cfi question

[starvingcfi]

just a quick question to ease my mind.

a guy that used to work the desk at my old school is a private pilot. (not a very good one) anyway, i just got a call from a guy i worked with saying he cracked up a 235 this afternoon flying with a new cfi. no definite word yet, but i think he collapsed the nose gear. they're both ok (obviously) but it's probably a mess.

my question is, i've flown the 235 with him. my name is in his logbook. probably 30 hrs or so. none in the past 10 months. i've never signed him off for anything...just did x-country's with him. i'm ok, right? i don't see how i could be liable for anything, but i have flown the plane with him. just wanna cover my own if there is some chance of any action against me.

anyway, like i said. don't think it's a problem. just wanted to get some opinions. thanks.

 

[Northern Lights]

Gald that they are ok...

If anyone is going to have problems, it is probably the CFI he was flying with at the time of the incident.

 

[avbug]

One can only guess at what you mean by a 235. Let's hope it's not the student's wife's measurements.

While unfortunate that your ex-student experienced a mishap, unless you provided some instruction that would lead the student to perform such a feat, you likely have little problem. The immediate problem for the student will be himself or herself. The next immediate person in line for punitive action or investigation will be the instructor. After that it's the President of the United Way. I usually get dragged into it somewhere; thanks for the heads up. I'll expect the call.

An example of a time when it might bite you is providing instruction which may lead a student to do something unwise. If you routinely have a student put the flaps up on the runway, and the student one day inadvertantly raises the gear instead, you may be tied to that event, like it or not. If you demonstrate low level runs to the student, and one day he later gets tied up in power lines, you may be tied to it as a contributor.

If the student experiences a nosegear collapse, you probably won't have much to worry about. Try to find out as much about the incident as possible.

The time will come when you'll be unable to remember the names of all the students, instructors, co-workers, and associates who have been injured, are missing, or killed in the industry. If you stick with it long enough. After a while, you'll remember the person with regret for the loss, but move on and think little about it. In other words, you'll get hardened to it. Never accustomed to it, but it won't bother you nearly as much.

If you stick with it, long enough.

So long as you've done your job properly, don't be afraid of what you can't control. Document all your training in great detail; it may be those detailed personal records that will make all the difference for you.

 

[Timebuilder]

Assuming you're talking about a Cherokee six, they are so easy to land it makes me think "Hmmmm". Find out the rest of the story, and tell us.

 

[starvingcfi]

ok. i got more of the story yesterday afternoon.

the guy (not really my ex-student...just a private pilot i was flying with a little) and the new instructor (who's got 350hrs or so and never been in a 235...which is not a cherokee six. look it up) jump in the plane to go for a ride. the 235 has 4 fuel tanks. the guy started the flight out on the right outboard tank. it's been a while, but i think it holds 17 gallons or so. something like that. anyway, they fly for about an hour and a half. they go to some other airport and plan on landing. in the pattern, the guy notices the selector is still on the right outboard tank. having no concept of anything, he thinks it's ok. not the smartest guy in the world. he plans on changing tanks on the ground. well, as usual, he comes in too high and too fast for a 2800' or so runway. the instructor says, "let's go around." the guy brings the throttle up and the engine croaks out. the instructor, having never been in the airplane didn't think to switch to a different tank...or watch the fuel situation in the first place. however, being so low, not sure i would've taken the time to switch tanks either. might've had him do it for me though.

anyway, now they're high and fast for a somewhat small runway with no engine. the instructor takes it and manages to get it down. however, they overran (sp?) the runway and collapsed the nose gear and one of the mains. think they hit a ditch or something. but they're both ok. just shaken up.

ok. that's the story i got from one of the other instructors. i'm gonna go recover from last night.

 

[JediNein]

That instructor needs to start prepping for his 709 ride. Don't bother waiting, just expect it. There was an instructor on board, the FAA will hang him.

Starving CFI, was there an entry in that pilot's logbook stating you covered the fuel system with him? How about a systems checkout, aircraft checkout, or anything that could be construed as an aircraft checkout or instruction in the fuel system?

Worst case, both you and Avbug are hauled into court by the insurance company and forced to pay for the collapsed firewall, engine overhaul, and replacement prop.

Medium case, you might get a call from the FAA asking what instruction you provided and did you consider it adequate.

Best case, you end up being the pilot's remedial training instructor and beat some systems knowledge into the guy.

Don’t lose any sleep over it.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[starvingcfi]

yeah. i'm not worried about it anymore. i didn't give the aircraft checkout. he did that with his old instructor that did his private. also, with an instructor on board, i should pretty much be in the clear...i would think.

like i said, i didn't really give him any training. we just did x-countries. we'll see what happens.

 

[avbug]

Thanks for the clarification on what a "235" is. I still have no idea what you're talking about. Stop to think for a moment that perhaps more than one aircraft uses a 235 hp motor.

Simply because an accident happens with a flight instructor on board, the flight instructor isn't going to get hanged. The individual circumstances will dictate, as well as the instructor's attitude of compliance, and that of the student. The publicity that is garnered by the event will also bear on the pressure placed on the Adminstrator to act.

 

[puddlejumper]

I'm thinking that he may be talking about the PA-28-235. That's either a Challenger or a Dakota. The Dakota, with the tapered wing, might be a -236. I'm not sure. Maybe he's talking about a Piper Colt, with the 0-235 engine in it?

Fly safe, Happy New Year!

-pj

 

[JediNein]

It's been my experience in CA that an instructor on board front or back seat during an accident or incident is automatically given a "709" ride. Usually the FAA waits until the dust settles from the accident or incident, but the ride is asked for BEFORE the NTSB and/or FAA determines if pilot qualification or maintenance issues caused the problem.

Your airspeed will vary.

I just flew a '236' yesterday, the 236 is a Piper Dakota, the 235 I only know it as a Dakota Wannabe. It's a Warrior on steroids, equivalent to a C182. There are a few differences between the 235 and 236 besides the one horsepower like a longer fuselage and simpler fuel system. They land beautifully with a little power and have a slightly better sink rate as compared to an anchor without power.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[JediNein]

Click for Photos

 

[avbug]

THat may be, but "235" is not an aircraft designation. I flew a piper pawnee PA-25-235, but certainly never called it a 235. I've flown a number of airplanes with 235 rated powerplants, but never called them 235's, either. Then again, I didn't elect to call the C-97 a 4360, the P2 a 3350, or the 4Y a 2600...Perhpas we could apply that logic to type ratings, too? Earn a Lear type and you're not really typed in a LRJET, but rather a TFE-731. That will get you into a little over half the business jet fleet out there.

At least then you can refer back breezily to the last flight and say, "Yeah, there I was, flyin' that 731 around the pattern when the air in the left radome inverted and I had to take over manually and skid her to a hover with one hand...yeah, that's the ticket, I was busy, er, busy, ah, busy changing a passengers' baby's diaper with the other hand and the little tyke was well on his way, let me tell you. That's the ticket. Kind of reminds me of the time in nepal in that other 731 when I was being followed by a 235 that wouldn't answer his radio when I asked any inbound traffic to please advise..."

 

[FSIGRAD]

There are a few differences between the 235 and 236 besides the one horsepower

Its not that one engine has more power the difference is the wing on the airplane. The 235 has the straight "hersey bar" wing and Pipers with the semi tapered "hersey bar" are designated with and extra number added. Ex. PA28-160 vs. PA28-161. Same engine.....

 

[starvingcfi]

does not knowing that it is a pa-28-235 have any impact on the story? what does it matter. it's a cherokee 235. if it really makes a difference to the story, i'll post the N number, color, and equipment suffix.

i was just asking a question in the first place.

 

[starvingcfi]

...by the way, it's a pathfinder. not sure what the differences between a pathfinder and dakota are, if any. not that it matters. it's still a cherokee.

 

[Traumahawk]

I think Pathfinders were only produced in the first year of the -235 series....then it became known as the more recognized Dakota.

Hey Starvin' Marvin, you know which direction they 'landed'? Sometimes I'll park my car @ the fence on the south side with some good music on and watch people bang em' in. Guess I missed a show....and a possible mid-uh, ground collision.

They would have been glad to run into my car though as far as worth....lets just say no paperwork would be filed!

T-hawk

 

[350DRIVER]

The CFI that was with him will have a little fun with the FAA on a 709 ride. It is not a question of "if" but a question of "when". I surely would know the aircraft inside and out if I was a CFI and being "paid" to provide flight instruction.

Depending on the FAA review of records/logs you may or may not have to give a statement since you did ( as you stated) provide instruction to him regardless of whether or not you signed him off.

3 5 0

 

[starvingcfi]

i'm surprised "jesus of aviation" didn't have anything to say.

 

[bart]

Well since you invited, I will speak. It always helps to be specific when asking for help. Perhaps if your friend had been more specific he wouldn't have jeopardized his career.

BTW, Avbug , wasn't the Dakota a twin engine tail-dragger that carried Pathfinders to the DZ?

 

[Timebuilder]

..and never been in a 235...which is not a cherokee six.

Well, I have found that a lot of people mistake the various planes in the Cherokee family, and the 235/236 and the Six have similarities without being the same aircraft. I have friends who have both a Dakota and a Six. If you know what you're looking at, the differences are easy to see. Just trying to help out.

Most of the time, the longer tapered wing is pretty docile on landing, and the hershey bar wing, which is shorter, takes more finesse, as it is more "brick like". Certainly fuel management is critical on the Pipers compared to the "both" setting on your garden variety Cessna fuel valve.

If you gave no instruction in the aircraft, I would not be concerned.