Centurion Cargo

[MD11Drvr]

Well, I'll hold off on the heavy debate until i've got more time there then.

In the meantime, here is my logic... from what I can see, the company is only trying to compete with the competition.. and if the competition is paying peanuts, don't expect much better. I spoke with a couple of your senior captains that felt that if they held off on the vote, the mediators would have come in and dropped it even lower.. based on what Centurion, and others are paying that is a likely hood.

The DC-10's are going to go.. they simply aren't efficient enough to compete for the good contract that's Gemini is after. I think with the new (STRONG) financial backing of Bayside (and their generous credit line offer) when we find new replacements for the DC's (could be 744, 777F, or more MD's).. Those will be added to the fleet. CLEARLY, the company isn't in business to go out of business, and CLEARLY the investor (one of the world premier PE's) isn't going to invest the kind of money into them to fail either.

Hang tight, and look me up in 2 years or so.. (about how long I thin it will be before things are good).. and after 2 years, we'll be close to the Aug '09 date.. if you're still there, I look forward to working with you to get the contract to where it should be.

Now, I've got to go spend some quality time with my family before I deploy for training for the next 50-60 days.

V70T5,

Your enthusasim is refreshing, but maybe a little hard to swallow for the jaded crowd. I am glad you feel good about Gemini and I love my job at World. There are things I do not like at World but this also explains why I call it my job and not my hobby or the thing I do for fun. One day you are top of the world and another you are at the bottom of the cess pool. I see the point you are trying to make where it comes to pay, but please don't ever kid yourself that ALPA will fix what is wrong in ths industry. Or for that matter anyone else. Your Union will only be as good as yor MEC or EXCO is. On the National level ALPA or the Teamsters etc. are an entity that must be fed and supported to support thier structures. They will eat thier young to survive and you have to pray your carrier never makes it to the dinner plate. My best advice if you are interested is make contacts at other ACMI carriers as many of us have had to do so as to move around from furlough to furlough in the ACMI world and having friends is the only way to move around easily. Avoid comparrisons where you can as they only serve to divide and the last thing needed is more strife and division.

Lastly avoid the koolaid and keep your powder dry.

Good Luck (From a guy looking for the 4th uniform I will have to hang in my closet)

 

[HA25]

V70T5,

Your enthusasim is refreshing, but maybe a little hard to swallow for the jaded crowd. I am glad you feel good about Gemini and I love my job at World. There are things I do not like at World but this also explains why I call it my job and not my hobby or the thing I do for fun. One day you are top of the world and another you are at the bottom of the cess pool. I see the point you are trying to make where it comes to pay, but please don't ever kid yourself that ALPA will fix what is wrong in ths industry. Or for that matter anyone else. Your Union will only be as good as yor MEC or EXCO is. On the National level ALPA or the Teamsters etc. are an entity that must be fed and supported to support thier structures. They will eat thier young to survive and you have to pray your carrier never makes it to the dinner plate. My best advice if you are interested is make contacts at other ACMI carriers as many of us have had to do so as to move around from furlough to furlough in the ACMI world and having friends is the only way to move around easily. Avoid comparrisons where you can as they only serve to divide and the last thing needed is more strife and division.

Lastly avoid the koolaid and keep your powder dry.

Good Luck (From a guy looking for the 4th uniform I will have to hang in my closet)

Thanks for that mature and good advise. I disagree about ALPA, but I do agree that the MEC is ultimately what ALPA is at that particular carrier. I think if ALL pilots united under ALPA, rather than have all of these different unions, we could actually then present a unified front against the managers and owners of the industry that are dead set on turing our jobs into minimum wage service jobs.

That said, I don't pretend to say that ALPA is perfect.. nor is Gemini, or any airline for that matter. But don't think that for one minute I will sit there and just so I can protect my future employment prospects at another ACMI, defend the right of non-union ACMI's to bring down the bar.. a Job flying wide body international isn't so important to me that I'll sell myself that low.

I believe Gemini has a strong future, and maybe one day will be more like World, or Atlas.. it's not far behind. But at the same time I don't kid myself, and I always keep my Resume updated.. But by God, if I leave Gemini, it's not going to be a lateral or downward move.. otherwise, it's going to be back into a non-flying job for me to ride out the bad times.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

V70T5,

Your enthusasim is refreshing, but maybe a little hard to swallow for the jaded crowd.

To a guy coming from a regional, Gemini probably seems like a dream job.

To a guy coming from a Caravan or C-402, a regional probably seems like a dream job.

To a guy whose been flight instructing, a Caravan seems like a dream job.

To a guy fresh out of flight school, flight instructing must seem like a dream job.

To the (almost half) of the pilots who apparently felt that their latest contract was not all it should have been, UPS $ucks.

Moral of the story? The only happy pilots are new-hires...the guys who are just out of class, unjaded by years in the same seat, on endless reserve, or in any number of generic hotels thousands of miles from home.

V70T5, welcome to international, wide-body ops. Everybody else...let's keep our perspective on where we've been, and where we're going.

 

[MD11Drvr]

Thanks for that mature and good advise. I disagree about ALPA, but I do agree that the MEC is ultimately what ALPA is at that particular carrier. I think if ALL pilots united under ALPA, rather than have all of these different unions, we could actually then present a unified front against the managers and owners of the industry that are dead set on turing our jobs into minimum wage service jobs.

That said, I don't pretend to say that ALPA is perfect.. nor is Gemini, or any airline for that matter. But don't think that for one minute I will sit there and just so I can protect my future employment prospects at another ACMI, defend the right of non-union ACMI's to bring down the bar.. a Job flying wide body international isn't so important to me that I'll sell myself that low.

I believe Gemini has a strong future, and maybe one day will be more like World, or Atlas.. it's not far behind. But at the same time I don't kid myself, and I always keep my Resume updated.. But by God, if I leave Gemini, it's not going to be a lateral or downward move.. otherwise, it's going to be back into a non-flying job for me to ride out the bad times.

I am glad we live in a time where opinions are OK and to "agree to disagree" is an admirable quality. Good Luck with your decision making matrix as we will all reach different conclusions to the similar questions. This career and the company you fly for has become a crap shoot at best and we will be witness to sweeping changes in this industry and most will not be good for us.

Good luck to us all, Happy New Year and may luck and good fortune be in all our futures.............

 

[HA25]

^^

Whistlin'Dan & MD11Drvr,

Well said.. I commend you both on shedding some perspective on this for all of us.

 

[fogrunner]

Mister volvo (v70..): first of all: welcome to gemini. I see you got hired to the Gucci side of the house, go to the other side and it gives you a bit more of a bottom dweller feel.

Okay I am throwing the "bovine excrement" flag. Here is a guy who is enthusiastic about coming to Gemini. Sure he is upbeat why shouldn't he be?
All new hires are going to the 11. You had the opportunity to go a few months ago and you by passed it.

(why are Arrow, Avient, Das Air, Cargo Italia and a few others looking to buy DC10's? -Das Air lost a few of them in a sale of the lease company, beyond the control of Das air).

And Now you compare us with wait for it.. Das Air!! Have you noticed Das has been banned from European airspace because of repeated safety violations. Who is now flying their DHL contract work.. Ahh we are.. Their crew costs are what? At least half of what ours are. They stay in a hostel in Lagos with communal bathrooms. We are not flying DAS trips we are actually flying DHL trips.
Cargo Italia has one DC10. We had 2 DC10s flying for them and they replaced them with the 11. Why? Cost!!!!!!!
The critical point for the 10 is around the $60 a barrel more than that and the a/c becomes more difficult to sell. You mentioned Avient. I do not even want to go there. Are you suggesting we throw are work rules out the window in favor of theirs. Can you say 24-26 hour duty days.

What this parking of those -10's will mean though is that there will be furloughs, and since you are one of the last ones in the door, you'll be the first one out.

I love it. Are you trying sabotage the new hire class? Come to Gemini and be furloughed in six months. Let's scare off the new hires and not be able to operate for the customers we have. This is outrageous NW. Yes I know who you are.
What preponderance of statistical data do you base furloughs on. We are right now 22-25 crew members short on the 11. Have you seen the CI flying, it eats up crews. 3-4 crews to do the whole roundtrip through India and back. I just looked at the 10 side of the house. We have enough crews to fully staff five a/c. Hmm 4 a/c and a running spare. We are down to 31 f/os on the DC10. Take out sick leave and vacation we are down to to 25 if you take out the guys in training you are down to 22 include ALPA and now we are at 21. So now you have 21-25 f/os to cover the 10 flying. Think about it. Half the month a third to half the guys are at home on days off.

Granted we have issues. Have you looked around at some of the other carriers. I can count three or four who are furloughing pilots. There is one who furloughs out of one a/c and hires into the other. There are others who do the seasonal furlough. The situation here is far from utopia, however we could be doing a lot worse. Pay is not the only issue. Perhaps you would prefer to go to work for Arrow or Centurion?
I cannot believe you are jumping all over new hires for being enthusiastic about coming to work here. Are we the best? Heck no but far from the worst either. We still have some decent work rules in place.

I will give you this NW. DAS Air will have to get more DC10s to replace the ones they have lost recently.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=247932&highlight=DASAIR

And Arrow needs to replace the a/c they totaled recently.

http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/n68047/photo.shtml

 

[HA25]

That was long needed... glad to see you here Fogrunner, in our all ACMI=Bottom dweller thread..

Looking forward to seeing you on-line (for the 6 months or so I'll be there)

 

[jercdevil]

V70T5

I guess your coolaid must be laced with crack. I've been at Gemini now for 10 years and they still don't have there SH%T together. I'm glad someones happy here!!!!!

 

[HA25]

V70T5

I guess your coolaid must be laced with crack. I've been at Gemini now for 10 years and they still don't have there SH%T together. I'm glad someones happy here!!!!!

Well, I hear Centurion may need to hire...

 

[B737Dvr]

perspectives.......

You guys know what?......This thread has actually served some good!!!
It started out with the bashing of a certain ACMI carrier with certain individuals at polar extremes not holding back their opinions, frustrations, wishes, tempermants or personalities. What is separating this from an endless cesspool of (you suck, ...No...YOU SUCK!!) is the intellect and experience of others coming through in benign posts that are meant to inform and advise.

V70T5 although at first quite a pot stirer, has actually motivated all of us enough to care to put in our two cents. Seems to me, that we have quite a collective experience base represented here.

Which bring me to "perspectives"

I for one have 4 uniforms hanging at home and I still have alot of time to go before retirement. I have flown many different jets already under 91,135, and 121 pax and cargo, etc etc.....Only 1 aviation job for me came without the help of "knowing someone". The key distinction in this industry, no matter where we go, at what time, flying people or boxes, is the guy/gal sitting next to you going across the plains, mountains, or oceans night or day. That person and others like them ,kinda like the people on here, are what makes the difference. One of the best briefings I ever heard in addition to other things, said something about "if we aren't having fun, then we're doing something wrong"...

Passion, fulfillment and humor in my professional and social lives are what is dearest for me. The criminal managements, greedy executives, ********************ty economic environments and mal-intentioned crew members are what test me.
I have flown with several pilots that are just the most miserable and bitter people on earth. These all had one similar trait, that is they valued the money and prestige the most, and either hadn't attained it or did and lost it.

Im not going to sit here and write about how money is not everything, I think a Belushi, Elvis, Marylin Monroe or Chris Farley can lay that arguement to rest, but I will sit here and write about how the absence of any passion or love for what you do can be quite a slow death, one from which you wont recognize it until you're 60 or worse.

I have come to believe that in every student pilot groundschool or Cessna manual the first question should be.....why? Why do you want to be a professional pilot? (not weekend warriors) If you can't answer that question, or if it's for the prestige and money then I believe you are in for the world of hurt and misery, and a 9-5 cubicle would be more to their liking.

If a FEDEX or UPS pilot can bitch about how bad their job is or about not getting that extra dollar gain given the $$$ they already make, then what else do they have? What does that look like to the poor bastaaad flying a metroliner single pilot or a cessna 310 up and down the east coast at night in all sorts of weather.

Now before I get mistaken for someone who doesn't care about money, workrules, or "raising the bar" let me also say that I have also felt the pain of:
- "legal to start, legal to finish battles" with management,
-flying with a spineless captain who after 20hrs of duty in a 3man cockpit still wont call "fatigue" (when I didnt know better),
-having worked for free because the company ceased operations and bankrupcty proceedings paid me cents on the dollar for the flying i did
- starting over at the bottom again with first year pay...several times
- cleaning lavs for the super rich on their corporate jets
etc etc etc etc.......

My passion for flight and the sense of fulfillment that I get from having: "bucked the odds so far, from the accomplishments given my meager beginnings, and the happy marriage to a wonderful soulmate and from many other intangibles is what keeps me from becoming an embittered person.
It is so easy to embrace misery, blame others but it takes a real heart to keep on keeping on, and it is made easier if that heart is filled with passion and love for what you do. Show me a person who embraces gratitude and I'll show you a person who isn't easily "broken or beaten down"

I ask everyone this; In those moments when you break out of an overcast or when you shove the power levers forward or when you have the plane in your hands and not the autopilot's how many of you are thinking:
- God my pay sucks,
-My company sucks
-God, i have so much money,
-I sure did look cool walking through the terminal today in my full uniform

I doubt any of you who truly love to fly don't think any of the above.

Bottom line; I believe that if more people were in the industry for the right reasons and truly loved to fly....then there would be more unity, there would be more cohesiveness. there is nothing stronger than the heart of a volunteer. The colonists who beat a british empire, or the many "rebels" who liberated any country in the americas didnt bitch about money or prestige or other petty things, but funny how in the end....what we have here are powerful, wealthy, influencial countries participating in a world community with each playing their parts.

when Management sees a bitter, tired, embroiled workforce bickering among theirselves, they smile,

i wonder what results can be produced at any company with a front line manned by aviators with a real sense of brotherhood that can only come from being grateful for what they have.....their genuine passion and love for flying.

Which leads me back to the question.......WHY? Why do you want to fly professionally?


Just my humble and honest perspective.

 

[CSY Mon]

Why do you want to be a professional pilot? (not weekend warriors) If you can't answer that question, or if it's for the prestige and money then I believe you are in for the world of hurt and misery, and a 9-5 cubicle would be more to their liking.

Well said.

The non-sced world is hard work, regardless of which firm ya work for.

I did non-sced for 12 years, the long hauls, the old crappy India birds, the whole nine yards.
Then I went to a Major and though I died and went to Disney Land. Then I got furloughed after 9/11 and went back to non-sced heavy freight.
Still here and reading this stuff.

I agree with Metrodriver and a few other posters: Don't talk loud, don't count yer chickens, don't ******************** on other non-sced guys and keep a low profile in this world: The more ya talk aroud here, the less ya know.

 

[mrvmo]

Hate to say it CSY.............but.............well said!:beer:

 

[B737Dvr]

Like I said, i have been able to get past the pile of resume with the help of friends. It is friends that make my flying all the more enjoyable!

 

[metrodriver]

Fogrunner: I wished you would keep peoples names or initials of public boards like this. If you feel that personal, send a pm. I think you owe an apology. Hit the edit key and remove them.

Das Air lost the rights to europe because they pissed off the Ducth CAA after returning with an aircraft that was still broken after an inspection and gave the CAA some lip about it. Das Air is confident that they will get their rights back soon. I've been on a Gemini flight that has been grounded by authorities till it got fixed. So Das Air is not alone in this. Shortly after this incident the lease company that owned four of their airplanes got sold to or by D Trump and somehow the new owner broke the lease and sold the aircraft. One of them now flies for Arrow.

Only one of our planes is flying DHL, the one in Brussels. Both planes out of Oostende are purely Das Air flights. Das Air is a lot bigger player than you think. They have a lot of lucrative belly capacity to / from various parts of the world, including the US. The parent company ownes more airlines than just Das Air, and soon the Das Air fleet will be registered in Britain, just like MK Airlines and a few others that are now registered in cheaper places.

Avient: was looking for 5 DC10's last year. 24 hr duty days: don't look further than Amerijet or Centurion. Thanks to our contract we are limited to 16.
And for that I am thankful for a contract (eventhough it should be a FAR, like on the MD11), everybody's safety is at stake here, including yours and your family's. Talking about contract, I think there was a lot more possible pay wise. I just think that scare tactics, bribes and soon to be retirees who didn't want to wait any longer resulted in a 51% pass

Furloughs: I've been through two already. One called me back last summer so I could work for them the last quarter and then to be furloughed AGAIN! I know how it feels to be junior and a fleet is being parked. I really hope it won't happen to the new class, but those guys definately have to keep it in the back of their mind.

The reasons I didn't go to the 11 were personal, just awful bad timing combined with some other things.

Oh yeah: I just read: Aeroflot has signed a contract to lease 6 MD11's to supplement their DC10 cargo operation. I bet that were 6 planes Gemini was looking at........

Now mister fogrunner: hit the edit key on your post and remove those initials

 

[Cold_Outside]

Strawman

I've heard (i.e. rumor, not facts) around the western U that the owner of Cielos bought Centurion for the sole purpose of farming out their flying to Cielos; effectively circumventing cabotage laws. Same with MTA, basically just for freight going to/from brazil. Supposedly they just keep one or two -10s flying on Centurions Cert. to keep it alive.

Judging from how much cielos pays they their miami "based" Crews and how much they spend on mx (not) they'd save a bundle...

Any takes on this?

 

[metrodriver]

Cielos and Centurion have had the same owner for a long time. Cielos now has unrestricted access to the US as long as they are subchartered by Centurion. Same as LAN does. They own subsidiary airlines in several countries (Florida West in the US) with only one airplane each just to get unlimited access to those countries. Look around the Eastern U and look at all the 767-300's. All N-numbers end at LA

 

[Cold_Outside]

Cielos and Centurion have had the same owner for a long time. Cielos now has unrestricted access to the US as long as they are subchartered by Centurion. Same as LAN does. They own subsidiary airlines in several countries (Florida West in the US) with only one airplane each just to get unlimited access to those countries.

LAN is using a US Airline with US crews for flights requiring such.

Centurion is using a peruvian airline with peruvian crews for those flights.

I fail to see how that's the same.

Besides, Florida West operates I think two or three airplanes, MAS has two and ABSA has two as well.

 

[metrodriver]

FWL has one plane. There is a LAN plane that has a note on the nose gear doors "operated for Florida West Airlines". There are a host of airlines that are being chartered by LAN and operate under their own call sign or the FWL call sign. So by using a FWL call sign LAN can use foreign crews to move the cargo. There is just so much cargo that they still need outside help (and when times are weak they can dump the help and do the job with their own fleet).
Quite a few countries in S. America want to protect their own industry from LAN and put restrictions in place. To circumvent that problem LAN will set up subsidiaries with local ownership (ABSA, MAS, FWL etc)

 

[CSY Mon]

True, I have flown hundreds of LAN flights using either the Florida West call sign, or our own.

Did the same years ago for a firm called Fast Air, they were LAN's cargo operation out of Santiago.

 

[mushroom]

I ask everyone this; In those moments when you break out of an overcast or when you shove the power levers forward or when you have the plane in your hands and not the autopilot's how many of you are thinking:
- God my pay sucks,
-My company sucks
-God, i have so much money,
-I sure did look cool walking through the terminal today in my full uniform

I can tell you definitively that at Tradewinds, when you have turned off the autopilot to hand-fly the last portion of the ILS, and you lose both flight directors so you are flying a raw data approach because you can't get an FD to re-engage (YET AGAIN), and the thrust levers are more than a handle width apart to keep the same N1, and you have written up those problems and so many others MULTIPLE times and they STILL are not fixed (YET AGAIN!)....

Then I can tell from personal experience that yes, you are definitely saying "My company sucks." Actually you are usually shouting it. Been there.