Chances of getting on with a Major....

[Big Beer Belly]

Now I'm on with a major - albeit furloughed from my first 'major' job - but loving every minute of it. It is worth it, and I haven't found any bias against my age.

If you want the dream, get your ratings, and get a job as a CFI or anything else that will build time. In probably 5 years or less you'll be knocking on the door at your carrier of choice, resume in hand.

HAL

Dream? ... oh for Christ's sake ... 121 flying is managing a bus in the sky, at best. "Dream" is something with an afterburner. IMHO, flying (real true "flying") is in something with a climb rate nearing 30,000 fpm, "gaining" energy is as close as lighting the afterburners, and giving the darn thing back to someone else to fix and fill with gas. Without sounding arrogant, once you've flown anything resembling "high performance", you're are spoiled for life. It's always the civilian guys building RV-"whatevers" in their living rooms and bragging about 160 mph cruise, 3g capability etc... These two worlds are so different and the chasm so great, that I hesitate to even enter this conversation without starting another civilian vs. military debate.

IMHO, HAL's opinion is just dangerous enough to tempt someone (uninformed) into entering aviation and making a HUGE mistake (sorry HAL ... not meant as a personal attack). HAL gambled on a troubled carrier (Hawaiin), I'm guessing got furloughed and then hired by ANOTHER troubled carrier (America West) ... both poor long term prospects. The ONLY stable major airlines are SWA, UPS, and FedEx ... IMHO. Even SWA will face pressure for future wage concessions as their fuel hedging contracts run further into the future (IMHO).

This industry is headed into the toilet. There are too many pilots willing to work for blue collar wages and this will depress pilot earnings for a generation or more. 25+ years out ... look for single "pilot" (emergency only pilots) ... similar to today's subway "operators". Stick with a government job in the hush - hush sector in physics, my friend. More stability, less stress about providing for your family.

 

[GuppyPuppy]

I would like to add that I believe that timing is everything in this "career". It took me 15 years of flying and 5000 hours before I got on with United. I know others (some were my students) who got their CFI, got on with a regional and were hired at a major within five years. You really need to understand that these folks got in at a time when the demand for pilots was at a historically high level.

So, you may hear from some on this board that say "go for it". Just as you need to know that I think I got into this industry in a bad time, others who will post here got in at the perfect time.

Nobody can predict what will be happening five years from now, but I will tell you that there are thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of pilots who are younger and more qualified than you. Please understand that I am not trying to talk down to you, but merely pointing out that you will have a long road to a major if you choose to pursue this path.

Realize that there are airline pilots now working with nearly twenty years under their belt (at the same company, mind you) who are still on reserve. Yet there are also those at majors who started flying in the mid '90's. Each of these pilots thought they were making the best decision at the time to accept employment with their carrier. I thought I'd hit the jackpot when I got hired by United. I was on top of the world. I went from making nearly $115/hr to $19/hr within a few months. I went from winning the lottery to slave labor in the blink of an eye

Don't think that the airlines will furlough again because the economy is improving and airlines have cut their costs? All it will take will be a few nutty rag heads and the industry will quickly be in the proverbial tailspin once again.

I think when a retiring airline pilot looks back at his/her career, most will view their experience as 90% luck, good or bad. Are you willing to gamble at age 35?

Cheers!

GP

 

[radarlove]

I knew I would'nt be able to avoid the sarcasm, but "radarlove" I don't think you haven't the slightest clue as to what the career outlook for a physicist is. please explore www.aps.org, www.doe.gov, www.nsf.gov. We're all not college professors. We work at the national labs, for the government, and even for the airlines. We can even apply to the astronaut program.

Whatever.

If physics is so great, why give it up? Why would you ask if you should trade it in for a grueling, low-paying career if you think so highly of it?

Personally, I'd rather get my testicles smashed with a ball-peen hammer than work in a cube on a computer with a buzzing flourescent light above me, but that's me. I also made my life choices a lot earlier than you did. Being accepted at age 35 into a PhD program might impress your parents, but I know exactly how long it takes to finish and how few actually do, so you'll be in your mid-forties looking for your first job, competing with the 28 year-old PhDs. And yeah, sure, the market for PhDs is smokin' hot...not.

YOU HAVE TO MAKE SOME LIFE CHOICES BASED ON THE "RETURN ON INVESTMENT" UNLESS YOU WANT TO GROW OLD BROKE.

Yeah, and you haven't gotten around quite yet to making them. You're late out of the gate and your attitude makes me think you should be a bit cautious about rolling the dice in a career that is so based in personal contacts. Right now, if I knew who you were, I would NOT write a letter of rec for you. How's that feel, your first airline contact already doesn't want to work with you?

I WISH I DID LIVE IN A DO WHAT YOU LOVE KIND OF WORLD, BUT I DON'T. BECOMING A PHYSICIST IS NOT AS MUCH OF A GAMBLE AS TRYING TO FIND MEANINGFUL EMPLOYMENT IN AVIATION......AND I DO ENJOY BOTH. ESPECIALLY WHEN I DON'T HAVE AGE ON MY SIDE AND THE INDUSTRY IN THE SHAPE THAT IT IS.

As I mentioned earlier, it sounds like you've already made your decision for physics. Sounds sucky to me, but maybe that's why you came here for support.

SOMETIMES I WONDER IF SOME OF YOU LIVE IN REALITY. WOULD YOU OR COULD YOU EVEN LIVE OFF OF 40-60k A YEAR UNTIL YOU'RE SIXTY.....ALL WHILE RAISING A FAMILY, SAVING FOR RETIREMENT, TAKING CARE OF ELDERLY PARENTS. AND NOT TO MENTION ANY OTHER LIFE EMERGENCIES THAT MAY ARISE. SHOW ME WHERE THIS IS POSSIBLE, AT THE SAME TIME LIVING A COMFORTABLE LIFE, NOT LAVISH, AND I'LL SIGN THE DOTTED LINE.

Well it is, but only for us that made it to the top. Personally, I think you're not going to make it, but then I could be wrong.

I know that I have choices and I realize that it might be a risk. AND BELIVE ME, I WILL ANSWER MY OWN QUESTION. I'M JUST TRYING TO GET MORE INPUT FROM INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE IN THE INDUSTRY SO THAT I CAN MAKE A MORE INFORMED DECISION.

It sounds to me like you're looking to rationalize, not make your decision to sacrifice the next 5-10 years in a doctoral/post-doc world, making $2,000/month and doing what (exactly what) your advisor tells you to do.

If you came here to hear that the industry sucks, that furloughs suck the life out of you and that pay cuts make for divorces, then you'll find those opinions. On the other side, the time to get started when the industry is in it's worst convulsions, not when it's on the top of it's cycle. It's a cyclic industry. Already the job market at the very bottom (regional F.O. positions for low-paying companies) is as good as it's been in 10 years. By the time you'd make it through, the majors might very well be thriving again.

In my experience, it takes pretty much 15 years to make it from scratch to the majors, even if you went the military way, although some military guys take 20.

So you're thirty-five and just getting started--you'll hit the majors at 50 if everything goes right (and I don't have confidence it will for you, so don't take this as encouragement) and upgrade times range from 3 (AirTran) to 18 (AA) so it's possible you'll spend little, or no time as a high-earning captain.

So stick to your physics and cry in your beer about what could have been.

 

[capt. megadeth]

I've never been a big believer in doing "what your heart" or "what you love" ... or whatever the clever cute little phrase du jour says.

The majority of my life has been spent doing "what I love" and that is flying. I, on the other hand, am a big believer in this. In my opinion, it makes the difference between being miserable and being happy. There are definitely many many sacrifices that one makes for this career but IMHO it is worth it if you are doing what you love vs. something that just makes money. I am still pretty optimistic about the outlook though. Fortunately, I have been pretty lucky so far, so this probably has a lot to do with my views as well. Notice the word LUCKY.

Anyways, what you probably should do is look at the optimists on this thread vs. the pessimists. The reality is probably somewhere in the middle. Good Luck with whatever decision you make.

 

[typhoonpilot]

IMHO, flying (real true "flying") is in something with a climb rate nearing 30,000 fpm, "gaining" energy is as close as lighting the afterburners, and giving the darn thing back to someone else to fix and fill with gas. Without sounding arrogant, once you've flown anything resembling "high performance", you're are spoiled for life.

You couldn't be further from the truth. Real flying is an open cockpit biplane with only needle, ball, and airspeed. What you described is fun, but it isn't real flying.


TP

Oh, K2774 stick with Physics and rent airplanes for fun flying on the weekend.

 

[LR25]

You couldn't be further from the truth. Real flying is an open cockpit biplane with only needle, ball, and airspeed. What you described is fun, but it isn't real flying.


TP

Oh, K2774 stick with Physics and rent airplanes for fun flying on the weekend.

Typhoon is right, real airplanes have 2 wings, round engine and a tailwheel.

 

[k2774]

"RadarLove"

I worked for a major defense company for 7 years, quit my job to go back to school. I have a full NSF fellowship with a stipen of 28K. Since I already have an MS, it's only 3-4 more years to a PhD. I've interned at a national lab every summer since starting grad school with full benefits, vacation/sick leave.

I don't think I'll have problems getting LOR's from any source.

I don't sit at a desk all day. I'm accually in a LASER lab growing carbon nanotubes. I also will be eligible to apply to the astronaut program when the application window opens.

My delima is that I love flying also.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

The majority of my life has been spent doing "what I love" and that is flying. I, on the other hand, am a big believer in this. In my opinion, it makes the difference between being miserable and being happy. There are definitely many many sacrifices that one makes for this career but IMHO it is worth it if you are doing what you love vs. something that just makes money.

Not meant as an attack personally ... but I'm curious why so many subscribe to this thought pattern? It seems AMAZINGLY SELFISH to me ... I mean your entire earning career spent doing something you "love" versus earning money for your family. Fine, if you are single ... but extremely self-centered if raising a family. (I know those are big "IF's") Once you marry and start a family, your JOB is to PROVIDE for those little ones. I could give a rat's fanny about your "love" ... you need to put food on the table, save for retirement, and pay for your kid's college education ... as an ABSOLUTE MINIMUM!

Fact is ... there are way too many pilots willing to work for slave wages and scrub toilets on aircraft just to have the opportunity to stroke jet throttles (errr .... excuse me .... "thrust levers") ... and that fact alone will force pilot wages down. Combine this with the incredibly competitive nature of passenger airline ops, increased liberalization of intl air rights (even more competition) and the future for a major airline pilot is not very bright. Oh, forgot to mention the destruction of pensions .... what's left is just an hourly job cleaning airplanes and flying till the FAR limit of 16 hrs is hit. SWA and Jet Blue are fighting to pilot aircraft till you die at the yoke and coming up with ever more assinine twists on the few "protections" (8 hr flight limit/day) we have enjoyed (all in the "name" of productivity) ... safe to say these guys have done more to depress this occupation to that of a Wal Mart greeter than 25 years of poor bargaining in labor negotiations.

I keep coming back to what it is people so "love" about 121 flying? 30 degrees pitch +/- and (hold on now!) 45 degrees bank? For Christ's sake ... my grandmother exceeds those parameters walking to the crapper! In my very narrow window of what impresses me or gives me the least thrill ... there's NO 121 flying WHATSOEVER that even tickles that parameter. All I can come back with .... if you've even experienced the most basic of military flight training, you are FOREVER spoiled. You cannot compare 500 knot low levels or 3ft fingertip at 500 knots (the MOST basic of flight maneuvers) to 160mph cruise speed in an RV-"whatever". What the "hell" is it that so many civilian pilots "love" about 121 flying? In reality ... it is about as exciting as parallel parking a Greyhound or freeway commuting in a Yugo. You want exciting ... join the military.

YMMV,

BBB

 

[capt. megadeth]

BBB,
Well, see....I don't yet have a family. As a little girl, I grew up wanting to become an airline pilot, not my wedding day and definitely not to be the barefoot and pregnant little wifey. My dilemma is IF I want a family because I don't want to give up flying. I don't know how to explain it....I mean, I am finally at a place where I plan to stay, I have been flying for 14 years now. Sure, it is definitely anticlimactic (sp?). You dream about all this glory and crap, then by the time you finally get there, you are so spent that it is really not quite everything you dreamed it would be. BUT, the thought of doing something else just really blows. Besides, do we know if this dude even has a family that he has to think about? I mean, if not, then we are wasting key strokes here...know what I mean?

By the way, all I have to do is go to my second job and I realize what I "love" about 121 flying. I drive home and think...."8 hours a day, 5 days a week working my a$$ off.........F&^* THAT! Everyone is different...that is just me.

 

[k2774]

..........engaged and no children...........

 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

Why not just go corporate if you really want to fly? I'd agree with other posters that the airline route, other than working for SWA, JB, FEDEX or UPS may very well be like getting teeth pulled(no novacaine). There are other avenues in aviation.

safe to say these guys have done more to depress this occupation to that of a Wal Mart greeter than 25 years of poor bargaining in labor negotiations.

WalMart greeters don't have 401k's that look anything like that of a 20-30 year SWA pilot. Neither do legacy carrier pilots have pension plans that look that good. At least going forward they don't.

Good luck on your decision.

Mr. I

 

[AV80R]

B_B_B - “I keep coming back to what it is people so "love" about 121 flying? “30 degrees pitch +/- and (hold on now!) 45 degrees bank? For Christ's sake ... my grandmother exceeds those parameters walking to the crapper!”

Love the comparison! My mom keeps saying I chose a really “dangerous” profession. I’ll try to put her at ease next time we talk about my flying by using your comparison; hopefully it’ll put her at ease!


k2774 – I’d think your chances of a “good return on 'your' investment" would be much better outside the aviation business. By all means keep trying if you really want to fly professionally, but you don’t sound like someone who’s truly into it. Maybe I am wrong, don’t know, good luck to you regardless of what you decide.

 

[radarlove]

"RadarLove"

I worked for a major defense company for 7 years, quit my job to go back to school. I have a full NSF fellowship with a stipen of 28K.

Ok, you're really cool. Love the part about $28k! I was wrong, you won't be making $2,000 per month, you'll be making $2,300 per month...jumping at your advisor's every whim.

Since I already have an MS, it's only 3-4 more years to a PhD. I've interned at a national lab every summer since starting grad school with full benefits, vacation/sick leave.

I'm drooling with envy. Vacation AND benefits?

I don't think I'll have problems getting LOR's from any source.

Yeah, you know exactly how many airline pilots? That you've flown with?

The more you write, the more I fear that you would have zero chance of making it to the top of this career. You come across as very arrogant, especially considering the very weak achievements you've earned. Your 20s are for taking chances and reaching for the brass ring, not your 40s with a family. The train done left the station. Well, for you, that is, there is still the occasional success late-start success story, but those guys and gals were driven and made sacrifices.

I don't sit at a desk all day. I'm accually in a LASER lab growing carbon nanotubes. I also will be eligible to apply to the astronaut program when the application window opens.

Sounds deadly boring. Ok, the buzzing flourescent lamp is above your head in a lab instead of a cube. But that's now, not when you get your job as a PhD, where you will very likely be sitting in a cube with the same buzzing light above you.

I wouldn't get my hopes up about that whole astronaut fantasy, but if it keeps you going, then more power to you.

My delima is that I love flying also.

Your dilemma is that you are not a particularly decisive person and you have hit your midlife crisis a bit early. In your world your accomplishments may sound neato, but in my world, you're still stuck in neutral. There are PhDs, MDs and many MBAs in the airline pilot ranks. In fact, to make rank, most military guys grab a Master of Science in their spare time. The Air Force and Naval Academy guys will make your eyes water with their academic achievements, generally in engineering.

Oh yeah, the airlines employ ex-astronauts too.

You don't "love flying" enough. If you did, you'd be in my shoes.

In my opinion, you came here to find evidence that you should stick to what counts as "a plan" in your world instead of wading into the difficult waters of an aviation career, because perhaps the career isn't what it used to be.

Well good luck, flying airplanes is (to me) like being an explorer in Columbus's time. The coolest career in the planet. Making buckyballs in a national laboratory is flat out boring in relation. Wow, maybe you'll present a poster as second or third author!

To cut you some slack, I too used to think I was a pretty accomplished guy when I was your age.

Then I sat in my initial training class and listened to everyone one at a time around the room introduce himself and give some background details. A humbling experience, let me tell you! See, many of these guys not only had the academic credentials you have, they also flew and earned the experience required to hit the majors while you were sitting with your thumb up your rear end at a defense contractor's.

 

[jbDC9]

I keep coming back to what it is people so "love" about 121 flying? 30 degrees pitch +/- and (hold on now!) 45 degrees bank? In my very narrow window of what impresses me or gives me the least thrill ... there's NO 121 flying WHATSOEVER that even tickles that parameter. All I can come back with .... if you've even experienced the most basic of military flight training, you are FOREVER spoiled. You cannot compare 500 knot low levels or 3ft fingertip at 500 knots (the MOST basic of flight maneuvers) to 160mph cruise speed in an RV-"whatever". What the "hell" is it that so many civilian pilots "love" about 121 flying? In reality ... it is about as exciting as parallel parking a Greyhound or freeway commuting in a Yugo. You want exciting ... join the military.

Did you get that ego from the Air Force as well? "...join the military." Man, why didn't I think of that??? Oh, right. My vision is less than perfect. So you see, not everyone can just "join the military" and fly fast jets at 500 kts in the dirt. It's not that simple. Also, I think maybe it's just you; I've met/heard of quite a few current and former military pilots who build and fly RV's. Maybe an RV isn't so boring after all...

So here's my take. I love to fly, been wanting to do this since I was 10 yrs old. Yep, you're right, pushing a 737 around can be very, very boring, yet at times it can also be very rewarding. I have a pretty good schedule, lotsa days off and the pay ain't bad. Beats a real job, 8 to 5 five days a week. And shame on me, I'm building an RV-8 in my garage... is that a bad thing? For the record, it's just me and the wife, no kids to feed.

I think Typhoonpilot said it best regarding "real" flying. Rag wings and tailwheels rule, IMHO.

 

[B6Driver]

Life's too short so do what your heart wants.
I still love going to work after 20 years in the Biz.
Use your brain in a side job to make some extra loot along the way.
Best of luck!