Chances of getting on with a Major....

[Big Beer Belly]

I don't necessarily disagree. But aside from your 110 hours in the 38, how much time down in the weeds at 500 kts were you doing in your 141? Of course, you could have been an IP in the 38...

1600+ hours in the T-38 as an IP. As far as what was "so exciting" about flying the 141? ... Can't say I was very "excited" in general, though it had its moments ... chose it to simply get the hours for the airlines and see the world.

I thought air -refueling a 141 was an exciting/challenging maneuver, however. A 4-ship of 141's on a multi-ship tanker package ... a lot of funky aerodynamics at play under the tanker (holding left yoke to "slide" to the right due to tanker wingtip vortices, approach the tanker too fast and your bow wave will lift the tanker's tail ... he compensates, you compensate, potentially dangerous PIO's between aircraft, etc...). AR was often done at night, in the weather (turbulence, leans, visual illusions to fight) with contact times (personally) as long as 40 minutes (100,000+ lb offloads).

"Tactical" approaches (gear down/partial flap) at 20,000' into Mogadishu. The thought of some idiot shooting at you from the ground was motivating for me. That airplane is operated to numerous extremely "austere" locations around the planet ... to fields that don't "officially" exist (in foreign countries) to support agencies that will deny sending you should you become embroiled in "local" trouble. No radar vectors to an ILS final was more the norm than the exception ... "if" an approach existed ... it was a "temporary" NDB signal to get you below the weather till you picked up the "smudgepots" which outlined the "runway" that didn't exist. The 141 was routinely operated into McMurdo (Antarctica) ... the "special ops" guys flew the snot out of the thing in support of their mission (very low altitude, night-vision goggle, cargo drops).

So ... on the surface, 141 flying sounds boring. Like I said before though, it had its moments and it was a tough workhorse ... not particularly pretty or fast ... but dependable and built like a DC-8.

I am still having trouble with the whole "love" of flying thing though ... I could see it perhaps in a small aircraft in a beautiful wide open environment (Montana for instance) ... but 121 conjures up nothing of the sort in my mind. Instead, I think of ungrateful and irritating passengers, endless security hassles, a litany of rules and regulations, an industry in decline, long hours droning along in an aluminum tube being exposed to radiation. It beats digging ditches, for sure ... but "love" or "passion" for 121 flying? I'll keep looking ... but after doing it for years ... fighting with UPS over a new contract for going on 32 months now ... witnessing friend's take pay cuts and watch their pension promises evaporate ... reading the almost "affectionate" posts toward SCABS some write here ... I'd say I've become jaded a bit and see this merely as a paycheck.

As always ... YMMV,

BBB

 

[Big Beer Belly]

duplicate removed

 

[Big Beer Belly]

I, perhaps come from a different upbringing and believe that if want to go to school after high school it's on you.

With the popularity of 529 plans, Coverdell Education IRA's, and the myriad other assortment of college savings vehicles I'd say your opinion is in the minority. The world is tough today ... much more competition for high paying jobs than when I was growing up. I believe it is MY responsibility to give my kids a leg up on that competition.

In many parts of CA ... our children will be unable to afford a home in the neighborhood in which they grew up. (Million dollar track homes are the norm in many coastal locations.) It wasn't this way when I graduated from college. At that time I was able to purchase a home on Air Force pay ... no way is that possible today. Times are changing my friend, and I believe it is MY responsibility as a parent to equip my children with the educational skills they will REQUIRE to succeed in today's world. Doing less, IMO, is akin to kicking the chick out of the nest before it can fly.

BBB

 

[PAPA FOX!]

With the popularity of 529 plans, Coverdell Education IRA's, and the myriad other assortment of college savings vehicles I'd say your opinion is in the minority. The world is tough today ... much more competition for high paying jobs than when I was growing up. I believe it is MY responsibility to give my kids a leg up on that competition.

In many parts of CA ... our children will be unable to afford a home in the neighborhood in which they grew up. (Million dollar track homes are the norm in many coastal locations.) It wasn't this way when I graduated from college. At that time I was able to purchase a home on Air Force pay ... no way is that possible today. Times are changing my friend, and I believe it is MY responsibility as a parent to equip my children with the educational skills they will REQUIRE to succeed in today's world. Doing less, IMO, is akin to kicking the chick out of the nest before it can fly.

BBB

Very well said Big Beer Belly.

 

[jbDC9]

Some will be quick to accuse me of having an "attitude" of superiority for pointing out the "facts". All I am saying is that once you have experienced the performance capability of "afterburning" aircraft, you will not be so thrilled with the offerings of the civilian market ... just a fact.

It's a fact for you, not everyone. You keep mentioning not understanding the "love" for 121 flying, then in the same paragraph you slam private flying in an RV. Last time I checked, RVs are not operated under Part 121. Didja stop to think that 121 flying, because it is fairly boring, is the reason why so many airline types are building/flying RVs? To get back to the basics, the pure fun and joy of flight; that's why I'm building one. No FMC, EFIS or autopilot, just a fun little airplane. Do you just not like flying in general? Perhaps you should get a real job outside of aviation and go play golf and hang out at the country club every weekend...

Everyone knows how to get around the "vision" thing ... so that''s not an excuse.

This statement right here just makes you sound like an arrogant ass. Nice.

 

[buttercup]

With the popularity of 529 plans, Coverdell Education IRA's, and the myriad other assortment of college savings vehicles I'd say your opinion is in the minority. The world is tough today ... much more competition for high paying jobs than when I was growing up. I believe it is MY responsibility to give my kids a leg up on that competition.

In many parts of CA ... our children will be unable to afford a home in the neighborhood in which they grew up. (Million dollar track homes are the norm in many coastal locations.) It wasn't this way when I graduated from college. At that time I was able to purchase a home on Air Force pay ... no way is that possible today. Times are changing my friend, and I believe it is MY responsibility as a parent to equip my children with the educational skills they will REQUIRE to succeed in today's world. Doing less, IMO, is akin to kicking the chick out of the nest before it can fly.

BBB

Congratulations on doing right by your family!! I applaud you for having your priorities straight in an industry filled with so many self-centered whores willing and accepting they fly for whore wages just so they can tell everyone they fly a jet Woopy Damn doo.. Family is the most important thing in this world.. I've noticed that the men who are good family men tear themselves apart inside when they have to leave their families for five to seven days at a time.. The ones who dont mind being away from home are the ones with shitty family lives, or put flying ahead of their kids.. In regards to the above gentleman asking for advice I think he should give flying a shot.. All these words about a bad industry are 100 percent correct.. Let him find this out for himself though because otherwise he may regret not giving flying a shot. Then when he comes and sees some of the self-righteous slut whores he has to fly with he will realize that becoming financially secure and buying his own plane and flying on his own terms..not someone elses terms will be the way to go.. Thats why if hes smart enough to get a Physics PHD, he'll be smart enough to get out of this industry a few years after stepping foot in it

 

[FN FAL]

In five years, they plan on having "handheld" DNA "sniffer" technology. The device will be able to sniff out a DNA sample on scene, then through the majik of secure digital data uplink, find the owner of the sample by matching it with those that are on file. Since so many parents are worried about child abductions and willfully submit their child's DNA for identification purposes, that won't be so hard to do.

Ultimately, some flight school will be able to procure these devices and use them to help eliminate the expense of advertising and mass mailings of sales literature, by simply taking it to the airport and operating the device on the glass.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

It's a fact for you, not everyone. You keep mentioning not understanding the "love" for 121 flying, then in the same paragraph you slam private flying in an RV. Last time I checked, RVs are not operated under Part 121. Didja stop to think that 121 flying, because it is fairly boring, is the reason why so many airline types are building/flying RVs? To get back to the basics, the pure fun and joy of flight; that's why I'm building one. No FMC, EFIS or autopilot, just a fun little airplane.

jb ... you're right ... I have been schizophrenic interchanging the two ... sorry. 121 is definitely not a thrill, IMO. All of the RV builders that I know are equipping them with full EFIS panels, GPS, the works ... doesn't sound like "pure" flying (sounds kinda like 121 type flying) is what I failed to tie together.

Sounds like the RV type of flying suits you. I'm glad you enjoy it.

The larger, more obscure point I have failed to relay is what you alluded to in the end of your post about enjoying flying. While I don't "love" flying (like some do) ... that is not a prerequisite or a requirement in my book. Providing for my family is my priority ... not being "fulfilled". In my small world, I think you can do whatever you want when you are single and responsible for only yourself ... but when you make the choice to have children, their welfare becomes your overriding priority. So, NO ... I have no intention of quitting and finding some other more "fulfilling" line of work.

Cheer up jb! This is Flightinfo after all ... lots of whacked out opinions on nearly everything.

BBB

 

[radarlove]

Looks like K2774 has left the building...

 

[banned username 1]

And as BBB has alluded to (perhaps after reflecting) the wonderful thing about aviation is that it is so varied that there's something for everyone. Just as the auto industry has learned, there are different jobs for vehicles and they build many styles to accomplish the same task.

Regarding aviation as a career, let's keep the perspective that while it is a a major portion of a person's (and their family's) life, it's not everything. To some it is, and they are the ones that konk out a month after their 60th birthday. Flying, like any other means of feeding your family should be rewarding on many fronts. I can think of nothing worse than toiling in a job you dislike for your entire life- and so many, many people do that. Until it's proven otherwise to me, you've only got one to live with the people you love- you'd better enjoy your life to the greatest extent possible- and that does include choosing a likeable career with the compensation which provides you with a lifestyle that's agreeable with your own personality.

As far as homebuilt airplanes and their panels, mine has a pretty nice panel. Do I use all that stuff all the time? No. Is it nice to have when I need to use it? Yes. Don't forget that most pilots are gearheads- that stuff is BEAUTIFUL to look at, and since all pilots have panel-envy, it's just another way of saying mine's bigger than yours! I get just as much satisfaction of a different sort when I make a good landing. I also love the way my daughter looks when she sits there with those big headphones on and watches the world go by as we fly.

Indeed, there are so many more aspects to flying (as with everything else) that we often miss them- and many can be the most important ones of all.

As Lex Luthor once said "and there are those who can glean the secrets of the universe from a gum wrapper".....

Bottom line: stick to engineering

 

[ebaybob]

I too was the kid with my nose up against the window wishing to fly an airliner...still am to some extent. I read the AA pilot's column in Flying every month...the surgeon from Tampa who owns the Cheyenne also writes an interesting column every month. There are two perspectives of guys who love to fly and have chosen alternate routes to get there. I recall that recently the surgeon got to fly the delivery flight of a Southwest 737 and was giddy. I think I would be too...flying the heavy metal seems like such fun to a guy looking from the outside in.

I chose to get a PhD in accounting so I can pay the bills, feed my kids, and fly. I'll finish my PhD this year. I still have dreams (illusions) that I could get on with an airline and fly a jet...maybe when my kids are grown. I would say that it's a rare day that I go to the airport to fly and don't get jealous of the guys flying RJ's or Boeing products. I have friends doing both but I've never understood the economics behind aviation careers. I think the risk of layoffs, bankruptcy, etc is just too great for me...at least right now.

I still instruct as much as I can in order to get in the air and stay current. I've flown around 100 hours in the last year. I expect that going forward if I stay in an academic career the number of flight hours I can get in will increase rather dramatically. I really only HAVE to be somewhere about 8 hours a week so I've been successful fitting in all of my school duties around flying. Recently I've been thinking of getting a part-time cargo job where I could fill in around other pilots' vacation / sick / scheduling issues. I've had some offers but I haven't taken the plunge yet.

At the end of the day I hope to get a part-time spot with a busy 135 / corporate / airmed operator flying a King Air or a Citation. I'm hoping that with my relatively open availabilty I will be able to convince a chief pilot that I'll be a good risk. Ask me in a few years if it all works out...as for now it seems to be the right thing for me.

Bob

 

[PCL_128]

BBB, I certainly see where you're coming from. I have a friend that works at Delta that started flying in the Navy (E-3s). Flying has always been about making a living to him. He doesn't "love" it. It's just a way for him to make a good living, feed his family, and send them to college. There's certainly nothing wrong with that.

On the other hand, some of us still do love to fly. You seem to believe that the only way someone can enjoy flying is if they are getting shot at or doing Mach 2. Personally, I never had any interest whatsoever in flying a fighter. It just never appealed to me. I enjoy flying 121, but I don't "love" it. I certainly can't imagine being happy in any other career field though. I would go crazy sitting in an office 8 hours a day, no matter how big the paycheck would be. I do "love" GA flying though. It's great to fly into some tiny little airport in a little plane with no fancy avionics to buy a burger at the local airport restaurant. To each his own I guess.

 

[banned username 1]

Uh oh- watch out Ebaybob- I see indications of another unfortunate being turned to the "dark side". Beware


UAL78

 

[k2774]

I'm still here.......just reading. Thanks BBB and others for your valued input and wisdom.

And for the rest.....if I didn't love flying, I wouldn't have 400+ hours, be doing it right now, and contemplating on it being just a hobby.

P.S. My spelling may be off, verb tenses not correct, but I bet you I could sit in an interview and get a job and write a publishable document.

 

[PurpleTail]

It seems to me with your intellect that a flying career at a regional would bore you after a couple of years and be nothing more than a job. Do yourself a favor and stick to what you know and what pays. If you fly exactly the way your company trains, teaches and dictates (Standard Operating Procedures) it IS a boring job.

Unless of course you get to fly internationally all over the world

 

[check six]

K2774: I give you credit for thinking outside the box of what your normal career path is leading you to. If you want to fly for a living, you've got a ways to go and others have pointed out to you some viable roads. If you take those roads, you will be rubbing shoulders with guys that are willing to pay any price to get to the next level and "got nowhere else to go" as Richard Gere said in that tearjerker navy movie. You on the other hand will have options to go back to braniac land where the livin is easy and the money is good if you understand all those funky physics laws.

I know, I did it. I am an engineer and it comes easy to me. I got bored being an engineer and started flying as a single guy. Got all my ratings up through CFI, ATP, etc. One day, my buddy offered me a job flying Lears. I quit my cushy boring engineering job to fly 135 Lears. By that time I had a 6 month old and 3 year old and was on a 30 minute callout leash. My wife was going back to work, so it all hairballed up in my face and I had to go back to my day job just to keep things together. Keep in mind my day job pays well, but I am bored again. My two sons on the other hand love having me around all the time.

Flying jets is much more fun than being an engineer or scientist. Flying the jets is a good time and going all over is better than sitting in some lab with the same old braniacs gets old. But being in the same old hotel room gets old. Especially when you go to dinner and you see some kid at the next table who is your kids age and that's when you really miss your kid.

If you want to give it a shot, do it. I'll bet you can always go back to be a defense physics dude. They let me back in at a higher salary. Also, you will be the hit of any dorky engineer/scientist party. I have engineers come up to me all the time and say, "wow, you flew jets, Cool". I laugh my head off.

Big Beer Belly had some great comments. I don't think he is arrogant either. He is just saying that once you have flown a T38, the rest is like go carts. Once I flew a Lear, the slower stuff seems a little ridiculous, but I still go out and rent my C172 every few weekends. I admire his family responsibility view. I think the military guys do get spoiled, because they get the best aircraft and the 121 stuff is pretty restrictive. My only question for BBB, is how do you get around the vision thing? When I was 21 I had a doc look at my eyes who said they were 20/30. He told me sorry dude, unless your Dad is an admiral you ain't going. Oh well.

So K2774 go fly. You'll make 20-40 for about 4-6 years, then SWA, UPS or FDX if you do it right and there are not terrorism hits. PhD in physics, 100-200 a year with a stable career, albeit boring.

 

[k2774]

Thanks check six.........we do have a few sensible people out there.

 

[FN FAL]

I too was the kid with my nose up against the window wishing to fly an airliner...still am to some extent. I read the AA pilot's column in Flying every month...the surgeon from Tampa who owns the Cheyenne also writes an interesting column every month. There are two perspectives of guys who love to fly and have chosen alternate routes to get there. I recall that recently the surgeon got to fly the delivery flight of a Southwest 737 and was giddy. I think I would be too...flying the heavy metal seems like such fun to a guy looking from the outside in.

Bob

It's simple...get an interview at Mesaba and get in one of their 146 classes. You'll get a chance to feel what it's like to fly a 737 sized plane and if you're smart enough, you'll be able to run like hell and not pay a pro-rated training fee.

 

[radarlove]

So K2774 go fly. You'll make 20-40 for about 4-6 years, then SWA, UPS or FDX if you do it right and there are not terrorism hits. PhD in physics, 100-200 a year with a stable career, albeit boring.

Great, advice from someone who didn't quite make it. I'm not trying to insult you, but before you tell this guy to "go for it", why don't you share some example of folks going from zero to the majors in 4-6 years?

 

[Big Beer Belly]

My only question for BBB, is how do you get around the vision thing? When I was 21 I had a doc look at my eyes who said they were 20/30. He told me sorry dude, unless your Dad is an admiral you ain't going. Oh well.

Nice, well thought out post "check six". You understood my point perfectly. Some will consider it arrogance ... oh well, I'll muddle on. As far as the vision thing ... ROTC had pull in receiving waivers for candidates they really wanted. For the rest of us poor schmucks ... I'd say on the order of a third of all candidates were using "Ortho-K" at the time. These "hard" contact lenses would temporarily re-shape the cornea (didn't use it so don't know the precise mechanism involved) ... user wore these hard lenses several hours over a multi-day period and the result was "temporary" (1-2 hours) vision "correction" to 20/20 ... long enough to pass the entrance physical. Most of my friends were using them at the time.

About a quarter of my Air Force pilot training class were fitted with glasses (and given a waiver) during inprocessing physical. 20/20 vision was only a requirement to pass the INITIAL qualifying physical ... later you could go darn near blind as long as it was correctable to 20/20. In the old days when Delta required 20/20, buddies relayed similar stories of a third or more of the new hires squinting in class on the first day of indoctrination. The instructor told them, "Relax, you're on the property now ... everyone pull out your glasses and let's get down to work!" Sure enough ... out came the glasses and a huge sigh of relief. These hard lenses were all the rage years ago and used fairly extensively to modify vision temporarily.

BBB