSY! Congrats on your quick upgrade ERJ!

 

[Axel]

An equal opportunity observation

Never argue with a fool; a bystander may not be able to tell the difference.

 

[Caveman]

This my contract is better than your contract stuff is getting old. My company happens to have a good one. It wasn’t luck. We worked for it. We also decided to take a stand and refuse to roll over for unneeded concessions. Unfortunately it has become a glass ceiling because several airlines agreed to concessions or lesser contracts. The economy, 9/11, a desire for growth over compensation, unprofitable companies, and fear are all contributing factors.


Nobody is a whore or scab or anything else unholy just because they happen to work for a particular company and I’m not any better because I happen to work for another.

Having said that, I think that some pilots are oblivious to the implications that their concessionary contracts have on the rest of the industry. Like it or not this is a pattern bargaining industry. It’s in all of our best interests to gain as much as we can when times are good and equally as important to minimize backsliding when business is down. If I have a criticism of some of my fellow pilot groups it’s that they gave back recent gains when they really didn’t have to or that they settled for less than was necessary. Maybe it wasn’t possible in this economy to get CMR plus 5%, but why couldn’t you get about the same as CMR? It didn’t have to be exactly the same, but some of you weren’t even close. What really hurt were the folks that agreed to concessions. All you had to do was hold the line. While I’m not privy to all the financial data my instincts tell me that most of you were bluffed into believing that concessions were necessary. I’m not telling anybody that they always have to hold out to beat the best contract plus 1%. Sometimes economics are working against you, but the fact is most of us in direct competition fly similar equipment in a similar structure and our respective companies are all about the same. So why aren’t we all compensated roughly the same. If CMR can pay us what they do and make money why can’t (fill in your favorite airline here)?


Lest anyone think I’m trying to portray CMR pilots as Guardians of the Gate, I’m not. We got what we got because our timing was good and we stood our ground. There wasn’t any higher motive like protecting the industry. It was self preservation, pure and simple. I’m just suggesting that some pilot groups rolled over a little too easy. The pilots at those companies aren’t scum or dirtbags. They just got suckered into believing that was the best they could do. There were a lot of folks saying that CMR could have done better than we did. Next time look around a little bit before you agree to a new contract or concessions. Ask yourself if this is a competitive compensation package or is it a contract that will leave you significantly short of the current benchmark contract. If you decide that it comes up short ask yourself if your company is in a financial situation drastic enough to justify you accepting less than the industry norm. If that’s the case, then so be it. Do what you have to do. My opinion is that was not the case for most of you. Some of you were out-negotiated. Some of you were just fearful.


To those of you that think you are better than another pilot just because you have a better contract, get over it. Walk a mile in another man’s shoes before you condemn them. Jobs are scarce and some of us didn’t get picked up by our first choice. The bills have to get paid and most of us have chosen this as our profession. I don’t think anybody willingly took a substandard job when they had other choices. Short of leaving the industry, which most of us aren’t willing to do, it is what it is. To those of you that have particularly substandard contracts don’t try to justify them because you can’t. You can, however, work diligently to make them better and you don’t have to take any crap from other pilots either.


Anybody that’s been around more than one annual recurrent ought to know that the way things are now is not the way they will be next year. In my short time in the industry I’ve seen my company have explosive growth and now zero growth. As recently as a year a go you could upgrade at CMR with 2 years on property, now it’s more like 5. It’ll change again and it will also change at other companies too. I wouldn’t go around backslapping each other over stuff you have no control over. You bid and you either get it or you don’t. That’s about the extant of your control over upgrades.


All of us should stop belittling each other for BS reasons. Most of us are honest and decent folks just trying to raise our families and make a living. Everybody try to do better the next time and realize that your company isn’t operating in a vacuum. What you agree to will affect others and if it is substandard it will eventually come back around to bite you.


One last thing, keep this crap out of the jumpseat. Just give the guy a ride and talk about baseball or something else non-controversial.

 

[P38JLightning]

bingo

He's refering to their two year upgrade...

1.5 years on FO pay at 28 (second year) dollars an hour
.5 years on Capt pay at 54/hr

= 41 dollars / hour 2nd year.


Hence the terms PFG and PFU (pay for growth and upgrades)

That's why people think you're whores. Now because your rates are less, but because you made sure you rates were less so you could get so much growth so you could upgrade faster, get your "raise" and resume time and go to SWA, JetBlue, AirTran, etc.

What would you do if Comair voted in 53/hr rates and the next day Delta said we would get all future growth and they would begin transfering CHQ planes (which Delta has the ability to do, they just have to get CHQ out of the leases if CHQ wants) to Comair and you were faced with 10 year upgrades and possibly furloughs? We all know you would bid 49/hr hoping to get it back.

We fight to keep the standards high, you dip a comfortable margin below that and take our growth (and by our growth I'm taliking about our orders and options that have been cancelled to make room for your growth).

So keep on lowballing to be managements outsource provider of choice. I'm sure there will always be somone higher than you who you can go after with your cutthroat rates to get your resume time.

 

[Lequip]

Looks like another bitter hightime CRJ FO making industry leading FO pay. Enjoy that top FO pay for a LONG TIME to come. Again, nothing but sour grapes.

 

[aewanabe]

He's refering to their two year upgrade...

1.5 years on FO pay at 28 (second year) dollars an hour
.5 years on Capt pay at 54/hr

= 41 dollars / hour 2nd year.


Hence the terms PFG and PFU (pay for growth and upgrades)

That's why people think you're whores. Now because your rates are less, but because you made sure you rates were less so you could get so much growth so you could upgrade faster, get your "raise" and resume time and go to SWA, JetBlue, AirTran, etc.

What would you do if Comair voted in 53/hr rates and the next day Delta said we would get all future growth and they would begin transfering CHQ planes (which Delta has the ability to do, they just have to get CHQ out of the leases if CHQ wants) to Comair and you were faced with 10 year upgrades and possibly furloughs? We all know you would bid 49/hr hoping to get it back.

Your response is one of the more professional ones referring to my pilot group as whores, so AGAIN, wasting my breath I'm sure, I'll ask for some answers in return.

Where has ANY CHQ pilot said we "took lower rates for growth". EVER? Which of you Comair or XJET pilots were sitting in on our MEC road shows with the T/A, and heard them tell us "hey guys, the payrates kinda suck but you'll get all sorts of new DL and UA and everyone else's flying...." ? That's right, NOONE, because that was never the point. Yet again, our issues were: more pay than our crappy original contract, plus more than our crappy first T/A. Scope to stop the company from transferring E145 routes and orders to non-union Republic. Improvements in over-all QOL. We acheived all three of those goals; unfortunately the negotiating capital we expended on the last 2 (Especially scope) limited our ability to beat the company down on payrates.

You guys are like a bunch of flawed Jesuits "well, you got our growth, and you make less than me, therefore you must have taken less money knowing you'd get my growth."

And I fully agree with Caveman that no-one here should be bragging about the upgrade time... It's entirely a matter of being in the right place at the right time. In fact, the current upgrade time of 1.5 years is a fluke, based on the fact that NOONE WAS HIRED at CHQ between 8/01 and 10/02. So six months ago the upgrade time was 2.5-3 years (guys hired in early-to-mid 2001), now it just happens to have hit the most recent hiring glut that started in 11/02. That number will start increasing as upgrades work their way through the '03 hires... guys hired in late '03 and later should really be expecting a 3-5 year upgrade based on our current growth projections.

 

[Strikefinder]

The question becomes what we could reasonably expect at Chautauqua. There's a lot of debate as to whether we could have gotten more if we held out, and the real answer is that we'll never know.

We had already turned down one cotract nearly two years prior to signing the one we finally accepted. We made a lot of progress on work rules, but the pay actually slipped. We had little reason to believe that we would be able to improve these pay rates had we held out longer (that logic did not apply to the first contract we turned down, after all).

Secondly, it's insane to believe that Chautauqua pilots were immune to the same "lowballing" that took place throughout the industry. Mesa, PSA, Allegheny, Piedmont, SkyWest, Shuttle America, Air Wisconsin, and Atlantic Coast (the latter of which never actually took concessions) were all facing concessionary contracts when we finished ours up. I understand those with contracts negotiated with better, say, pay rates than our own would be frustrated by anybody who accepts a cent lower than their own, but it was a difficult sell to both the company, and, more importantly, the folks at the NMB, that we deserve X amount of money when only one or two regional carriers make that amount. Remember, we can't be released for self-help (strike) until the NMB believes that we've negotiated in good faith (which can be translated to them believing that we're asking for what *they* think is reasonable).

Furthermore, we were faced with Republic Airlines as a possible alter ego carrier. We were all genuinely concerned that had Wexford been able to raise this SOB up before the NMB gave us the nod to start self-help, we'd all be done for. You think competing with our current pay rates is bad? What if they'd have moved all the flying to Republic for five or six bucks less an hour than what we signed, even lower than our old contract? Think it can't be done? Read your history books, people, and concentrate heavily on Frank Lorenzo.

As it's all turned out, that's not what would have likely happened. However, I think it's unreasonable to Monday-morning quarterback this one now. At the time we signed a contract, we had every reason to believe that's what was going on, and save for the holdups that Republic is having with the FAA, it very well might have.

Finally, we all looked at negotiating for another year (and pay rates that used to be lower than everybody), and said that we'd rather cut our losses and make more money for this contract and have another go at it in better times. In other words, if I sign a better contract now that gives me a $5 raise, in six months I'll make about $2400 more (80/hour average month x $5 x 6 months). If I wait until six months until I sign the contract and get another $2.50 an hour, it would take me a year to make up for the money I didn't get during the first six months. And that was *if* we managed to get another $2.50 an hour. If we could only negotiate half that, our contract would be nearly expired before we'd even break even!

All in all, I don't think it's fair to make the "you'll work for half what I do" argument. Of course I won't. The question becomes, again, what do I reasonably think I could get? I'm not gambling my job (with somewhat poor odds) so I can make a dollar or two more an hour. This is not the same as being asked to work for twenty or thirty dollars less an hour than a similarly-qualified collegue. Stop making such a ridiculous comparison.

I'm certain that growth potential was something that ran through people's heads. It wasn't what I based my decision on, though. I don't have any false ideas about leaving this place--in fact, I very well might work right here for the rest of my career, depending on what happens at the majors. I'm not interested in piling on my "1000 hours PIC" for nearly any reason whatsoever. I think there are a lot of people at Chautauqua who are in the same boat--contrary to popular belief, we're not all a bunch of "300 hour academy graduates" (though there are a number of those, and just about every one of them I know does just fine). As far as I'm concerned, it's a pretty nice place to work, and I'm sorry there is so much animosity out there. It certainly doesn't go both ways. ComAir folks are always welcome in my jumpseat, and for the many folks at ComAir who have extended the same courtesy, I thank you.

Finally, I did just get my hat yesterday, for all of those people who are bent out of shape that I didn't have mine on for the past few weeks. I'm sorry I wasn't able to alter the space-time continuum to look as good as you do. I promise that I'll wear mine, with my pressed shirt, shined shoes, and other uniform necessities like I always have from here on out!

 

[murfdawg998]

hey be200 pilot, is that you in that picture?!

 

[P38JLightning]

professional response

aewannabe,

yeah I try to keep it professional, but just like the immature fist pumping 22 year olds looking at 6 month upgrade times that think growth by any means necessary is cool, I too am biased by my personal viewpoint and occasionaly let emotions seep into what should be (like caveman's) more articulate viewpoints.

So let me put it like this. You remember what Republic was to you, right? And the issue isn't even union v/s non-union, because an alter ego carrier that exists for the main purpose of gutting your leverage, serving as an outsource provider of your jobs and a perpetual force to drive down your compensation to the joy of some dirt bag management team is the same wether union or not. So Republic was a major threat to you. Had you not gotten that flying on your list, they would soon be hiring EMB-170 captains off the street and maybe even diverting your orders and options of 145's there as well, especialy if you didn't "play ball".

Well what Republic was to you guys, you are to us. You have got to see that. Now I blame us more than I blame you, because we have the power to take back all of that flying, but its gonna cost us and so far few want to pay. I think we will have to, because in the end, these fantasy 120/hr RJ pay rates with 10% B funds simply won't be here down the road. Industry forces, like the Mesa and Wexford/Republic air groups will force that, so we might as well get something for it, namely jobs and the ability to fight another day.

That's what you guys did, and you (and only you) are better for it. We should do the same, and we are weighing our options as we speak. Step one will be to stop your DCI growth in its tracks. Step two will be to take the flying for ourselves as fast as possible, but probably no sooner than the expiration of your contract with DAL, although we could take it much faster but will have to wait for DAL to get its house in order first so they can take over the financing (their only obligation to CHQ). Its an internal struggle for us, nothing more or less. We have to decide how much (and if) we are willing to give up to achieve real job protection. If we are sucessful though, we hope you won't take it personaly, as we would just be doing what you did when you had the chance.

And no, I wasn't at your MEC meetings, but my MEC leaders were at the joint non ALPA DCI meetings called to discuss solidarity and how not letting managements have the upper hand on pilot labor was paramount. Your MEC was all onboard, as was SkyWest's "pilot leadership". Until management promised the low bidder growth, and now here we are. My MEC remembers that, and it will be one of a million other things we must factor into our decision on how agressively we want to protect our jobs.

I agree we should be more professional towards eachother. We should stop calling you whores, and you should stop bragging about your fast upgrades at our expense. Our orders and options have been cancelled and yours filled. You will realize your dream of getting on with a major/LCC a lot faster than any Comair pilot, that we also realize, so good for you. Just please don't have any hard feelings if we are the "go to carrier" at some point again, because its just business. The purpose of holding up the bar at great expense to ourselves should not be to provide a comfortable "Comair minus" point where other pilot groups can underbid us, and that's what its become. Look for that to change.

 

[aewanabe]

aewannabe,


So let me put it like this. You remember what Republic was to you, right? And the issue isn't even union v/s non-union, because an alter ego carrier that exists for the main purpose of gutting your leverage, serving as an outsource provider of your jobs and a perpetual force to drive down your compensation to the joy of some dirt bag management team is the same wether union or not. So Republic was a major threat to you. Had you not gotten that flying on your list, they would soon be hiring EMB-170 captains off the street and maybe even diverting your orders and options of 145's there as well, especialy if you didn't "play ball".

Well what Republic was to you guys, you are to us. You have got to see that. Now I blame us more than I blame you, because we have the power to take back all of that flying, but its gonna cost us and so far few want to pay. I think we will have to, because in the end, these fantasy 120/hr RJ pay rates with 10% B funds simply won't be here down the road. Industry forces, like the Mesa and Wexford/Republic air groups will force that, so we might as well get something for it, namely jobs and the ability to fight another day.

I have no doubt how it looks from there with us growing and your upgrades/hiring stopping. Just a point about Republic. Republic was NOT initially created to provide another certificate to operate 170s. Rather, it was created to operate 145s after we rejected UALPA's J4J. We immediately saw the diversion of airframes that had been on order at CHQ to Republic, which would have had lower pay rates than our OLD contract, BTW. 170s were never discussed until after our new contract.

[/QUOTE]That's what you guys did, and you (and only you) are better for it. We should do the same, and we are weighing our options as we speak. Step one will be to stop your DCI growth in its tracks. Step two will be to take the flying for ourselves as fast as possible, but probably no sooner than the expiration of your contract with DAL, although we could take it much faster but will have to wait for DAL to get its house in order first so they can take over the financing (their only obligation to CHQ). Its an internal struggle for us, nothing more or less. We have to decide how much (and if) we are willing to give up to achieve real job protection. If we are sucessful though, we hope you won't take it personaly, as we would just be doing what you did when you had the chance.
[/QUOTE]
I won't take anything personally, although I will raise my eyebrows if you have to stoop to lower rates than our current ones to reclaim the flying. Remember, although the more emotional people have yelled and screamed, our rates are higher than our old ones on all seats/equipment/longevities, across the board. That is NOT a concessionary agreement. If Delta ever gets its house in order I doubt you'll see much growth here after the latest RFP anyway; it's already been pointed out that your revenue-sharing vs. our fee-for-departure makes ma DL more money on high-yield routes. So, what concessions are you willing to make to reclaim this growth?

[/QUOTE]And no, I wasn't at your MEC meetings, but my MEC leaders were at the joint non ALPA DCI meetings called to discuss solidarity and how not letting managements have the upper hand on pilot labor was paramount. Your MEC was all onboard, as was SkyWest's "pilot leadership". Until management promised the low bidder growth, and now here we are. My MEC remembers that, and it will be one of a million other things we must factor into our decision on how agressively we want protect our jobs.
[/QUOTE]
While my MEC may have been on board at these conferences, there's one basic problem here. How are they going to promise we'll hold out for a certain wage amount when they were telling my pilot group there wasn't enough to support the OLD T/A rates? It's disappointing to hear them making promises to your MEC they couldn't keep, especially since they were doing anything but promising Comair+ rates to me. And again, management never promised anybody "low-bidder" or any other growth. That's an urban myth that is getting really old, frankly. The only promise we got from management was the sending of airplanes to Republic as quickly as possible since we were being intransigent on the whole J4J issue.

[/QUOTE]I agree we should be more professional towards eachother. We should stop calling you whores, and you should stop bragging about your fast upgrades at our expense. Our orders and options have been cancelled and yours filled. You will realize your dream of getting on with a major/LCC a lot faster than any Comair pilot, that we also realize, so good for you. Just please don't have any hard feelings if we are the "go to carrier" at some point again, because its just business. The purpose of holding up the bar at great expense to ourselves should not be to provide a comfortable "Comair minus" point where opther pilot groups can underbid us, and that's what its become. Look for that to change.[/QUOTE]
As I said in my last post, I fully agree that bragging about our current quick upgrade is uncalled for. It's largely due to the hiring gap, and will start to go back up again fairly quickly. I won't comment on the whole "getting to an LCC/Major" issue, since I happen to agree with those who say there's a helluva lot more guys with PIC than there are jobs at SW, Airtran, etc. anytime soon. No hard feeling here if/ when the pendulum swings and you become Ma Delta's favorites again, but I still think you're misguided in the believe that "Comair -" is a goal for my pilot group or anyone else.

 

[Stick Man]

Hey P38

You post : Aircraft Experience: E120 CL65 PA44 C172 J3

Question - How did you upgrade from the PA44 to a E120. Why didn't you ever fly a Navajo or King Air inbetween those two a/c types?

Answer - Because at the time you were flying semen-holes, you were applying at where-ever you are right now, or where-ever you went to fly jungle props. You probably even applied at other places too. BUT, you were hired by your current employer, so you went there because of one or two reasons.

Those reasons being that no one else hired you at that time or because you thought that where you went was the best choice over the others that hired you.

In other words - happenstance. Why do you blame others for the same. I could have gone to MESA, ASA or stay flying 135 and gone onto fly Lears and Falcons. But I didn't because I needed a better QOL. Not pay - just QOL. I have that now, so why do you slander me or speak against my actions.

Lastly, what do I do to resolve the issue? Should I quit CHQ and let my family suffer? Should I leave aviation so that you have a better shot, over me, at a major in 5 years?

Son, you have anger issues. And you also need to learn to fight better battles. Life is too important.

 

[P38JLightning]

stickman...

Firsf off, I agree with you on almost everything. I don't fault any Chautauqua pilot for anything other than some arrogant attitudes based on phenominal growth and rapid upgrades, but so what.

I thought you should have stuck it out for an industry leading contract that's all. If you did your company would still have been very profitable, but you probably wouldn't have gotten so much growth. I think you know this as did your MEC and BB certainly knew it.

What you don't see yet, through the haze of rapid upgrade time and the industry leading resume fodder that comes with it, is that mentality is a cancer on our profession. Good for you, for now, but bad for us all in the end. If we underbid you and secured all DCI flying permanantly, stopping your growth and causing hundreds of furloughs and downgrades would that be cool? Just 'bidness'?

What if we signed a 20 year contract with 0.1% annual raises. That way we could say we didn't take concessions, got higher rates, improved on scope and got the raises that come from rapid upgrades.

So to answer your question, no I don't expect you to quit to help me out. But you've got to realize that outsourcing pilot labor is horrible for the profession, and the more outsourcing to more and more "airlines" flying bigger and bigger equipment for more and more airlines is not a good thing, and it needs to be fixed.