CFII Before CFI ?

[Amish RakeFight]

There would have been an AC or something for such an important change in training tradition. Current CFI's would have been mailed literature on the change in guidence. If the local FSDO and DPE's aren't making issue of it, then it must be okay. No one seems to have any stories of CFII-only's being violated either.

 

[AC560]

There is nothing that restricts a CFII to teaching instrument rating students only. It only limits him to teaching instrument flight training.

So what things in 61.107 can a CFI-I sign for and what things does a CFI-A need to sign for?

61.193 says A person who holds a flight instructor certificate is authorized within the limitations of that person's flight instructor certificate and ratings to give training and endorsements

61.195(c) says flight instructor who provides instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided.

The only limitation seems to be if you want to teach IFR training you need to be a CFI-I. There doesn't though seem to be any restriction to a CFI-I saying you can't teach things other then XYZ.

I am sure I am just missing something but I never really thought about it much until this thread came up. Because they way I read through it is if you accept the fact that CFI-I can instruct in a plane they can do everything.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

A CFI can teach you whatever they want to cover. However, if the training is to lead to a private certificate, then these hours must be flown with a CFI-A. If the objective is to train for an instrument rating, then the training time logged has to be spent with a CFI-I.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

I talked to the FAA in DCA on this subject today and they said nothing has changed on this, a CFI-IA (only) can still teach and recommend a pilot for the IRA ticket. Nothing has changed and there was never any intention to change this. We did not discuss the 3 hours required for the PA.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

I've never seen anything that says you can or cannot use a CFII who does not also have a CFI.

Daytonaflyer: I keep telling you but you will not listen. There is no such thing as a CFI (only). A CFI-I is also a CFI and so are all 7 CFI certificates. Your post makes no sense unless you identify what you mean by a CFI. If you mean a CFI-A(SE) then say so. Or do you mean a CFI-A(ME), or maybe you mean a CFI-G, or CFI-RH, or maybe a CFI-IH. Nobody knows for sure when you say CFI. I thought we went all through this. Don't you believe me or what?

 

[AC560]

However, if the training is to lead to a private certificate, then these hours must be flown with a CFI-A. If the objective is to train for an instrument rating, then the training time logged has to be spent with a CFI-I.

Where this is in the FAR's though, because all that I see is if you want to teach for the instrument rating your need a CFI-I. I don't see anything else.

a CFI-IA (only) can still teach and recommend a pilot for the IRA ticket.

Where is this limitation in the FAR's.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Where this is in the FAR's though, because all that I see is if you want to teach for the instrument rating your need a CFI-I. I don't see anything else.

Where is this limitation in the FAR's.

I'm really not sure what you are asking because there are no limitations specifically mentioned for a CFI-IA that I can think of, except for the limitations that apply to all CFI’s. But as I and many others have mentioned a CFI-IA can train and recommend instrument airplane students for their instrument rating airplane test. It is done all the time and I have personally tested such instrument applicants. Plus, as I have already mentioned, IACRA looks at the qualification of the recommending instructor and IACRA has been programmed by the FAA certification branch to allow a CFI-IA to recommend an IRA student for his/her practical test. Furthermore, just 2-days ago I happened to be talking to the FAA IACRA guru in DCA on just this subject. He says there are no plans to change this and my question was the first he had heard that there was any controversy on this subject. He thought that the privileges of a CFI-IA were clearly understood to be training and recommending IRA students.

Now as far as providing the 3 hours instrument time to a Private Airplane student, I don’t really have nor does anyone need an opinion on this because it is a rather ridiculous question and concern. Clearly a private pilot will be receiving all of his/her training from a CFI-A, and certainly that instructor will be the one providing the 3-hours of instrument time. It’s the CFI-A instructor that will be doing the recommending and that instructor will be the one to verify the proficiency of the student on the instrument tasks.

 

[AC560]

I'm really not sure what you are asking because there are no limitations specifically mentioned for a CFI-IA that I can think of, except for the limitations that apply to all CFI’s.

Which means that a CFI-I has no restriction on any instruction in an airplane nor endorsement. The limitation on a CFI in the FAR's is that to instruct for the instrument you need the CFI-I. I see no restriction that says a CFI-I cannot give instruction for ratings or certificates other then the instrument.

 

[nosehair]

just 2-days ago I happened to be talking to the FAA IACRA guru in DCA on just this subject. He says there are no plans to change this and my question was the first he had heard that there was any controversy on this subject. He thought that the privileges of a CFI-IA were clearly understood to be training and recommending IRA students.

Too bad you didn't have your FAR's handy to show him FAR 61.195(b)"A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold:
(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with ( I say again) with applicable class and category ratings."

And then look at FAR 61.1, which defines flight training as: "...means that training, other than ground training, recieved from an authorized instructor in flight in an aircraft."

Doesn't say "other than instrument training"; it says "any flight training in an aircraft".

I believe if you could have shown him those two regulations, he might have had a different opinion as to the state of confusion which exists from the wording of it (them).

 

[AC560]

Just checking to see if UndauntedFlyer has posed NoseHairs questions to his contacts in Washinton.